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This guy, that is.
I became fascinated with this archetype recently and saw that, while fragile, it has amazing potential if handled properly. It breaks down into three builds: The Sohei/Paladin blend, the Flurry Paladin, and a Variant Reach Paladin.
I'm still working on supplemental equipment/spells sections, but the central material is finished. Please let me know what you think.
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I read your guide with interest. Some ideas to consider.
A good point on the Temple Sword; I'll add that as a note. You may forget, though, that Power Attack does still work better for two-handed weapons, even if you are flurrying.
Good point about the exotic weapon proficiency; that also gives some more points to the Half-Elf, who can trade in their weapon focus for a free Exotic Weapon Proficiency. However, are you sure about the Meteor Hammer being a monk weapon? It's not listed as such in Ultimate Equipment (which I'm looking at in front of me). The Kyoketsu Shoge looks like it would work, though its damage is very uninspiring for a feat (1d4, 20x2).
Good point about increasing in size; I'll add something about that in there.
Yeah, I have to develop a section for prestige classes; Living Monolith is a good possibility, especially since you can get Endurance from an imbedded Ioun Stone.
Amazingly excellent point about the Mithral Kikko; that seems like the obviously superior option, since it frees up a trait. I'll definitely add that in.
It's true about the PFS level range, which makes the Sohei/Paladin blend somewhat less amazing. I'll try to add some notes about relative level ranges, and the virtues of each build at each point. All three builds are extraordinarily similar for the first 5 levels or so, though.
Thank you so much for the detailed feedback. I'll be sure to credit you in the document; I appreciate it.
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You're welcome :) I might give this a try soon enough, to grandfather in an aasimar.
You're right about the meteor hammer, I saw that wrong. Unfortunately, since it's a good option.
The Double-Chained Kama might be interesting too. While the damage isn't great, it looks like its Trip ability is pretty good. If you have to drop one of the ends to prevent a counter-trip, you can just pull on the other end. That text is a little bit ambiguous though.
I suppose the reach/flurry build could try to first trip someone at reach, then 5ft step in to continue the flurry. But I agree that the damage of the monk reach weapons is not so great.
I love this paladin archetype, have you pondered any non-multiclass build ideas?
@Ascalaphus: Started adding some of your suggestions in, including a new section after the builds, summarizing the power level of each version at every even level. More to go.
@Onyxlion: I have, but haven't come up with anything really striking. The fact that the Divine Bond can only apply to your Unarmed Strikes means that, at least at late level, you're going to be very suboptimal as a straight Paladin unless you're using Unarmed Strikes. And if you're going to be using unarmed strikes, I don't think there's any question that dipping one level into Sohei so that you can flurry (and get the boost to saves, always-act-in-suprise, and a bonus feat) is worth it.
The Reach Variant that I discuss does not have to dip, but I believe it's by far the worst of the three options I talk about.
Ah, that's a good point. Also, I've been thinking about it, and it's not going to be that amazing for this guy. From Paladin 8 through Paladin 15, his Unarmed Strike is 1d8. If he's enlarged, that's 2d6. If you add impact, that's 3d6. So, a +2 enchantment to add 1d6 damage... not that impressive.
Though vicious has some potential, given Lay on Hands shenanigans.
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Now, for something that is actually helpful to the guide, Blessed Touch trait might be a good contender, to help LoH. Its not great, but for a multiclass build, the extra+1 will help at lower levels. Especially if you don't have a better trait to take.
Also, for an unarmed strike-focused build, Master of Many Styles might be worth 2 levels for Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity. 3:1 Power Attack ratio, and 1.5*Str on all attacks is nice. It doesn't give you Armored-Flurry[alas, Sohei and MoMS both modify bonus feats, and thus don't stack], but you can mimicreplace that with Two-Weapon Fighting. Or, if you still want to be a Sohei, there is Horn of the Criosphinx for a nasty opening strike.
