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Core and APG only. Some bestiary 1, 2, 3 familiar stuff is permitted with improved familiar.
Making a long story short and spoiler free (Kingmaker):
We got TPKd at the end of book 3 of Kingmaker in the most idiotic TPK I have ever experienced. The frustration... Gah... I don't want to think about it.
Anyway. Now we're making new characters. My previous character was an elf wizard (conjurer) who was pretty kickass. I decided to change my game up this time so I'm making a gnome illusionist and I want advice.
First of all, I've always had this impression that gnomes were MADE to be illusionists. I mean gnome illusionists are pretty iconic back since whenever... But when I decided to throw one together in PCGen I noticed that they don't actually get an int bonus. They get a charisma bonus, which is... Questionably useful...
Either way, I still want to play a wizard rather than a sorcerer, especially since we are bound to run into undead and I don't want to be stuck with the limited spell set of a sorcerer.
So preferably, I want to make the most out of playing a gnome illusion specialist. Any ideas?
Idk. Careful rationing of mirror image, greater invisibility etc. Miss chance is your friend since Armor class is not. I would look at offense next, let that determine your choice of opposition schools.
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Have a look at Craft Construct. mix illusion with Animated Objects/Golems charisma for Bluff and Diplomacy. as a wizard you want to be diverse. as an illusionist you want to have something that can fight for you and meat shields is a reasonable choice.. if crafting is allowed you will be everyone's best friend if you have all the craft Feats.
Daenar: What do you think about Necromancy and Enchantment as opposition schools?
Kikidmonkey: Good idea.
Humphrey: I would like to avoid crafting on account of my previous character being something of a crafter.
My new character is something of an anti-thesis to the previous one (who had illusion and necromancy as opposition schools).
Consider sorcerer, maybe always have plenty of illusions while still having some backup spells.
Of late I am taking notice of the gems in illusion school :). I think necro is OK to give up enchantment is easy peasy. Heck if you see a couple spells from either that you can't do without , you can still learn/prep them it's just more difficult and slot wise more costly.
Pathfinder Gnomes are exceptional illusionists because of Effortless Trickery.
You need that feat to excel.
Undead are immune to mind effecting spells. Figments arent included in that description. Silent Image fools undead like it will everyone else.
I'd dump evocation before necromancy. There are plenty of damaging spells available in the conjuration school and I have way too much fun stealing the bad guy's minions via Command Undead. YMMV.
davidvs: Looks great, but this is Core and APG only :(
Experiment 626: I'll think about it. Necromancy does have potential :D
I'm writing up stats now. I decided to skip Evocation and Enchantment.
The thing is, I will probably need Magic Missile. Is it possible to use a wand of a spell from an opposition school?
Very much so. Scrolls, too.
Oh. Intriguing!
So... I've never really messed around with staff crafting before. When you use the craft staff to craft, well, staffs, can you create ANY staff you want using the staff creation rules or does it have to be a premade staff from the rulebook?
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The rules allow you to create ANY kind of staff.
The ones that are already in existence can be duplicated as well. Just staffs are usally super expensive once you get into the good ones. they typically start at 20k.
the staff with magic missle and shield is this:
Staff of minor Arcana Costs 8,000g
Staff of fire 18,950g not a bad price for a staff with wall of fire.
Create staff is a late game feat as well. really isn't worth it unless you have the down time to craft them. I would rank Craft wondrous item the best craft feat. Followed by Scribe scroll and Craft rod. Saving money on a few items could help you afford one of those cheaper staffs.
That sounds like a plan. Craft Staff is level 11, and we'll start at level 9.
So I'm leaning towards using Craft Rod now, or picking some other feat instead.
Evangelos Diodoros Rex
Gnome Illusionist 9
(opposition: Evocation, Enchantment)
Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha
8 10, 12, 22, 10, 10
AC 13
Int +4
Improved Familiar (Voidworm)
Improved Initiative
Craft Rod
Craft Wondrous Item
Combat Casting
<ONE MORE FEAT>
But which one?
I've considered the following two:
Spell Penetration
Defensive Combat Training
There's probably some stuff I'm missing.
It's too bad that you don't wanna go Sorc. Especially when you start at level 9. Would be only two more levels to get that sweet +5 DC to all illusion spells (gnome bonus, greater spell focus, arcane bloodline + robes of arcane heritage). The extra +1 DC to all meta magic (persistent color spray, anyone?) doesn't hurt either.
Ah well...
I'd definitely go for greater spell focus illusion and use the shadow spells. They work against any kind of creature (with the possible exception of magic-immune golems) and are ridiculously versatile. Just the fact that shadow conjuration allows you to summon monsters as a stardard action is completely awesome. Who cares if undead are immune to mind-affecting spells when you can summon a crocodile to grapple them? Or cast a shadow-y create pit? Or just blast them with an not-quite-illusionary fireball?
