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I've made a guide to the Ninja! Comments, questions, and concerns are appreciated. Let me know if you disagree with anything, or if I've left anything out.
Part I: Introduction, Attributes, & Races
Part II: Ninja Tricks
Part III: Feats
Part IV: Equipment, Multi-Classing, & Builds
Looks nice! I checked, and you didn't mention Bewildering Koan; I thought I'd point it out in case it's an oversight. It's the one thing that makes a gnome ninja quite viable, as it can be ridiculously powerful if used well.
Ohoh... no mention of Bewildering Koan? The Gnome Ninja's of this world disagree...
Some rather shady advice here on combat trick:
Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.
Apparently it works the other way around for Rogues but not for the poor Ninja...
I've made a guide to the Ninja! Comments, questions, and concerns are appreciated. Let me know if you disagree with anything, or if I've left anything out.
I'm surprised you rate Tengu as a race so poorly. Tengu lets you get 3 attacks per round from 1st level without any negatives to hit (unlike 2 weapon fighting) and is feat free.
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I'm surprised you rate Tengu as a race so poorly. Tengu lets you get 3 attacks per round from 1st level without any negatives to hit (unlike 2 weapon fighting) and is feat free.I've made a guide to the Ninja! Comments, questions, and concerns are appreciated. Let me know if you disagree with anything, or if I've left anything out.
This. I'm surprised you didn't give some more love to the Natural Attack build, which is arguably the most effective Melee build (for a Ninja/Rogue) for a game capped at level 12 like PFS.
Consider that in PFS a TWF Ninja will at most have the following (base) attack routine with a two feat investment: +7/+7/+2/+2. That's end game. 4 attacks at reduced BAB with diminishing effectiveness for less than half your career.
Comparatively a Natural Attack build with Claw/Claw/Bite will have +9/+9/+9 for their entire career. And there are a few ways to get this without investing any feats, or fewer feats than the TWF chain. Another bonus is that if you happen to have a decent STR, you get the full bonus to each attack.
If you really & truly believe that more attacks are better (quantity over quality), and IF your GM allows you to take Multiattack (which they should, provided you meet the prerequisites), you can add on more secondary attacks via magic items or combo with Unarmed Strikes (improved via feats or Tricks) at a -2 penalty (Note: PFS restricts access to Beastiary Feats and as far as I know they are only legal from alternate legal sources; such as 10 levels of Ranger w/natural weapon combat style). You can do this without Multiattack, but your secondary attacks are at BAB -5 (the same as a character using manufactured weapons & high BAB), so it's still arguably better than the TWF build.
Haste & Ki benefit both builds, but you could argue they benefit the Natural Attack build more since they are made at a higher bonus - and for a 3/4 BAB class that has trouble hitting the +2 is crucial.
Also, I feel you undervalue CHA. I prefer something better than a 12, which is pretty much useless... It's the defining class feature that makes you better than a Rogue after all!
Lastly, how come no mention of Rogue Archetypes? There are a few that stack - like Scout, I believe. Scout makes the single weapon/two-handler builds pretty darn effective and should up their colour rating at least one step.
Overall I think it's a great guide that could be improved with the additional mention of a Natural Attack build.
Cheers,
D
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I kind of feel that maybe you should expand a bit on levels 1-9. Basically, you say "Once you get to level 10 and get greater invisibility all the time, you are awesome!" Thats cool and all, but maybe expand and give suggestions on how to be awesome prior to that? I mean, in PFS, that would mean you are awesome your last 2 levels.
It did give me some decent ideas for my character though.
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@ c#s and Krodjin - Thanks for pointing that out. I'll build up a Tengu Ninja and see how he turns out.
@ Krodjin - Rogue archetypes are definitely on their way. Thanks for reminding me.
Regarding Charisma: If you don't have any Ninja tricks that key off of charisma (and I wouldn't suggest it for most builds), then literately the only thing Charisma does for this build is give extra ki. However, there is a feat that gives two extra ki which you can take multiple time. In my mind, this means that every +1 modifier of Charisma is worth only half a feat.