I'm honestly very unimpressed by Blessed Touch, though it could be acceptable if the GM was one that allowed retraining of traits later.
I also think that if you're going to go without armor, then this archetype is not worth taking; just be a monk instead. That being said, the Dragon Style feats are a really good idea to just take as normal feats for the Flurry Paladin version of this build. Dragon Ferocity does unfortunately require Stunning fist, though.
Hmm... combining the two suggestions, could you take Dragon Style as a normal feat at, say, level 5, and then dip into Unarmed Fighter, getting Dragon Ferocity as the free style feat? Or is it unambiguous that the free style feat is only the ones that actually say "Style"?
I love this paladin archetype, have you pondered any non-multiclass build ideas?
I'll personally say that I was a bit wary of why you can't just be a paladin in light armor with a 2 handed weapon. Sure, the offense is somewhat different, but this archetype allows a more flexible code and you can use your replacement for smite on anything (and spend ki to get through that DR). So it was a fair enough trade.
Divine bond looks nice (getting through some alignment DR without spending smite, great), but it is not a complete loss if you switch it to armor boosting with Oath against Fiends.
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Seems I misread the variant size Monk unarmed strike table. I guess re-sizing isn't so wonderful after all. Though more natural reach is nice of course.
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I think the guide should have an aside on whether or not mounted combat could be worth it. After all, the Sohei has very easy access to those feats and possibly the Monastic Mount. Is it worth using any of those options?
I think it might be interesting for the halfling; using the Sohei bonus feats you can pick up Ride By and Spirited Charge, considerably increasing damage. (And of course small creatures riding medium mounts have an easier time in dungeons.)
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Another option worth considering is Improved Grapple. Whether it's worth is will depend on whether you're the only warrior in your group (if so, probably not). And it won't always be useful; some monsters aren't good for grappling.
However, qualification is easy and it's there as a monk bonus feat if you want it. And against some opponents, it completely breaks their strategy (like casters, cavalry/ride-by, or archers that don't provoke).
Again for the halfling, I think this gives you a way to "gain their attention". Against Large+ opponents you have Risky Striker, against medium opponents Grapple is workable.
I thought there was a way to start grappling people as an AoO, but I can't seem to find it. The best I can find is to use Imp. Trip -> Ki Throw -> Binding Throw, but that's a bit longer a feat chain than I like.
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On the whole I like that this archetype doesn't have a big long mandatory feat chain attached.
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Also, since Nagaji are going to be PFS-legal soon, I think they deserve a mention as a race; they have the right stat adjustments after all. Not as godly as Aasimar, but more available.
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@Cazin: The problem is that you can't usually add a stat to itself. So you can't replace Dex with Cha, then add Cha to Cha. (Also, you're adding Cha to Dex, which you're no longer using anymore.) It uses some pretty ambiguous rules and is probably not legal. Different GMs are very likely to interpret it differently.
In other words, not recommended for PFS.
Tiefling favored class bonus is amazing for any straight paladin.
Okay, first, here's what I added about Mounted Combat. Let me know if anyone disagrees; I have zero experience playing Mounted Combat characters.
That’s a tricky proposition, however; the only way I can see to do it without completely changing the build into something else is if you GM allows the Eldritch Heritage trait to be applied to the Sylvan Wildblooded Bloodline to grab the Animal Companion. It’s not clear whether that is allowed by RAW or not, but I would lean toward no.
Tiefling favored class bonus is amazing for any straight paladin.
Thank you for the tip, but I'm not going to put any third party stuff in the guide; it's just too much to consider, and more often than not, not allowed.
@Flawed: There is no official FAQ about it, I don't believe, but James Jacobs has essentially said that "charisma" is a type of bonus, and thus does not stack with itself. Now, yes, JJ is not an "official" rules source, but most DMs (myself included) take his stance on rules seriously when there is nothing contradicting him.
