So a friend of mine is starting up a pathfinder game next month and everyone is still in the character creation phase. So far we have a barbarian, illusionist wizard and a rouge confirmed, maybe a druid and nobody knows what our last person is doing.
GM's specs:
Anything but 3rd Party
25 Point Buy
Max level 1 gold
Starting level 1
2 traits (can't have multiple from each trait list)
Solid plans to go to level 20.
I juggled between being an Inquisitor for a while and a sword and shield fighter. Now I'm looking at a Samurai archtyped into Sword Saint from the Order of the Dragon. The later is mainly for roleplay reasons, but the order isn't half bad in any case.
My problems start with, I've never been in a campaign that lasted past level five outside of 4th edition DnD. I'm incredibly new to pathfinder and my knowledge of 4th edition was shaky at best.
I'm not looking for optimization, I'll figure it out eventually. But I'd like to know how to get myself up off the ground with this character. Looking around I've seen the term Switch Hitter used a few times and it interests me a bit in terms of play style. I was thinking of using a bow, and maybe a two handed weapon then going in for my Iaijutsu Strike with my Kanata for the big stuff. I just don't know what sort of feats I would need for that, or if I would even have enough gold to gear myself for it.
Any help would be appreciated, even if its just pointing me in the right direction to find the information on my own since google isn't being very kind to me.
I'd say from level 1, you should narrow your focus, find your shtick and go with it. Once you reach levels where you can have some gold to burn and such, you can focus more on the switch-hitter aspects, but at first level you really don't want to be trying to do a little bit of everything.
I had a hobgoblin sword saint come into a campaign at around 6th level. I had a Returning earthbreaker that I'd use with things like cleave and lunge to increase my attacks in a round or my threatened squares, and smash up mooks then when the big boss got close, drop the hammer and Iajutsu strike him, then go to town with my Katana, or alternatively throw the hammer as an improvised weapon, then when he came at me in my unarmed state, Iajutsu on my next turn. Generally my Katana was the back-up weapon and people only saw it when they were about to be dead. I multiclassed into ninja for some story reasons, so it fit with the concept.
Choose your role and go from there then have hobbies on the side, for example my wizard is a conjurationist as his main focus, but he dabbles in evocation. Your sword saint can be the same way, focus on murdering things in the face with a Katana, but pick up a bow and some arrows and precise shot and rapid shot later on, and you can have some versatility, but for now, just focus on being good at one, then dabbling in the other later. Of course, even if you don't have any ranged feats or such, at least carry a sling so you aren't laughed at by your first flying foe. As a Samurai, you'll have a respectable Strength score, so the sling will be useful before you can get a compound bow and such.
I know people are kinda down on Crane Style now that it doesn't auto-deflect, but the fact that you can now make a counterattack without having to be 'hit' is kinda nice. I guess to me, nothing screams 'sword saint' like a guy fluidly changing his grip while making nasty counterattacks. Even if you aren't in a position to use the riposte though, getting +4AC for -1AB while wielding a bow or polearm or whatever isn't half bad. With Dodge at level 3 and a level of Master of Many Styles at 5 to take Crane Style and Crane Riposte, you can bump up your AC by 5 early on. Then at 7 you can take Crane Wing and start getting extra Katana attacks per round once you draw your weapon, while getting even more defense to compensate for the Iaijutsu penalty. I imagine it would have to be satisfying to watch some big ol' goon survive your Iaijutsu strike only to go down to your riposte on his turn like a chump.
So a friend of mine is starting up a pathfinder game next month and everyone is still in the character creation phase. So far we have a barbarian, illusionist wizard and a rouge confirmed, maybe a druid and nobody knows what our last person is doing.
GM's specs:
Anything but 3rd Party
25 Point Buy
Max level 1 gold
Starting level 1
2 traits (can't have multiple from each trait list)
Solid plans to go to level 20.