Compare that to Constitution: Every modifier of constitution provides one hit point a level (=Toughness feat) and a +1 bonus to fortitude (=1/2 of the Great Fortitude Feat). In my mind, this means that every +1 modifier of Constitution is worth 1.5 feats.
Let's look at it a different way. You have 2 feats to use, and can make either Constitution or Charisma +1.
With Charisma +1, you can grab toughness and extra ki. You wind up with +3 ki and +1 hp per level.
With Constitution +1, you can grab extra ki twice. You wind up with +4 ki, +1 hp per level, and +1 fortitude. It is strictly better.
@ Koujaw: Unfortunately, that's the way the Ninja works. He's fine through level 9, then becomes amazing at Level 10. That's not to say you shouldn't play him at lower levels, just be prepared for an immense power boost at level 10.
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@ c#s and Krodjin - Thanks for pointing that out. I'll build up a Tengu Ninja and see how he turns out.
@ Krodjin - Rogue archetypes are definitely on their way. Thanks for reminding me.
Regarding Charisma: If you don't have any Ninja tricks that key off of charisma (and I wouldn't suggest it for most builds), then literately the only thing Charisma does for this build is give extra ki.
I don't want to use a feat for extra ki. I'm busy using it for stuff I can't get any other way than feats.
Also, skills. Bluff and Intimidate have good in and out of combat uses. Diplomacy is possibly the 2nd to 3rd most useful skill in the game. UMD can rock.
Multiclassing: Oracle (one level then extra revelation), Paladin, get that feat that gives you cool sorcerous bloodline powers.
I'm not saying an 18 in cha is a good investment. It's not. But a 14 or maybe a 16 (with the right racial combo; i.e. +2 cha +2 Dex) makes a lot of sense.
A skill section is needed.
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Multiclassing: Oracle (one level then extra revelation), Paladin, get that feat that gives you cool sorcerous bloodline powers....
A skill section is needed.
What revelations did you have in mind?
Eldritch heritage feat is mentioned, but not highly recommended.
I'm not sure a skill section is needed. Besides possibly Acrobatics (and bluff if you are feinting), there is nothing particular about a Ninja's skill choices that aren't obvious.
Some rather shady advice here on combat trick:
Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.
Apparently it works the other way around for Rogues but not for the poor Ninja...
Ultimate Combat has a download Errata that states:
The rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent.
- Page 70—In the Rogue Talents class feature, in the Ninja Trick entry, add the following after the first
sentence:
that makes it:
Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list (see pages 14–16). The rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.
This makes Rogue Talents = Ninja Tricks, since every named entry is the same as far as I know. Where it breaks down is Advanced Rogue Talents < Advanced Ninja Tricks, since Advanced Rogue Talents cannot select Advanced Ninja Tricks, but Advanced Ninja Tricks can select Advanced Rogue Talents.
/cevah
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What revelations did you have in mind?
Eldritch heritage feat is mentioned, but not highly recommended.
Revelations off the top of my head.
Battle, heaven/lunar for easy escapes, Metal, Time (free reroll), lunar/nature possible for flanking buddy with the right feat (one that increaes HD) and unarmed attacks.
I'm not sure a skill section is needed. Besides possibly Acrobatics (and bluff if you are feinting), there is nothing particular about a Ninja's skill choices that aren't obvious.
I think my mention of the skills is important ones for Cha are more of an argument for the importance of cha.
But skills are something that should be included because many people who are looking at a class guide are looking at for the first time; who maybe have never looked at a rogue-like build and are perhaps begining players.
That should be kept in mind.
Thanks for doing this and hope this is helpful.
Cool things! This actually got me interested in making a Ninja, never was too interested in the class before.
Likely going either Goblin or Monkey Goblin, regarding on whether I can take the FCB of Goblins for a Ninja.
Comments:
part 1
Dexterity: This does not affect melee unless you have the feat (or combat trick) Weapon Finesse.
part 2
Missed a word: "Ninja's get one Ninja Trick [every] even level, ..."