That being said, even if you could add double your charisma bonus, it would still be capped by your armor, and so wouldn't be as amazing as you might think. Not worth a dip in my opinion, but I'll add it as a note to the dips section when I get to that.
As far as Noble Scion, I'll add that to the feats section, but I don't consider it worth taking myself. First, you're not going to be completely dumping dexterity, and it replaces dex with cha for initiative, it doesn't add cha. On the whole, Improved Initiative will be better, especially since you don't have to take it at first level. I wouldn't bother with that feat myself either, though, as this guy won't have good initiative regardless, and he always gets to act in the surprise round no matter what his initiative is.
I think that I am not understanding how Flurry of Blows works when you have a monk that has taken levels in a non-monk class.
Why is only a single dip into Sohei Monk needed. You get Flurry at -1/-1 only?
-- david
I understand, and I'll definitely add it as a good possibility in there in the feats section, but I just don't personally think initiative is worth investing in for this guy. For example, the Noble Scion feat only puts him on par with higher dex characters, it doesn't surpass them.
It's not an arms race as I see as a good investment, especially as he'll have Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon in most cases, letting him do battlefield control even when flat-footed. To have a reasonable chance of going first, you'd need Noble Scion, Reactionary and Improved Initiative, and you'd still be beaten by a lot of other builds.
I think that I am not understanding how Flurry of Blows works when you have a monk that has taken levels in a non-monk class.
Why is only a single dip into Sohei Monk needed. You get Flurry at -1/-1 only?
-- david
It's generally understood that, whatever the exact wording, that when flurrying you treat BAB from your monk levels as equal to your monk level; BAB from other classes is added to that normally. So, a Monk 1 / Paladin 10 would be treated as having a +11 BAB when flurrying.
If you're not 100% convinced, the Pathfinder RPG Conversion Guide includes the following text:
...monk’s base attack bonus when performing a flurry of blows is now equal to his level. His attacks are made as if using Two-Weapon Fighting (and its improvements at later levels). Table 3–10 summarizes these bonuses. Change your flurry of blows base bonuses to match these values (plus any increases to your base attack bonus from other classes, which might give you additional attacks with your primary strike).
Emphasis mine.
As Flawed said, you do lose out on the second flurry attack monks get at Monk 8 (though the Sohei/Paladin Hybrid will get eventually get there, at character level 12, under the suggested build). That's much less important, though, than getting the first extra attack at full BAB, and the ability to use ki to add a third attack at this full BAB.
Haven't looked through the guide yet but monk's robe should be a good investment to increase unarmed damage. Treated as a monk of five levels higher so 1/2 paladin level +5.
I have them in the guide, but I consider them a very poor choice. Even if you can convince your DM that they should increase your effective Monk level by 5 (by RAW reading, they would not be helpful to you at all), that's at best a 1.5 or 2 damage increase. You're much better off using the same item slot, to get a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes +2, then treat yourself to something nice with the 1000 gp you saved.
Ah, I get it now. We always played that the "flurry" column was just monk and bab did not stack with it.
Wow, some of our monks just got a heck of a lot better!
-- david
Tiefling favored class bonus is amazing for any straight paladin.Thank you for the tip, but I'm not going to put any third party stuff in the guide; it's just too much to consider, and more often than not, not allowed.
It's not third party. See here.
Oh! Weird; d20pfsrd lists it as third party under the Paladin page; "Jon Brazer Enterprises". Not the first mistake on that website, though.
Thank you for correcting me; I'll definitely make a note of it under the Tiefling entry in that case.
EDIT: Ah, it seems that it was a third party option that was later made an official one by the Advanced Race Guide.
Yeah; added that, and upgraded the rating of the race for the "full" Paladin builds. That's a really fantastic favored class bonus.
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You mention multiclassing with other classes with Iroran Paladin as the primary class. It might be worth mentioning how nice 2 levels of Iroran Paladin can be for a Swashbuckler.