I juggled between being an Inquisitor for a while and a sword and shield fighter. Now I'm looking at a Samurai archtyped into Sword Saint from the Order of the Dragon. The later is mainly for roleplay reasons, but the order isn't half bad in any case.
My problems start with, I've never been in a campaign that lasted past level five outside of 4th edition DnD. I'm incredibly new to pathfinder and my knowledge of 4th edition was shaky at best.
I'm not looking for optimization, I'll figure it out eventually. But I'd like to know how to get myself up off the ground with this character. Looking around I've seen the term Switch Hitter used a few times and it interests me a bit in terms of play style. I was thinking of using a bow, and maybe a two handed weapon then going in for my Iaijutsu Strike with my Kanata for the big stuff. I just don't know what sort of feats I would need for that, or if I would even have enough gold to gear myself for it.
Any help would be appreciated, even if its just pointing me in the right direction to find the information on my own since google isn't being very kind to me.
For plain all areas ass kicking and cannot go wrong:
Your iajitsu strike at early levels won't be all the useful, since it requires you to start you turn adjacent to an enemy with your weapon of choice sheathed, AND it requires you to challenge them, which you have a very small amount of at early levels.
My suggestion: Power attack is a must. You're a melee character who is strength based. I do like Sword Saints to use a weapon two-handed, but I strongly suggest you invest your gold in the later levels in your AC (but don't waste feats on dodge or the likes).
Sample build:
Human Sword Saint
Str 17(+2 racial, put level bonuses here)
Con 14
Dex 14
Wis 10
Int 10
Cha 12
This is a bit flexible depending on if you want to invest more in the latter 3 stats, but with a rogue and a wizard I don't think you need too much skill investment, except in perhaps intimidate.
Weapon: Katana (just two hand it, you really want the 18-20 crit range, plus you can always draw a shield if you need the AC)
Feats: This is going to be very flexible, and all depends on your style of play. I have an order of the dragon sword saint in my Jade Regent campaign, and he's stylized himself as a protector of the party (he thought he's be doing damage, but with a gunslinger, bard archer, and a magus he's doing the least damage)
1: Power Attack
1:
3:
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Bodyguard (synergises well with your order abilities, and helps keep allies alive)
7:
9: Improved Critical
11:
Beyond these "core" feats it really is up to you. Two-handed melee fighters are very flexible in their feat choices, though I would strongly suggest making sure your saves (especially will) are strong. I'd also say that while yes samurai do get access to the latter feats of the weapon focus chain, they are mediocre and boring, and are really fighter only feats because they have the feats to spare to make their combat ability very slightly more effective.
You can be an archer if you want, but remember that for the samurai's challenge ability, it only affects melee damage
If you can be uncommon, be a Trox! They are pretty great
Trox!:
Trox!
Trox Samurai (Sword Saint) 1
CN Large monstrous humanoid
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 13, touch 10, flat-footed 12 (+3 armor, +1 Dex, -1 size)
hp 13 (1d10+3)
Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
Defensive Abilities resolve
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., burrow 20 ft.
Melee (H) katana +4 (3d6+9/18-20)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks frenzy, iajutsu strike, challenge
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 11
Base Atk +1; CMB +8 (+10 grapple); CMD 19 (21 vs. grapple)
Feats Improved Grapple, Power Attack
Traits omen, seeker
Skills Climb +9, Intimidate +5, Perception +6; Racial Modifiers lion's skills
Languages Terran
SQ grabbing appendages, orders (order of the lion)
Other Gear studded leather, katana, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Burrowing (20 feet) You have a Burrow speed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Frenzy (1/day) (Ex) When injured, fly into a rage, gaining +2 CON, +2 STR, and -2 AC for 1 min.
Grabbing Appendages (Ex) Secondary arms maintain a grapple and can still make attacks with main arms.