Combat Trick: If you do not take this, then you can use forgotten trick to temporarily grab any combat feat. Think Paragon Surge.
Flurry of Stars: The short range increment (10') makes this not so good.
Vanishing Trick: This is great for avoiding AoOs and being attacked in melee. I rate as blue(****). It and Weapon Finesse are priorities for a dexterity build.
Forgotten Trick: The Ring of Ki Mastery mitigates the cost, making this much better.
High Jumper: This gets much better at 10th level. You can now jump equal to your acrobatics skill rather than 1/4th.
Dispelling Attack: I would downgrade this due to needing Minor Magic and Major Magic talents first.
Master Disguise: You forgot a star in the rating.
part 3
Dazzling Display & Shatter Defenses: Not sure it works as well as you think. Full round to intimidate, within 30'. [You have good Charisma for the skill, right?] You can move at best 5'. You are squishy, and in easy striking range of everything you want to kill. Next round you get flat footed opponents.
Combat Patrol: set up AoOs.
part 4
Feather Step Boots: ignore difficult terrain
Ring of Ki Mastery: reduces cost of Forgotten Trick
Monk: Get Evasion at 2nd, and feats at 1st & 2nd. The saves also help.
Spellcasters: Cantrips = ranged touch attack for sneak attacks. Umd is much easier when you don't have to roll for 1/2 the spells. Oracles & Sorcerers are Charisma based, as is your Ki, so you get better spells here. Remember, a spellcaster dip is for versatility, not combat.
/cevah
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I'd boost Grippli from orange, Zenith.
Gripplis can produce their own level-scaling poison to use on their blades, and they start with a climb speed. From very early levels they can invisibly climb on the ceiling and drop, dealing Sneak Attack poison to their foes.
It may look like a niche trick, and isn't great after level 7 or so, but it's brutal at low levels.
Plus you are a frog ninja.
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The other thing is a multiclass option. Dervish Dancer Bard gives Kukris and a uniquely silent self-buff and Bard spells. You key off Dex and Cha like a Ninja.
@ c#s and Krodjin - Thanks for pointing that out. I'll build up a Tengu Ninja and see how he turns out.
The other advantages to this are that you are covering off bludgeoning, slashing and piercing with your natural attacks against DR. You also save a large amount of gold as you can apply a +1 bonus or equivalent to 3 weapon attacks for the price of 4000gp.
In an unrelated point, I found the scout archetype invaluable with the Ninja as it gives you an easy option for succeeding with a sneak attack given that this is not always an easy thing to do.
You should make mention of the feat Butterfly Sting from Faiths of Purity. It lets you transfer a crit to an ally. So with a feat and a high crit weapon, you could have an ally who 2-hands a high crit mod weapon (like a scythe) to tag-team people to death. Ninja gets the crit and transfers to the Barb who then does x4 damage on his next hit.
For the Unarmed Ninja you should add in the feat Knockout Artist.
Also, the Unarmed Ninja can be combined with the Sap Adept Ninja to devastating effect (Sap Master doubles Sap Adept and Knockout Artist). I built an NPC with this idea for use in my games and he turned out to be a pretty scary ambush enemy. Nikrii Lon was built with 15 pt buy and NPC wealth in a heroic fantasy game.
I do kind of feel that you're over-valuing TWF. Typically, TWF is awful for 3/4 BAB classes unless they can self-enhance their attacks (even then, it's iffy). Mainly, because they just don't have the attack bonus to keep up with it.
The Ninja can get away with it, though, because he can turn himself invisible. However it heavily relies on the enemy being susceptible to invisibility, and as levels rise, this becomes less and less reliable.
[Edit] Also, Wisdom should never be dumped on a class that has a bad Will save.
You should probably recommend a Wayfinder and a resonating Clear Spindle Ioun stone. It makes the Ninja immune to mind control/possession spells as per Protection from Evil.
Also, you count as your own ally for Butterfly Sting and other such effects.
Also, you count as your own ally for Butterfly Sting and other such effects.
