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Never actually played one...
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Human Zen Archer & Quinggong Monk
Favored Class Bonus, Focused Study, Vow of Truth
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 15 (+1 @ 20th)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th & 16th)
CHA - 7
Traits:
Honored Fist of the Society
Reactionary
Feats:
1st H Skill Focus: Sense Motive
1st L Point Blank Shot
1st M Rapid Shot
1st M Perfect Strike
2nd M Precise Shot
2nd M Weapon Focus: Bow
3rd L Snake Style
3rd M Point Blank Master
5th L Deadly Aim
6th M Improved Precise Shot
6th M Weapon Specialization: Bow
7th L Alertness
8th H Skill Focus: Perception
9th L Clustered Shots
10th M Combat Reflexes
11th L Snap Shot
13th L Improved Snap Shot
14th M Improved Critical
15th L Critical Focus
16th H Skill Focus: Stealth or Acrobatics
17th L Hammer the Gap
18th M Shot on the Run
19th L Staggering Critical
Snake Style because I figure most creatures can't make more than 1 ranged attack per round and I like the ability to boost my touch AC. Alertness because its a nice synergy for my Wisdom-based skills.
I'm going to play the guy as someone who sees things very, very clearly, whether its his surroundings or the motivations of others... and has an unfortunate tendency to speak the truth of things openly and often inappropriately. He has little use for social niceties as they are often inherently deceitful - hence the low Charisma.
I have a character with some similar flavor for how you want yours to be, very perceptive and knowing.
Clustered shots help with DR so your golden on that major issue.
As for Alertness at 7th, I'd drop it. Get the blue rhomboid ioun stone, does the exact same thing. Use that feat for perhaps, another feat of your liking. I personally like a master Craftsman, bec it now makes my bow maing craft check capable of maing magic arrows/bows. Or master alchemist to help lessen the cost of your alchemical arrows, there are quite a few.
Snake style seems good, but not on a zen archer. You use up your swift action, merely to negate a singl attack, when yu have better uses for the swift action.
Zen acher swift action can be used for : +20 speed, +20 jump, +4 AC, ki arrow damage, extra attack (my personal favorite), or making the arrows ignore concealment/ cover. That is a hell of a lot better than possibly negating an attack to you, especially with your high saves and high-ish AC.
Feats 10-12 I'd drop. If you expect to get into close combat a lot, which any archer shouldn't, then I would keep the comapbat reflexes, if your dex is good enough. Otherwise drop it. Zen archer monks already get a pseudo snapshot ability out to their unarmed strike range; which is 5'. No need to overlap that ability using 2 more feats simply for the offhand your enemies do get closer. If they do, your built in ability is more than enough, coupled with point blank master and you have nothing to fear. I'd replace them with other feats such as master craftsman, toughness, dimensional agility, etc.
Toughness should be in your feats, because even though you won't be hurting on AC, saves, or even HP with a D8 HD, more HP is better than less. Also, you have no magical defenses, or buffs past Barkskin from qinggong or items. You also have no DR like your barbarian ally does, so slowing down your rate of death is always best. Best way to do this is higher AC, high HP, some sort of displacement and/or cover, and distance. An archers best weapon is his distance.
As for stats, you could afford to lower your int, not too many skills are needed for amino, especially when they have so many points to float. Acrobatics, perception, sense motive, stealth are your key 4 max rank skills. All others can have some points here or there as you please.
As for being human, I did the same thing for reasons you yourself chose. The 3 skill focus feats instead of 1 any feat for a human, is very helpful especially for this kind of build/concept. However, dwarves get the con and wis bump, and drop charisma which monks don't care about. That with the steel soul feat will increase the dwarves saves vs. magical abilities, etc, makes it a nice choice. Darkvision for icing on the cake.
Hope this helps you out a bit. If you need more assistance, let us know.
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While Sense Motive is often useful, I would recommend Deflect Arrows for a feat at first level. You will likely often be the target of ranged attacks.
I think the trait Renegadeshepard is looking for is Wisdom in the Flesh. It makes one STR, DEX or CON skill wisdom-based, and makes it a class skill. My monk character has this trait for Disable Device, since there is seldom a rogue around.
What do you guys think of adding in Evangelist? You only lose 1 level, but you get some cool bonuses for free.
What do you guys think of adding in Evangelist? You only lose 1 level, but you get some cool bonuses for free.
I have highly highly considered playing another zen archer or erastil just to take evangelist. It synergies so well and adds so much its crazy! I just almost feel bad cause Zen Archer is already so broken, this combo brings it up to insane levels, especially at the capstone Deific obedience ability. I have to imagine at that point your within 30 feet damage is probably the highest in the game.