Iajutsu Strike +1d6/-4 AC (Full-round) (Ex) Draw sword as strike challenged foe for extra dam, but take AC penalty for 1 rd. You can use this once per foe, each day.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Lion's Challenge +1 (1/day) (Ex) +1 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, +1 Dodge AC vs. the target of your challenge.
Lion's Skills +1 (Ex) +1 to Knowledge (Nobility) checks relating to sovreign.
Omen (1/day) As a swift action, Demoralize an opponent.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Resolve (1/day) (Ex) Your resolve can remove effects or reroll saves.
Here he is at level 1. His ac sucks because large size armor is expensive, but wow is his damage nasty.
Trox at 5!:
Trox!
Trox Samurai (Sword Saint) 5
CN Large monstrous humanoid
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 10, flat-footed 18 (+9 armor, +1 Dex, -1 size)
hp 49 (5d10+15)
Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +4
Defensive Abilities resolve
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft., burrow 20 ft.
Melee (H) +1 katana +7 (3d6+16/18-20)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks brutal slash, frenzy, iajutsu strike, challenge, terrifying iajutsu
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +5; CMB +10 (+12 grapple); CMD 23 (25 vs. grapple)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Iron Will, Power Attack
Traits omen, seeker
Skills Climb +4, Diplomacy +5, Intimidate +10, Perception +10, Sense Motive +6, Swim +4; Racial Modifiers lion's skills
Languages Terran
SQ grabbing appendages, lion's call, mounted archer, orders (order of the lion), weapon expertise
Other Gear full plate, +1 katana, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Brutal Slash +2 (Ex) Gain a bonus to confirm Iajutsu Strike criticals.
Burrowing (20 feet) You have a Burrow speed.
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Frenzy (1/day) (Ex) When injured, fly into a rage, gaining +2 CON, +2 STR, and -2 AC for 1 min.
Grabbing Appendages (Ex) Secondary arms maintain a grapple and can still make attacks with main arms.
Iajutsu Strike +3d6/-4 AC (Full-round) (Ex) Draw sword as strike challenged foe for extra dam, but take AC penalty for 1 rd. You can use this once per foe, each day.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Lion's Call +1/+1 (Ex) Grant allies +1 save vs. Fear, +1 to attack, new save vs. fear.
Lion's Challenge +5 (2/day) (Ex) +5 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, +2 Dodge AC vs. the target of your challenge.
Lion's Skills +2 (Ex) +2 to Knowledge (Nobility) checks relating to sovreign.
Mounted Archer (Ex) At 4th level, the samurai becomes skilled at firing ranged weapons while mounted. A samurai only takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls with ranged weapons while his mount takes a double move. This penalty increases to –4 while his mount is running.
Omen (1/day) As a swift action, Demoralize an opponent.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Resolve (3/day) (Ex) Your resolve can remove effects or reroll saves.
Terrifying Iajutsu (DC 13) (Ex) When hit foe with Iajutsu Strike, all foes in 30 ft shaken 1d4+1 rds (Will neg).
Weapon Expertise (Katana) (Ex) You can quick draw the chosen weapon, and gain +2 to confirm critical hits.
At 5, turn power attack on for a reasonable chance to hit and obliterate most things! If you iajutsu strike something, that is 6d6 +21 damage! Pretty hilarious.
Trox!:
Trox!
Trox Samurai (Sword Saint) 10
CN Large monstrous humanoid
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 11, flat-footed 22 (+11 armor, +1 Dex, -1 size, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 104 (10d10+40)
Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +9
Defensive Abilities resolve
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft., burrow 20 ft.
Melee (H) +2 keen katana +14/+9 (3d6+21/15-20)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks brutal slash, for the king, frenzy, iajutsu strike, challenge, terrifying iajutsu
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 25, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +10; CMB +15 (+17 grapple); CMD 31 (33 vs. grapple)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Cornugon Smash, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (katana)
Traits omen, seeker
Skills Climb +6, Diplomacy +9, Intimidate +16, Perception +15, Sense Motive +8, Swim +6; Racial Modifiers lion's skills
Languages Terran
SQ grabbing appendages, lion's call, mounted archer, orders (order of the lion), weapon expertise
Other Gear +2 full plate, +2 keen katana, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +3, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +1, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Brutal Slash +5 (Ex) Gain a bonus to confirm Iajutsu Strike criticals.