Swashbucklers often like to dip paladin in order to get their Cha bonus to their otherwise weak saves. An Iroran Paladin dip gets both that and +2 AC from the deal.
Is Swashbuckler one of those new classes? I'm not familiar.
However, I should add a note that anyone dipping into Paladin 2 levels for Divine Grace is likely to prefer this archetype. The only exceptions I can think of are if you really want the armor proficiency as well, or if you're dipping Divine Hunter for the Precise Shot.
Okay, except the other classes dipping into Iroran Paladin thing, which I think I've incorporated all of the suggestions so far, and gave credit as appropriate. Let me know if I missed you, though!
Cool; I'm not going to go into detail about any of those classes, but I did add a relevant note about the Paladin 2 dip; thanks for that.
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It's a good dip for bards and perhaps magi; classes that can cast in light armor without fuss. Better for bards because of the shared love for Charisma.
I think you're right about Mounted Combat; probably not worth it. But since the Sohei has this conspicuous ability, I think it deserves a comment, even if just to warn against it.
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How does Monastic Legacy interact with the Unarmed Strike Damage progression? Is it any use?
My a strict RAW reading, Monastic Legacy is useless:
Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage.
So, in say, a Paladin 8 / Monk 1 build, by RAW, you'd be adding half of your non-monk levels (4) to your monk level (1) to determine your effective monk level (5) for your based unarmed strike damage. But Paladin 8 already gives you an effective monk level of 4.
However, a GM might allow you to stack half your paladin level (4) with your effective monk level (also 4), to get an effective monk level of 8 for unarmed strike damage. Effectively, it would be giving you full monk unarmed strike damage progression from your Paladin levels. I'd definitely allow it, as it's not overpowered:
It's giving you +1 average damage at Paladin 4-11, +2.5 damage at Paladin 12-15, +3.5 damage at Paladin 16-19. Good for a later pick, but not overpowered.
I'll add a note about it.
Hmm... Though not legal for PFS play, the Chevalier looks like it has some potential here. Three levels of it, and you can qualify for the Champion of Irori prestige class, due to Smite Evil.
I'm trying to work out the best way to build it.
Monk (Sohei) 6 / Chevalier 3 / Paladin (Iroran Paladin) 9 / Champion of Irori 2 seems the best place to end up. Not sure the best order, though.
Paladin 1 > Monk 1 > Paladin 4 > Monk 3 > Chevalier 3 > Champion of Irori 2 > Monk 6 > Paladin 9, perhaps.
You can Smite Evil, Smite Chaos, and have Personal Trial. Does take a while to get going, though, and lags behind the other builds at levels 8-10
Alternately, you could tack it on after the Sohei flurry is reached:
Paladin 1 > Monk 1 > Paladin 4 > Monk 6 > Chevalier 3 > Champion of Irori 2 > Paladin 9.
Need to ponder it a bit before adding it to the guide. Thoughts are very welcome.
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Even if you don't go into the Champion, the Chevalier is good on its own.
The Champion is pretty cool in general, but particularly if the GM likes to throw mobs of monsters at you; it has a large number of powers that require you to be facing multiple monsters at once (Sweeping Smite, Valiant Stand, Whirlwind Smite, and using Ki Pool to get additional Smite uses).
Note that Smite Chaos gives you "gains an additional use of his paladin's smite evil ability." - not sure if that would give you more Smites if you got them from Chevalier.
I noticed that you advocate only two levels of Champion - why exactly? For the Ki Pool ability (which is amazing - getting additional Smites - if it works)?
Yeah, it's clear that Champion of Irori was written for Paladin/Monk, despite the fact that prestige classes aren't supposed to do that (that is, they are supposed to be based on abilities, not classes).
The second level ability is key, as you say. With a Ring of Ki Mastery, you spend 1 ki to get a Smite Evil use.