Eh... If I could do enough damage to make my Crit worthwhile, then I wouldn't be taking Butterfly Sting in the first place. The whole point of Butterfly Sting is to be transfering your Crit that deals ~ok damage to someone who doesn't crit as often, but does massive damage when he does.
Though.... I guess it could be worthwhile to use Butterfly Sting to transfer the Crit from your Wakisashi Off-hand to your Light Pick mainhand or something.
Also, the Unarmed Ninja can be combined with the Sap Adept Ninja to devastating effect (Sap Master doubles Sap Adept and Knockout Artist).
Has this issue been resolved? I never saw an FAQ on it...
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@ Kerney: Which specific reevaluations inside those Mysteries did you have in mind? I'm not seeing any that would justify a curse and delaying of sneak attack and BAB.
@ Bigdaddyjug: It seems like you disagree with one thing - TWF. I'm building up a natural attack Tengu and strength ninja to compare.
@ Cevah: Thanks, edited little places.
@ Captain K: Good point, I've upped them to green.
@ Tels: Added knockout artist. Excellent point about Butterfly sting, that's a great addition.
Added a bit on Archetypes in the first section.
For those espousing the natural weapon Tengu doctrine - is this a strength or a dexterity/finesse build?
For those espousing the natural weapon Tengu doctrine - is this a strength or a dexterity/finesse build?
Tengu Ability adjustments +2 DEX +2 WIS -2 CON
@ Bigdaddyjug - The feat list would be great, but level 8 or 12 would be fine.
So people seem to think finesse is the way to go with natural attacks? Alright, I'll build that out and see what it looks like.
Tieflings could also go STR as they have an alt race that give +2 STR, +2 CHA -2 INT. But light armor and low DEX plus high damage output seems like asking for trouble. Then again Mithral Breastplate and Armor Expert work out nicely.
Up to level 4 or so where you can afford the agile AoMF STR is prolly better but afterwards DEX likely pulls ahead.
Also note since the natural weapon path ties up so few Feats you can also use the following trick. Get the blade of mercy trait. Since claws deal piercing and slashing damage you can deal nonlethal damage with claws. Now they qualify for Enforcer, Sap Adept and Sap MAster.
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Tengu Bite/claw/claw ninja is in: Blackbeak. Let me know if there is anything I seriously messed up.
He handily outshines the classic ninja in the earlier levels, though the difference decreases over time. At level 12ish the classic ninja begins outshining the Tengu, but who really plays that long anyway? An extremely good choice if you don't mind being a Tengu, Tiefling, or similar, and I've marked it as such in the guide.
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If I ever get to go to lunch, I'll make a level 12 version of the tiefling natural attacker. Also, be on the lookout for a trait called Militia. It gives a +1 on attacks you execute while in a flanking position. I think it is from UCam and just screams rogue to me. I'm actually having trouble deciding on just two traits for my tiefling natural attacker. Fate's Favored (to go with Jingasa), Indomitable Faith, and Militia are all very attractive.@ Bigdaddyjug - The feat list would be great, but level 8 or 12 would be fine.
So people seem to think finesse is the way to go with natural attacks? Alright, I'll build that out and see what it looks like.
You could always take extra traits for two more. Armor Expert for a Mithral Breastplate for the fourth, perhaps?
How fun is the ninja during early levels?
For the Blackbeak build, doesn't the Scout archetype combine with the Tengu rogue archetype swordmaster? With trance replacing no trace rather than trap sense? Or is that just a flawlessly commonsensical house rule that I've mistaken for RAW regarding applying rogue archetypes to ninjas?
Note on Multi-Classing : The Urban Barbarian Archetype(which rules!)
loses the +10 bump to speed.
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@ Secret Wizard: Out of combat? A blast. With skills and tricks, you can do a lot. In combat? If you have two or more potential flanking partners, great. If you only have one, then prepare to get frustrated a lot, and be unable to sneak attack. If you have no flanking partners then you are going to have a very, very tough time getting sneak attack.
