I couldn't decide on appropriate prerequisites, as there are multiple ways to look at it. Also, is -4 just too good, or it is fitting for a generally underwhelming combat ability?
Improved Demoralize (Combat)
Your opponents find you particularly terrifying.
Prerequisites: [ability score] 13, [feat].
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action.
Normal: Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Greater Demoralize (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes frightened of you.
Prerequisites: [feat], Improved Demoralize, BAB +6, [ability score] 13.
Benefit: Creatures that you cause to become shaken, frightened, or panicked suffer a -4 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Normal: Creatures that are shaken, frightened, or panicked suffer a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
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First impression: Improved looks reasonable. Charisma looks like the obvious ability score. Not sure if a feat prerequisite is necessary for actual balance reasons.
Greater: does the -4 also apply to fear conditions that you cause with other abilities, or only with Demoralize?
I'd actually expected Greater to demoralize as a Swift. Or perhaps as an iterative attack.
Imp. felt pretty straight forward, aside from the prereqs. Greater Feint didn't suggest a parrallel for Greater Demoralize.
As written, this version would improve the penalty of any fear condition from -2 to -4, not just demoralize. Is that too much? I'm just throwing this out to see what people think. My first idea was to get demoralize to take a shaken creature to frightened, but that might be too easily abused.
So, you say charisma? That was my first feeling on it, but what about Improved Feint requiring Combat Expertise and Int? I don't know anyone who thinks that makes 100% sense, but if we were to use the same logic, Improved Demoralize would require Power Attack and Strength. I'm not disagreeing with you, just discussing...
If it was "in place of an attack" the character would do it anywhere in a full attack or in place of an AoO.
I generally recommend against improving demoralize. It's already an option that if the player focuses on it, they will essentially always succeed at using it. The Intimidate skill scales far better than the paltry DC that it's used against, so these are much larger buffs. The DC for Feint scales a bit better, and it's also a less powerful effect overall. Removing some AC (at higher levels, it's often only 1 or 2 points worth of AC against the average foe) is great, but making the foe more susceptible to spells and less likely to hit is amazing. Also, keep in mind that AC is meant to be out-scaled by To-Hit bonuses.
The one decent thing about Intimidate is that unless you're some Rogue build, you have to use an action. But then, you're essentially guaranteed to succeed at it.
Just some things to keep in mind.
So you are saying that feint is OK to improve because feint is less powerful than demoralize? If demoralize only made the target shaken vs the intimidator (like feint), would that make it OK? What if the target was allowed to instead oppose demoralize with a skill check (like feint)?
Is this better or just as bad?
Improved Demoralize (Combat)
You are skilled at frightening your opponents in combat.
Prerequisites: [ability score] 13, [feat].
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action. However, if successful, the opponent is only shaken against you.
Normal: Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Greater Demoralize (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes frightened of you.
Prerequisites: [feat], Improved Demoralize, BAB +6, [ability score] 13.
Benefit: Creatures that you demoralize suffer a -4 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Normal: Creatures that are shaken suffer a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Conan d20 uses a similar feat, with the prerequisites of Charisma 13, Intimidate 8 Ranks and allows it as a free action (Steely Gaze).
However, I agree with Cheapy for the most part. I wouldn't make it anything less than a move action.
I was attempting to make demoralize equivalents of the feint feats, which I why I went with move action.
Would it be counter-productive to do so? Should I handle it without regard to the feint feats?
I was attempting to make demoralize equivalents of the feint feats, which I why I went with move action.
Would it be counter-productive to do so? Should I handle it without regard to the feint feats?
I think your first feat is great. I'm undecided on the second at the moment - I'm still trying to find a way to break it.=)
The first one in the OP is fine. Prereq should be {Cha 13} or {Str 13 and Intimidating Prowess} or {Int 13 and Bruising Intellect}, Intimidate 3 ranks. Let the fighters have some Nice Things for a change.
For Greater, I'd extend the duration and introduce Frightened in some way rather than just doubling the effect. Or this:
Mass Demoralise (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Demoralise, Intimidate 8 ranks, relevant stat 17+
Benefit: You may Intimidate all opponents within 30' as a move action.
Normal: Intimidate affects only one opponent.
True that you can get Intimidate up to quite impressive levels, but opponent HD does usually scale faster than skill ranks, so you'd need to sink more feats (Skill Focus, Intimidating Prowess) into this to make it overwhelming. And you can often do something better with a move action anyway.
I looked up those three feats, and they do indeed present good options for intimidating characters. However, I was glad to see that none of them do quite what my feats do. Frankly, considering the long existence of Improved Feint, I would be very surprised if no one else has ever made a feat similar to my Improved Demoralize.
You could always check out how I handled Improved Demoralize / Greater Demoralize in Psychological Combat.
*throws smoke grenade*
deuxhero:
Those feats have different prerequisites, and there might be a case where a PC wants to scare an enemy without bashing it's head in. That being said, the ability to cause a heightened fear condition in an enemy is something I included in another version of the Greater feat, but it was too easy to be abused the way i wrote it. You have given me reason though to modify these so that there is a benefit with or without the feats you mention.
Thats way better than bravery!
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You seem agitated. I'm trained in Sense Motive and internet only imposes my checks a -5.
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But how about my earlier idea? Demoralizing instead of an attack? If it's an iterative, then the same -5, -10 etc. would apply to the skill check.
I also think heightened fear conditions should be a thing. Maybe heightened fear conditions on the Improved, an multiple attempts on Greater. With the added limit that you can demoralize any single target only once per round, so that you can't focus-fire someone into Panicked in a single round.
"In place of an attack" is a good option too. I understand how it would work, applying a penalty based on which attack was given up, but I'm not so sure how to unambiguously word it. How would you do it?
I also like the idea of letting demoralize escalate a fear condition, but I would need to put some limits or conditions on it. Even low level spells have limits on how many times per day they can be used. Examples are: needing to roll sufficiently higher than the DC to escalate, requiring use of a standard action, perhaps that the target has less hit dice than the demoralizer. Just thoughts.
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fyi Rogue (Thug) gets:
Frightening (Ex): Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Thats a great example of what I'm talking about. Could that be turned into one of the feats?
Thug + enforcer feat + sap master.
For every 4 non-lethal damage you do with sap master, 1 round of the foe being frightened.