Why get rapid shot? It doesn't work with Flurry of Arrows and FoA is a much better option anyway - use that free feat for something useful.
I took Rapid Shot as a pre-requisite to Snap Shot / Improved Snap Shot. That's also why Dex is 15.
I have a character with some similar flavor for how you want yours to be, very perceptive and knowing.
Clustered shots help with DR so your golden on that major issue.
As for Alertness at 7th, I'd drop it. Get the blue rhomboid ioun stone, does the exact same thing. Use that feat for perhaps, another feat of your liking. I personally like a master Craftsman, bec it now makes my bow maing craft check capable of maing magic arrows/bows. Or master alchemist to help lessen the cost of your alchemical arrows, there are quite a few.
Snake style seems good, but not on a zen archer. You use up your swift action, merely to negate a singl attack, when yu have better uses for the swift action.
Zen acher swift action can be used for : +20 speed, +20 jump, +4 AC, ki arrow damage, extra attack (my personal favorite), or making the arrows ignore concealment/ cover. That is a hell of a lot better than possibly negating an attack to you, especially with your high saves and high-ish AC.
Feats 10-12 I'd drop. If you expect to get into close combat a lot, which any archer shouldn't, then I would keep the comapbat reflexes, if your dex is good enough. Otherwise drop it. Zen archer monks already get a pseudo snapshot ability out to their unarmed strike range; which is 5'. No need to overlap that ability using 2 more feats simply for the offhand your enemies do get closer. If they do, your built in ability is more than enough, coupled with point blank master and you have nothing to fear. I'd replace them with other feats such as master craftsman, toughness, dimensional agility, etc.
Toughness should be in your feats, because even though you won't be hurting on AC, saves, or even HP with a D8 HD, more HP is better than less. Also, you have no magical defenses, or buffs past Barkskin from qinggong or items. You also have no DR like your barbarian ally does, so slowing down your rate of death is always best. Best way to do this is higher AC, high HP, some sort of displacement and/or cover, and distance. An...
I appreciate your taking the time to answer, and at such length.
I'll reconsider the pursuit of the Snake Style feat and the others that go with it - I suppose if nothing else I could get some extra Ki out of those feats.
I chose Human because that was the concept I had in mind rp-wise. Its a comfortable default and its a solid choice mechanically due to the FCB, bonus feat, etc. A Dwarf might be a touch better mechanically overall, but it definitely doesn't fit what I had in mind.
As far as Snapshot, its really Improved Snapshot I was after - perhaps I'm misunderstanding its function, but it seems to me that adjacent foes will almost never provoke AoO's, much less multiple ones, but with a threat range of 15', a typical foe might well provoke twice just getting within melee range of me, or moving through that area to get to someone else for that matter. That sounds like it adds up to a lot of extra attacks.
Now obviously I'd rather be at range and take advantage of the distance between me and my foes... but all to often we end up doing battle indoors or underground where such mobility isn't as easily taken advantage of. I would rather be especially lethal up close than considerably weakened.
Am I wrong in how I think Improved Snapshot works?
While Sense Motive is often useful, I would recommend Deflect Arrows for a feat at first level. You will likely often be the target of ranged attacks.
I think the trait Renegadeshepard is looking for is Wisdom in the Flesh. It makes one STR, DEX or CON skill wisdom-based, and makes it a class skill. My monk character has this trait for Disable Device, since there is seldom a rogue around.
Sense Motive was chosen when it was to take fullest advantage of Snake Style, which I might be reconsidering.
That Trait looks like a good one, but I'm not sure I'd trade either of the ones I selected fot it.
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If your set on the Snap Shot chain you should probably delay Rapid Shot. Why use a bonus feat slot that comes without pre requisites to gain a feat that you need the pre requisites for?
If you're playing from level 1 you should take Precise Shot as your 1st level bonus feat. Negating the -4 for firing into melee is much better return than a circumstantial +1 to hit & damage (which is still -3 to hit in many situations). At 1st level you're squishy and don't want to be in charge range of a Goblin Warrior kept alone a fire with class levels.
As a zen archer you have feats to spare, but wasting 2 feats (Rapid Shot & a Snap Shot) just to gain Improved Snap Shot seems a bit of a waste.
I'm playing a a Sense Motive Zen Archer right now (level 8) right now and I find the ability has been fantastic out of combat (I'm the walking lie detector) and the times I've needed to use snake style have saved my life. But it has been less often than I thought I'd use it.
If your set on the Snap Shot chain you should probably delay Rapid Shot. Why use a bonus feat slot that comes without pre requisites to gain a feat that you need the pre requisites for?
