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It is hard to do at 20th level because the fighter is getting 19-20x4 auto-confirm crits with the longbow.PS: I am also guessing. I have not run any numbers. :)
I've not run any numbers recently.
I remember Sohei pulled ahead of zen archer at some point, but I don't remember when or by how much.
I don't think either monk build beats a straight fighter at level 20.
It's not that big of a difference, as any archer at 20 is going to be wearing bracers of the falcon for 19-20/x3 crits anyway. Auto-confirm is nice, but there are feats that give huge bonuses to that.
Maybe 15 levels of monk and 5 if fighter would lead to more damage from the full 3 attacks from flurry.
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Rapid Shot and Manyshot give you two more attacks per round at the cost of an extra -4 to hit.
Manyshot doesn't take an extra penalty. You just have the -2 for Rapid Shot.
Manyshot is a free extra attack if the first attack hits. The nice thing about the Zen Archer/Fighter combo is that you can use Perfect Shot with the first attack each round, increasing the chances that your Manyshot arrow hits.
Rapid Shot and Manyshot give you two more attacks per round at the cost of an extra -4 to hit.Manyshot doesn't take an extra penalty. You just have the -2 for Rapid Shot.
Manyshot is a free extra attack if the first attack hits. The nice thing about the Zen Archer/Fighter combo is that you can use Perfect Shot with the first attack each round, increasing the chances that your Manyshot arrow hits.
I don't think you can Manyshot and Flurry with a Zen Archer, but this is nice if making a single attack.
I don't think you can Manyshot and Flurry with a Zen Archer, but this is nice if making a single attack.Rapid Shot and Manyshot give you two more attacks per round at the cost of an extra -4 to hit.Manyshot doesn't take an extra penalty. You just have the -2 for Rapid Shot.
Manyshot is a free extra attack if the first attack hits. The nice thing about the Zen Archer/Fighter combo is that you can use Perfect Shot with the first attack each round, increasing the chances that your Manyshot arrow hits.
Perfect Shot isn't connected to flurry. It's the Zen Archer variant of Perfect Strike, usable with a bow. You get to roll your attack roll twice and take the better.
You can't combine flurry with either Rapid Shot or Manyshot, but if you have Rapid Shot and Manyshot as normal feats, you can use Rapid Shot and Manyshot on a full attack action instead of flurry. (Technically, you can use Manyshot on a full attack action without Rapid Shot, too.)
So if you use Manyshot on a full attack action, you can use Perfect Shot on the first attack in the round, to increase the chances that your extra arrow hits.
I did look at the Sohei and it honestly just looks like an oversight. At this point I'm debating Zen Archer or Zen Archer/Weapon Master multiclass.
I've got a crazy and revolutionary idea: rather than worrying about how much damage your character can do, think about the type of character that you want to play, and then pick the class that best fits it. Its just crazy enough that it might work.
How? I was thinking Zen Archer 15/Weapon Master 5. Still full BAB on a flurry, isn't it?
I've read through that one as well, I was just unsure of how it may have changed over two years.
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You can't combine flurry with either Rapid Shot or Manyshot,You cannot combite flurry with either rapid shot or manyshot when using the zen archer archetype.
Sohie does not have this limitation.
I would run this past your GM before making a build of it. Since flurry specifically says you can't combine it with two-weapon fighting to get an extra attack and since the Zen Archer archetype (the one that specifically defines flurry with bows) says that you can't combine flurry with Rapid Shot or Manyshot to get an extra attack, I wouldn't allow it: it seems to go against intent, to me.
That being said, with the Sohei, you still have to qualify for the feats that aren't on your bonus feat list. That means that
- You can't get Manyshot until level 8 (BAB 6)
- You can't get Improved Precise Shot until level 15 (BAB 11)
- You can't get Weapon Specialization or Point Blank Master at all (requires 4th level fighter, but the Sohei doesn't get to count his monk levels as fighter levels to qualify for feats)
I have two basic "rules" for my ranged fighters:
1) Get Point Blank Master as soon as possible.
Despite all the talk about "standing back out of combat" or "raining death on your enemies from 100 feet away", I've only seen this happen a few times, and there was usually a wall or a ship involved. If there's nothing between you and the bad guys, you have one, maybe two rounds before they close on you and you're in the middle of melee.
In a DPR calculation, you should probably eliminate the bonus from Point Blank Shot until you have Point Blank Master: if you're planning to just "stay out of melee", you need to be more than 30 feet away.
2) Get Improved Precise Shot as soon as possible.
Cover sucks. Cover is everywhere. On a strict reading, any creature between you and your target is -4 to hit (soft cover). A nice GM might give it to you as partial cover, which is only -2, but that's usually only when you're targeting a large creature.
You know you need Precise Shot from 1st level because you're always going to be shooting into melee. If you're shooting into melee, there's a 75-85% chance you're shooting past another creature.
Any advice I give on ranged characters is based on these two rules. If you don't see these as an issue, then the only advice I can give you is don't ever trade out weapon training: it's the fighter's biggest advantage in damage over any other class.