I'd argue a gnome illusionist (especially the aforementioned sorc) with the shadow spells can cover pretty much any situation with a bit of ingenuity. It does take a decent amount of knowledge of the different spells but that's pretty much exactly what makes such a character so interesting.
Edit: I'll just leave that here:
1. Improved Initiative
3. Spell Penetration
5. Persistent Spell
7. [Spell Focus Illusion], Greater Spell Focus Illusion
9. Piercing Spell
11. Quicken Spell
13. [Spell Focus], Greater Spell Focus school of choice (Transmutation for Slow and Disintegrate?)
15. Spell Perfection: Phantasmal Web. Yes, it's mind-affecting but in most cases it's almost as good as mass Hold Monster.
PSusac:
That sounds like a very viable tactic, but I really don't like fairy dragons (the aesthetic concept). I also doubt the game master would allow it (being flown around, I mean)...
The AC bonus on the other hand. Hmmm...
Blave:
I tried statting a sorceror but realized after picking feats and so on that I don't get many skill points. I find that highly problematic. We're also playing 15 point buy and I rolled SPECTACULARILY low hitpoints (hp rolls without con adj: 6+1+1+1+2+2+3+4+5). I can't sacrifice any favoured class bonuses on skill points.
The group as it currently is:
Fighter
Arcane Archer
Bard
Oracle
So I really don't want to play a character without knowledge skills. The bard is going to have at most +8 (+3 class +1 ranks and +4 bard skill thing) in his knowledge skills.
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I didn't mention this before but I will mention it now.
Illusion spells are entirely based upon the GM. Meaning that if they don't know how to run and have illusions used against them then they are bound to fudge it up and you could be basically useless before them. But if they run Illusion spells properly it then falls unto you to use them properly and come up with the most creative ways to use them. Some illusion spells are straight and simple but when you get into the Image spells things start to get based on interpretations and the DM wins that battle every time.
Now I have collected a few bits of information to help me:
So I really don't want to play a character without knowledge skills.
We're also playing 15 point buy
I decided to skip Evocation and Enchantment.
Looks great, but this is Core and APG only :(
Making a long story short and spoiler free (Kingmaker)
especially since we are bound to run into undead
Lets start with:
especially since we are bound to run into undead
What exactly are undead immune to?
Undead are immune to death effects, disease,mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, phantasms, and patterns) , paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). Undead are not subject to ability drain, energy drain, or nonlethal damage. Undead are immune to damage or penalties to their physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. Undead are not at risk of death from massive damage.
Take not of the Bold part: mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, phantasms, and patterns)
This is actually a handful of Illusion spells. Off the top of my headUndead are immune to:
Color Spray, (partial immune)Haunting Mists, Hypnotic Pattern, Mad Hallucination, Dazzling Blade, (partial)Vision of Hell, Minor Phantom Object, Rainbow Pattern, Phantasmal Killer, Dream, Major Phantom Object, Phantasmal Web, Phantasmal Revenge, Scintillating Pattern, Weird
I probably missed a few...But as you can see Undead are rough enemies to be facing. Especially if your DM doesn't know how to properly run Illusion spell. (I do not know I'm just making assumptions.)
My recommendation for you is to specialize in something else other then illusions. Compared to the other schools of magic it is weak-sauce as a specialization school. You already played a conjuration specialist so I suggest:
A WITCH!!!!
Hexes are...well freaking awesome and can do lots of nasty things.
You also want to be about your Improved Familiar (Voidworm). Well a Witch gets a Familiar and typically always takes Improved familiar.
You also get a nice fat spell list to play with that comes from majorly from the wizard list.
Here are a few early feats and hexes I recommend:
Cauldron hex (Brew potions)
Improved Familiar (Voidworm)
Craft Wondrous Item
Improved Initiative
Flight Hex
Items I suggest:
Blouse, Cackling Hag’s. 6k for the cackle hex....I suggest this and a +4 headband of Int as your first 2 items.
You don't have to be a slumber witch if you do not want to but I know slumber really hurts those it effects. Makes fighting Animals and Magical beasts a breeze.
Blave:
I tried statting a sorceror but realized after picking feats and so on that I don't get many skill points. I find that highly problematic. We're also playing 15 point buy and I rolled SPECTACULARILY low hitpoints (hp rolls without con adj: 6+1+1+1+2+2+3+4+5). I can't sacrifice any favoured class bonuses on skill points.
The group as it currently is:
Fighter
Arcane Archer
Bard
OracleSo I really don't want to play a character without knowledge skills. The bard is going to have at most +8 (+3 class +1 ranks and +4 bard skill thing) in his knowledge skills.
Just one more example of why I hate rolling HP...