If you're playing from level 1 you should take Precise Shot as your 1st level bonus feat. Negating the -4 for firing into melee is much better return than a circumstantial +1 to hit & damage (which is still -3 to hit in many situations). At 1st level you're squishy and don't want to be in charge range of a Goblin Warrior kept alone a fire with class levels.
As a zen archer you have feats to spare, but wasting 2 feats (Rapid Shot & a Snap Shot) just to gain Improved Snap Shot seems a bit of a waste.
I'm playing a a Sense Motive Zen Archer right now (level 8) right now and I find the ability has been fantastic out of combat (I'm the walking lie detector) and the times I've needed to use snake style have saved my life. But it has been less often than I thought I'd use it.
Right now I've really got only two feats invested in Snake Style - I can get back that Human feat or use the Skill Focus for something else if I want - would you say, in retrospect, that you'd get more benefit out of something like Toughness and Improved Initiative than you did from Snake Style? It really does seem like something that could save my life at least once an adventuring day...
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would you say, in retrospect, that you'd get more benefit out of something like Toughness and Improved Initiative than you did from Snake Style?
I don't think so. The in & out of combat usefulness I've gotten out of having a passive Sense Motive score of 24 and a passive Perception score of 20 (at 1st level*)has nullified/granted several surprise rounds, which is easily worth a few hp's.
At 7th I was going to take Improved Initiative but GM allowed Big Game Hunter so I took that instead.
That said, I've only played to 8th level and it's 11th level where our builds really start to diverge (same feats, different order until then except for Rapid Shot). And who knows, maybe by then I will wish I was prepped for the Improved Snap Shot chain...
*GM uses a rule where he sets the passive DC of our Perception & Sense Motive checks at Skill Mod +10.
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As far as Snapshot, its really Improved Snapshot I was after - perhaps I'm misunderstanding its function, but it seems to me that adjacent foes will almost never provoke AoO's, much less multiple ones, but with a threat range of 15', a typical foe might well provoke twice just getting within melee range of me, or moving through that area to get to someone else for that matter. That sounds like it adds up to a lot of extra attacks.
A single foe only ever provokes 1 AoO from movement through your threatened spaces in a round, no matter how many moves he makes. He could run in circles, dance a jig or do cartwheels in and out of your threatened spaces, but it will only ever allow you to make one AoO.
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
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Zen Archers can't take any vows, Point Blank Master replaces Still Mind, which you need to "trade in" for vows.
Can Ninja's take Vows?
This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool.
It would seem so, even though they lack the Still Mind class feature, just like the Zen Archer.
Being that the OP has posted his build up to 19th level I don't think it's for organized play - in which case he certainly can take vows; if his GM is cool with it.
I wouldn't try it in organized play though. Table variation and all.
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Zen Archers can't take any vows, Point Blank Master replaces Still Mind, which you need to "trade in" for vows.Can Ninja's take Vows?
This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool.It would seem so, even though they lack the Still Mind class feature, just like the Zen Archer.
Being that the OP has posted his build up to 19th level I don't think it's for organized play - in which case he certainly can take vows; if his GM is cool with it.
I wouldn't try it in organized play though. Table variation and all.
No, a ninja cannot use vows.
The section clearly states that they replace the Still Mind class feature, and Ninja do not have that feature to be replaced.
There is no table variation to consider, only ignoring the rules.
And your example mentions the Zen Archer, that archetype gives up the Still Mind class feature and also cannot take Vows because of it.
Alright, considering the rules clarification regarding Improved Snap Shot, I'm going to ditch that feat chain, but for now I'm keeping Snake Style and the Skill Focus feats. I'm also making slight adjustments to Strength and Dexterity.
Consider this:
Human Zen Archer & Quinggong Monk
Favored Class Bonus, Focused Study
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 12
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
CHA - 7
Traits:
Honored Fist of the Society
Reactionary
Feats:
1st H Skill Focus: Sense Motive
1st L Toughness
1st M Precise Shot
1st M Perfect Strike
2nd M Deflect Arrows
2nd M Weapon Focus: Bow
3rd L Snake Style
3rd M Point Blank Master
5th L Deadly Aim
6th M Point Blank Shot
6th M Weapon Specialization: Bow
7th L Improved Initiative
8th H Skill Focus: Perception
9th L Clustered Shots
9th M Reflexive Shot (Snapshot)
10th M Improved Precise Shot
11th L Alertness
13th L Hammer the Gap
14th M Improved Critical
15th L Critical Focus
16th H Skill Focus: Stealth or Acrobatics
17th L Extra Ki or Iron Will
18th M Shot on the Run
19th L Staggering Critical
Once I get this hammered down, I'll figure out the exact order of his Quinggong/Ki abilities...