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I agree, the sohei is much slower to about coming online. It's not until the late teens that the sohei becomes competitive.
The only reason sohei is competitive vs fighter is number of attacks. The fighter will always deal more damage per arrow, though not by as wide a margin as with the zen archer.
I did look at the Sohei and it honestly just looks like an oversight. At this point I'm debating Zen Archer or Zen Archer/Weapon Master multiclass.You will loose two points of BAB multiclassing and will no longer be using Flurry of Blows.
Monk Flurry BAB and any other BAB stack so you are still at full BAB when making a Flurry. It's true that your Flurry doesn't advance anymore though and I don't see much of an oversight with Sohei. They have been ruled on before with concern to wearing light armor during Flurry and their ability to Flurry with bows and Rapid Shot wasn't ruled on.
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Monk Flurry BAB and any other BAB stack so you are still at full BAB when making a Flurry. It's true that your Flurry doesn't advance anymore though and I don't see much of an oversight with Sohei. They have been ruled on before with concern to wearing light armor during Flurry and their ability to Flurry with bows and Rapid Shot wasn't ruled on.I did look at the Sohei and it honestly just looks like an oversight. At this point I'm debating Zen Archer or Zen Archer/Weapon Master multiclass.You will loose two points of BAB multiclassing and will no longer be using Flurry of Blows.
With only 6 levels of monk, your flurry puts three arrows in the air.
18 BAB + rapid shot + many shot = 6 arrows.
You're going to drop down to three arrows per round instead of 7?Monk Flurry BAB and any other BAB stack so you are still at full BAB when making a Flurry. It's true that your Flurry doesn't advance anymore though and I don't see much of an oversight with Sohei. They have been ruled on before with concern to wearing light armor during Flurry and their ability to Flurry with bows and Rapid Shot wasn't ruled on.I did look at the Sohei and it honestly just looks like an oversight. At this point I'm debating Zen Archer or Zen Archer/Weapon Master multiclass.You will loose two points of BAB multiclassing and will no longer be using Flurry of Blows.
I don't understand what you mean by that. Rowe's example was Zen Archer 15/Weapon Master 5 which would be +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 on a Flurry I believe.
Sohei 15/Weapon Master (or even regular Fighter) 5 on the other hand with Rapid Shot while Flurrying could be +16(+Manyshot)/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1, before bonuses of course. 9 arrows? If the DM ruled that Rapidshot/Manyshot worked with Flurry, that is. This character would also have access to weapon specialization which would allow point blank master and have weapon training 3. Also, with QiGong Monk taken for the right spell-like ability you can have an arcane caster level that can give +4 damage with Arcane Strike.
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Also, with QiGong Monk taken for the right spell-like ability you can have an arcane caster level that can give +4 damage with Arcane Strike.
I currently have a Sohei/Qinggong monk with Arcane Strike.
She's not an archer....
It is a choice between spending ki for an extra attack or using Arcane Strike.
Also, with QiGong Monk taken for the right spell-like ability you can have an arcane caster level that can give +4 damage with Arcane Strike.I currently have a Sohei/Qinggong monk with Arcane Strike.
She's not an archer....
It is a choice between spending ki for an extra attack or using Arcane Strike.
Very true, but you don't run out of Arcane Strikes.
At low levels Arcane Strike could be an excellent boost. Later on with Ki Leech it may be less useful. Still definitely something to consider that I hadn't thought of.
On the Rapid Shot/Flurry issue... There is nothing preventing a normal Monk from flurrying with shurikens and using Rapid Shot on top of that. In general, you can use Rapid Shot and Two-weapon Fighting with ranged weapons in a few cases, such as an Alchemist with Fast Bombs discovery or light crossbows (if you have the right feats and number of arms). A Ninja could throw like 5 shurikens by 3rd level if he/she has Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting and takes the Flurry of Stars trick, or takes a level of Monk in place of getting Two-Weapon Fighting.
My point is that Rapid Shot is not usually incompatible with Flurry probably because Two-Weapon Fighting works with Rapid Shot. Flurry is like Two-Weapon Fighting in design but obviously changed with how that works and archtypes like Sohei and Zen Archer make changes to or replaces the Flurry feature. Zen Archer points out that Rapid Shot/Manyshot doesn't work with Flurry as an exception.
I agree, the sohei is much slower to about coming online. It's not until the late teens that the sohei becomes competitive.
The only reason sohei is competitive vs fighter is number of attacks. The fighter will always deal more damage per arrow, though not by as wide a margin as with the zen archer.
I was curious, so I did a quick and dirty draft of a Sohei 8/Fighter 5.
Im kind of impressed. Being able to put 7 or 8 arrows in the Air in one round is impressive. I got something like +25(x2,manyshot)/+25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 for 1d8+22 if he spends a Ki point.
EDIT: He definitely starts out slow, and can't get Improved Precise Shot until level 13. I think at 13 he would be very competitive.
Why does noone throw in Samurai?
Fighter4 (weapon master), rest samurai will provide a lot of damage, enough feats, some cool abilities and a mount (yeaaaay!)