Anyway, most of the stuff I wrote is also true for Wizards Illusionists. Use the Shadow Spells and take a closer look at Phantasmal Web.
And consider fitting Greater Spell Focus Illusion in your build somewhere. I mean, what's the point of playing a specialist if you are not specialized as much as possible?
Fruian Thistlefoot:
That was a long and thoughtful reply! I appreciate it.
1: I can't say for sure, but I have reasons to believe that he will treat image spells "realistically". That is, monsters and opponents in combat run by him will tend to act a lot based on what they see (unless they're too stupid).
2: I can say for sure that we will run into SOME undead but I do not think that is the focus or even a notable part of this current book. Kingmaker, part 4.
A Fey Sorcerer would also be stellar for Kingmaker, the +2 DC to compulsion effects (confusion, anyone?). It also lets you skip Spell Penetration with the fantastic Fey Magic ability at 15th. It isn't hard to have a versatile spell list as a sorcerer and you can spend the remainder on scrolls to pad the gaps seeing you're starting at 9th level (you should have enough for a small library, and even a wand or two). Check out these two guides on the shadow spells and crank up your DC's and it's almost like having heighten spell on every battlefield control/blast in the game. Here's probably what I'd opt for with an Illusionist, but I don't know what your parties Bard, Arcane Archer and Oracle have covered (forinstance, if none of them are preparing Communal Protection from Evil I'd highly reccomend it.) If you coordinate with your party and grab scrolls for the situational spells (CL7 scrolls of communal resist energy, a scroll or two of tongues, dimensional anchor, break enchantment, knock and disguise self and maybe that magic missile/shield staff mentioned above (I think it's from Ultimate Equipment However).
2nd - Mirror Image, Levitate, Glitterdust, Detect Thoughts, Hideous Laughter (boosted DC)
3rd - Haste, Shrink Item, Displacement OR Heroism, Deep Slumber (boosted DC)
4th - Summon Monster IV OR Confusion (boosted DC), Shadow Conjuration (mage armor, web, communal mount, stinking cloud, spiked pit, sleet storm... arguably your party can save to see through your cloud spells, which is amazing.), Poison
5th - Shadow Evocation(darkness, dragon's breath (apg), resilient sphere, wall of ice, fire/ice shield for elemental resistance, hydraulic torrent (apg), fireball)
And to top it off you can use every sorc/wizard scroll you can purchase with no school restriction. I'd hardly call it limited. No-sir.
Otherwise what you have so far looks great. I would 100% skip Combat Casting if I were you (lets face it, if you're in melee you're going to be dimension dooring out or you'll soon be a smear on the tactical map). Have you looked at Spell Specialisation and later on Spell Perfection in one of your "Shadow X" spells. The extra CL tend to go a long way on blasts.
Hope this helps you some, consider me jealous you've gotten so far into Kingmaker. The universe just doesn't seem to want me to play that AP...
Last time we tried this we got TPKd though... It's only thanks to some GM modification of the adventure path that we can even continue playing this :P
Anyway I have another question.
Seeing that I'm playing a caster I think AT BEST I will be able to manage a 15 AC. Ring of Protection +2, small size bonus +1, bracers of armour +2.
A casual look at monsters around my CR (9) seems to indicate that anything I meet will be able to easy hit me unless I can reach an AC of at least 20-25. This seems unfeasible.
Should I dump AC? Currently RoP and BoA cost 8000 for me. Should I spend that on something else instead or should I use the 15 AC I get as a "mook shield"? Not sure if they're worth keeping.
In general, don't worry about AC. Use spells like Mirror Image, Invisibiility and the like to survive.
That said, having some AC doesn't hurt. Bracers are overpriced, however. Just cast Mage Armor every day. Get a 1st level pearl to recast it if you're worried about dispel/duration.
Get a Mithral Buckler +1. That's +2 AC for just about 2000 gp.
If you get craft wondrous, consider an amulet of natural armor +1 and a Belt of Dex and Con +2. That's 6k gp for +2 AC, +1 Init, +1 Fort/Ref, +9 HP.
Now you're at AC 19 with a bunch of extra bonuses and you've still only spend 8k. AC 19 is nothing to write home about, but it will save you from some random mook attack or at least increase your chance to avoid iterative attacks.
All this is assuming you already got a headband of charisma +4 or +6 and a cloak of resistance +2 (or obove), of course.
Just bumping this for the sake of completionism.
Have played quite a bit of book 4 of Kingmaker now with this character and it's generally worked quite well. Some observations:
1: DM is schizophrenic on ruling illusions (silent image, major image etc). They are quite unreliable therefore.
2: Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration are both great. The flexibility of them both is amazing.
3: Never had a chance to use colour spray. The range is too limiting.
4: Teleportation spells are handy. Just make sure to have a copy on scrolls as backup.