@ Ethereal: Blackbeak isn't taking the sword master archetype, so there isn't any problem there. He's just taking the scout archetype.
@ Bongo: Good point, and darn. That makes it a less ideal option.
@Zenith: No, I know, but if it were possible, wouldn't taking sword master in combination with scout be the superior option? Anyway, I was just curious if that combo worked. Come to think of it I might be overestimating how much tiger trance could help a scout anyway...landing them combat maneuver checks and all...
Could you clarify something for me, Zenith?
I see you rate the feat Two-Weapon Fighting as four stars, yet you rate the Monk multiclass at two stars, citing that "flurry isn't helping you." It's my understanding that Flurry of Blows is essentially Two-Weapon Fighting with only a single weapon required. Why the stark difference in stars there?
I also see that you have no rating for Improved Two-Weapon Feint, even though it would seem appropriate to a character who likes getting sneak attacks while fighting with two weapons. Why is that?
-Matt
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@ Mattastrophic: A few things here. First, you can only flurry with some weapons, and the wakizashis are good for you anyway. Second, it's not just flurry, it's that many of the bonuses are better the more you commit to them (increasing fist damage). Dipping 3/4 Bab rests in wasted Bab as well. Also, many things key off of Wisdom, and we don't want to add that to the list of attributes we need.
That being said, if somebody presents a compelling argument I'm more than happy to consider it.
I meant to address improved TW feinting with TW feinting. It's not a bad option, but by the time you can grab improved you may as well wait for invisible blade and use that. Certainly viable if that is your style, and it can give you sneak attack more often. It's rated three stars, green, which means you should definitely consider it.
Funny thing about Improved Two Weapon Feint, it doesn't require Two Weapon Feint as a prerequiste to function.
Little error in the game, sure, but it may be something worth noting in the guide and and making mention it will likely get errata at some point.
Vanishing Trick: I use this all the time to avoids AoOs. I also use it to set up Sneak Attack.
High Jumper: Imagine jumping over 200 feet up. Here's how: Aerial assault - awesome concept, potentially impractical?
Dispelling Attack: You say "If you didn't need Major and Minor Magic, this would be a must have.", yet still give it 4 stars. Should that not be 3?
Feather Step Boots: Never worry about difficult terrain when trying to maneuver into flanking. Keep your speed when you easily cross a spot of Grease or rubble. Someone following you? Go across some difficult terrain and loose them. I think these are a must.
Spellcasters: You mention Oracle revelations offset by their curse. Sorcerers have bloodline abilities and no curse. Witch has a number of good spells, including CLW; a hex; and a familiar. Also remember, activating scrolls in class is much easier than via UMD.
/cevah
Tengu Bite/claw/claw ninja is in: Blackbeak. Let me know if there is anything I seriously messed up.
He handily outshines the classic ninja in the earlier levels, though the difference decreases over time. At level 12ish the classic ninja begins outshining the Tengu, but who really plays that long anyway? An extremely good choice if you don't mind being a Tengu, Tiefling, or similar, and I've marked it as such in the guide.
Thanks for including this as a build option. My Tengu natural attacking ninja has actually gone with a combination of natural attacks/scout/sap mastery foci for PFS play. I've purchased a merciful amulet which is a cheap way of getting the sap mastery to work on any of my natural attacks. At 5th level, if I can catch someone flatfooted, I do 1d3 + 7d6 + 24 points of damage with one of my attacks.
Since when can Ninja take Rogue archetypes? I thought they couldn't take Rogue archetypes because Ninja is, essentially, an archetype itself.
Since when can Ninja take Rogue archetypes? I thought they couldn't take Rogue archetypes because Ninja is, essentially, an archetype itself.You can take multiple archetypes, so as long as they have access to the class abilities to give up, it's fine. There are only 3 or 4 archetypes ninjas can take: sanctified rogue, scout, and a couple others.
So Ninja Scout works? Huh, odd how the two most powerful Rogue archetypes stack...
Kitsune with their stats are a good choice i would say.
Add in realistic likeness and fox form feats and it becomes really formidable!