As far as Quinggong abilities, this is what I'm thinking...
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Ki/Quinggong abilities:
4th - Slow Fall (swap for Barkskin)
5th - High Jump (swap for Feather Step)
7th - Wholeness of Body (keep)
11th - Trick Shot (archetype swap)
12th - Abundant Step (keep)
13th - Diamond Soul (keep)
15th - Quivering Palm (swap for Augury)
17th - Timeless Body (swap for Diamond Body)
17th - Ki Focus Bow (archetype swap)
19th - Empty Body (swap for Tongue of the Sun and Moon)
20th - Perfect Self (keep)
Thoughts are Barkskin and Diamond Soul for defense, Wholeness of Body and Diamond Body for self-preservation, Feather Step and Abundant Step for mobility and the other options either required or kept for general utility.
The one I'm least sure about is dropping Quivering Palm for Augury, but it occurs to me that QP can only be used once per day and since it targets Fortitude saves its far from a sure thing. Augury on the other hand, simple a spell as it is, could provide some valuable insight for the character at any level as needed.
I'm also wondering if I would be better off taking Extra Ki in place of feats like Improved Initiative, Critical Focus and Staggering Critical. All seem like good takes for a mobile archer build who expects to put out a lot of attacks every round, but the Extra Ki would make me more versatile overall... alternately, I could drop Snake Style, Alertness and the Skill Focus feats to take Extra Ki up to four times and keep the above feats. Never having had to juggle a Ki pool before, I'm not sure which options would be better.
Thoughts?
I am playing a ZenArcher now and I found that at the low levels its ok to not have that much dex. I would swap your DEX and STR, it will make a huge difference at level 3 when you no longer need DEX and can get a composite bow.
EDIT: Did you read the ZenArcher guide? the one with "One"? It shows how awesome Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm can be.
I am playing a ZenArcher now and I found that at the low levels its ok to not have that much dex. I would swap your DEX and STR, it will make a huge difference at level 3 when you no longer need DEX and can get a composite bow.
EDIT: Did you read the ZenArcher guide? the one with "One"? It shows how awesome Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm can be.
A huge difference being +1 damage instead of +1 AC, Reflex saves and Initiative?
I haven't read that guide, though I did briefly browse the Beastmass thread.
Hopefully you won't be in melee so AC had a lower value. You have great reflex save anyway. The +1 init is the big loss. But when you start putting 8 arrows in the air the +1 damage really does make a difference. Same reason why weapon specialization is such a great damage feat and it only gives +2.
StreamoftheSky's Zen Archer thread is pretty well reasoned, imo.
If you want a Style feat, I'd suggest Monkey Style. Not for the melee attacks while prone; for the Wis-to-Acrobatics + swift action stand up from prone. Dropping prone is a free action. So if someone is shooting back at you, you end your action by dropping prone, getting a +4 AC from their ranged attacks, and start your next turn by popping back up. Find a short wall to take cover behind and they won't be able to shoot at you at all without readying actions.
Do seriously consider the Wisdom of the Flesh trait; it's just too big a bonus not to, and you're the class that makes the most sense to be worshipping Irori in the first place.
If you have Inner Sea Gods though, I'd instead worship Erastil, take the Deadeye Bowman trait, and get into Evangelist just as fast you can. Erastil's final Evangelist boon is +Wis to attack and damage within 30'. You won't get it until 14th level (12 if you're willing to play an Aasimar in a non-PFS game), but super PBS is worth building around.
Someone wanted a build that could do ranged disarms a while back; I liked what I put together well enough that I built it for one of my PFS characters:
Dual-Minded Half-Elf
Archer 3 / Quingong Zen Archer 9
S 14 D 14 C 12 I 10 W 18 C 8
Heirloom Weapon (CLB, Disarm), Wisdom in the Flesh (Stealth)
F 1 / Monk 4 / F+2 / Monk +5
F1 Deadly Aim, Elven Accuracy
M1 Precise Shot, Flurry, Perfect Strike, IUS
M2 Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus
M3 +10', Maneuver Training, Point Blank Master
M4 Monkey Style, Ki Pool, True Strike, +1 AC
F2 Toughness, Hawkeye
F3 Clustered Shots, Trick Shot (Disarm)
M5 Barkskin, Ki arrows
M6 Hammer the Gap, Improved Precise Shot, +20', Weapon Spec
M7 Feather Step
M8 FEAT +2 AC
M9 Reflexive Shot, +30'