Everything after that is fairly uninspiring in my opinion. The third level ability is nice if you're doing an unarmed build. However, since this build requires at least 3 levels of monk anyway, it lends itself much better to the Sohei Polearm flurrier, in my opinion. I'm now thinking something like.
Paladin 1 > Monk 1 > Paladin 2 > Monk 6 > Chevalier 3 > Champion of Irori 2 > Paladin 4 > Monk 8 > Paladin 7, ending at
Monk 8 / Paladin 7 / Chevalier 3 / Champion of Irori 2
The fourth level ability is terrible, since as a reach build, you're trying *not* to be adjacent to enemies. The fifth level ability is useless because you don't have wisdom.
If I was doing an unarmed build, the third level of Champion of Irori is probably worth taking, but I wouldn't go any farther than that. Probably:
Paladin 1 > Monk 1 > Paladin 4 > Monk 3 > Chevalier 3 > Champion of Irori 3 > Paladin 11
ending at: Monk 3 / Chevalier 3 / Champion of Irori 3 / Paladin 11
But, honestly, I do think this combo is much better suited to the Sohei version.
Ugh; and I haven't taken into account the potential in dipping into the Sentinel prestige class for the Unarmed version.
This Guide is turning out to not be so "mini" :/
Added a Prestige Classes section. Am I wrong in thinking the following thing is pretty cool?
After Monk (Sohei) 6 / Paladin 4, do:
Fighter (Unbreakable) 1 > Living Monolith 1 > Stalwart Defender.
The requirements of Living Monolith and Stalwart Defender line up well, especially since Living Monolith 1 gets you a free Toughness feat.
Enlarged, polearm flurrying, stalwart defender? Can use Lay on Hands to flip off his own fatigue if needed.
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The stalwart defender is a bit of a mixed bag. The abilities are okay, and Uncanny Dodge is something this Dodge-dependent build REALLY needs. But the Defensive Stance is a bit annoying, because you're not allowed to move. I suppose wearing a Cord of Stubborn Resolve would get around that though.
The Sentinel...
- Symbolic Weapon is actually better than the very slow Unarmed Strike progression.
- Bonus feats are nice. Counting as a fighter is very nice: it opens up Weapon Specialization.
- Divine boons 1&2 are quite good
- Divine Quickness is good; a bonus to Initiative always is
- Aligned Strike doesn't do anything you Ki pool doesn't already do
- Stalwart makes up a little for having only one strong save. Only a little bit though. But remember to ask for every monster's SLA whether it's divine!
- Practiced Combat is nice, particularly because unarmed strikes can be used for pretty much all maneuvers. It's not a very important bonus though.
- Righteous Leader is just a free feat, because your Charisma bonus to Leadership means you have a maximum-level cohort anyway. Note that the Champion of Irori code of conduct prohibits having a cohort.
- Unstoppable Warrior is pretty good; DR 10/Chaotic is is much better than DR/Evil, since PCs face evil creatures all the time, chaotic only some of the time.
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This might be a good entry into Dragon Disciple as well. You still have the fabulous saves of a base paladin. The Ki pool would help natural weapons as well as any others, and since you don't have flurry, you can still use unarmed attack in addition you dragon natural attacks. You also have the charisma to get Eldritch Heritage Abyssal or Orc for a huge bonus to STR in addition to the Dragon Disciple STR bonus.
I suppose wearing a Cord of Stubborn Resolve would get around that though.
If your DM allowed custom items, so that you could also put a strength bonus on there, that would be great. If not, though, the build I desccribed can have the fatigue mercy on his lay on hands, so can remove his fatigue using LoH 2+CHA/day if he needs to move.
Tiefling favored class bonus is amazing for any straight paladin.Thank you for the tip, but I'm not going to put any third party stuff in the guide; it's just too much to consider, and more often than not, not allowed.
What third party? i'm talking about the tiefling paladin favored class bonus from the advanced races guide
Paladin Add +1 to the amount of damage the paladin heals with lay on hands, but only when the paladin uses that ability on herself.