Burrowing (20 feet) You have a Burrow speed.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
For the King +2 (1/combat) (Ex) Grant allies +2 to hit and damage for 1 round.
Frenzy (1/day) (Ex) When injured, fly into a rage, gaining +2 CON, +2 STR, and -2 AC for 1 min.
Grabbing Appendages (Ex) Secondary arms maintain a grapple and can still make attacks with main arms.
Greater Resolve (5/day) (Ex) Your resolve can remove effects, reroll saves, or ignore crits.
Iajutsu Strike +5d6/-2 AC (Standard) (Ex) Draw sword as strike challenged foe for extra dam, but take AC penalty for 1 rd. You can use this once per foe, each day.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Lion's Call +2/+1 (Ex) Grant allies +2 save vs. Fear, +1 to attack, new save vs. fear.
Lion's Challenge +10 (4/day) (Ex) +10 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, +3 Dodge AC vs. the target of your challenge.
Lion's Skills +5 (Ex) +5 to Knowledge (Nobility) checks relating to sovreign.
Mounted Archer (Ex) At 4th level, the samurai becomes skilled at firing ranged weapons while mounted. A samurai only takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls with ranged weapons while his mount takes a double move. This penalty increases to –4 while his mount is running.
Omen (1/day) As a swift action, Demoralize an opponent.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Terrifying Iajutsu (DC 17) (Ex) When hit foe with Iajutsu Strike, all foes in 30 ft shaken 1d4+1 rds (Will neg).
Weapon Expertise (Katana) (Ex) You can quick draw the chosen weapon, and gain +2 to confirm critical hits.
Level 10 is basically more of the same, just mash people with your huge katana
I'd say from level 1, you should narrow your focus, find your shtick and go with it. Once you reach levels where you can have some gold to burn and such, you can focus more on the switch-hitter aspects, but at first level you really don't want to be trying to do a little bit of everything.
I disagree with this - at least insofar as Proley makes it sound like trying to be a versatile warrior right out the gate is a 100% doubleplus-ungood never-ever option. True, you'll be of very limited means to start with, but if (for example), you were a Human who started with Power Attack and Point-Blank Shot, and had good armor, melee, and ranged weapons to go with it, a high enough Intelligence to make the most of the Samurai's skill set, you'd do fine.
The only problem I see is that the Sword Saint Archetype sucks. This is a shame, because there absolutely ought to be unmounted alternatives for Samurai, and cuisinart iaijutsu masters should be among them. The Iaijutsu Strike as written is piss-poor if you're not basically in a setting like Rokugan where an adventuring Samurai could do well by sacrificing power in most combats for the ability to be a terror in strict formal dueling, and certainly can't compare to all that a Mount would offer you. Rather than tell you to look elsewhere, however, I'd honestly suggest begging your DM to work with you on reconfiguring the Sword Saint into something competitive. What I might do (having given it only a few moments' thought) is apply the 10th-level "upgrade" (perform the Strike as a standard action, suffer only a -2 AC penalty) as the from-the-beginning baseline (maybe remove the AC penalty when the Sword Saint reaches 10th level), and remove the "only usable against foes you've Challenged" requirement. You might also want to dig up 3.0's Oriental Adventures for the Iaijutsu Master prestige class to see if you can find anything there you like - also, even though your DM doesn't want 3rd-Party stuff, at least consider looking at 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming's Paths of Power for their Samurai class, which I actually think came out quite a bit better than Ultimate Combat's Samurai - it includes an option to become an Iaijutsu master, and in the case of a book that came up with an suspiciously similar Anti-Paladin and an if-anything-better line of Elemental Wizards BEFORE Paizo published the Advanced Player's Guide, maybe it could be considered not-so-3rd-party...?
Good luck, at any rate - may your Samurai live for 10,000 years!
Its a large party - switch hitting is VERY over rated in large parties.
Either your nicking others thunder or as a group have every situation under standard controls so fobbing about with alternative lesser weapons is a utter waste.
Samurai make VERY poor switch hitters as well. If you use a wakazashi and have a quick draw throwing shield and deadly aim you can do okay but better of buffing/blocking/grappling etc
Sword saint makes switch hitting even worse for a samurai as they get amazing good damage on standard actions round 10th and before then should be using actions to setup full attacks in melee (specialization and challenge is melee only).
3rd party lacks consistency - better is never better for a long gambling history.
Switch hitting and samurai never mind sword saint don't really sync at all.
Considering that Samurai get Quickdraw for free and that the Sword Saint gets to do his archetypal thing specifically when he draws a weapon, I'd say there's a definite mechanical synergy with switching-up and Iaijutsu. That being said, any secondary weapon on a Samurai is going to be strictly a sideshow act; I could see it on a Samurai who charges with a polearm and/or gets in a bonus reach-attack or two before getting down to business.
Whether using your full-attack action to grab an xd6 bonus on a single attack until level 10 is worth it and worthy of a whole archetype is a different question entirely... like the question of whether Iaijutsu is really what should define a 'Sword Saint,' or whether being able to make a cut while drawing is worth some kind of legendary damage bonus instead of just being a handy trick...
I've got good mileage out of the mount. A high AC co-combatant, who can track(horses have scent), has several primary natural attacks and allows you to do the occasional mounted charge, carries gear & loot, is a decent source of roleplaying etc. Mounts are pure win for me. I'm actually considering a mounted archer on a camel, just need an archetype to use challenge with a bow
I'll post my character here, might not be too helpful, but pooling ideas never goes to waste.
Spoiler:
Onispawn(+2 Str, Wis -2 Cha) Samurai 9
n native outsider
Init +2, darkvision, etc
Str 21(+2 belt, +2 level) Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 10
Feats(b: bonus) Intimidating Prowess, Dazzling Display(b), Power Attack, Wpn Focus (katana), Shatter Defenses, Cornugon Smash(b), Iron Will
Melee +15/+10 (1d8+19, 18-20)
challenge +15/10 (d+28, +3 if the only one to threaten)
SQ order of the cockatrice, soul seer, resist acid fire shock 10*, banner
Gear +3 katana, + 3 fullplate, darksire amulet*, RoP +1, belt of str +2, cloak of resistance +2, mwk shield, some oils, a healing wand
Eventually I'll enchant the sword to be a cruel weapon, so that shaken opponents become sickened as well.
Anyhow, that crazily focused feat list has a purpose. You see, Cornugon Smash lets you demoralize as a free action if you hit with Power Attack. Shatter Defenses, which requires Dazzling Display, allows you to treat every shaken opponent's AC as flatfooted until the end of next round. You need to hit regular AC first though.
So, what I've done is charge an opponent (+3 to hit w/banner) and demoralize them. Next round do a full attack, after the first hit, all your attacks target flatfooted AC. And you can demoralize constantly since it is a free action. Pretty effective.
That said, I don't need to do this routine against every opponent, but it is rather empowering to charge, for instance, an osyluth, make them quiver and drop their AC by 5 points to boot.
I'll probably multiclass to Fighter for the next two levels, pick Weapon Specialization, Grt. Wpn Focus and Deadly Stroke. Deadly Stroke doesn't really combine with anything, but Constitution bleed sounds dandy. You could make the feat combo something disgusting by multiclassing to Thug(Rogue archetype), but it's not tactically too sound to send everyone running. :D
