Stingchucks from Adventurers Armory have no cost (I think) - but I think that is because a PC can't buy them.... otherwise a lot of alchemist would be using them.
Oh gosh, that thing is gross! Don't know why you would want to. Its also a 9 pound slingshot for bugs. Slingshots have no cost themselves, and weigh less, and aren't made from humanoid skulls.
Side note, slings are one of those things you have little reason not to get. No cost or weight for a sling. Might come in handy! Rocks for ammo as an option too. Club isn't bad either
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Clubs, Quarterstaffs, slings, and the like are explicitly listed in the core rulebook as recognized items, which is why you can just pick 'em up from anywhere and be good to go.
Things like pebbles are so common and easy access, that they're just assumed to be around. Is it that you keep your hoard of pebbles with you perpetually, or you just happen to find them? In fact for the some of the things you listed or are used with a pebble, they don't even necessary need to be pebbles, they can simply be an arbitrary object. It's so inconsequential, that no one cares.
A body of a creature is completely different if you intend to animate it for animate dead. Suddenly the thing you picked up has an action economy and stats. And for the purposes of a scenario, it completely matters where you managed to collect it from. It's clearly not comparable to something trivial like a pebble or a club.
Also, please note that I never said that just because an item doesn't have a cost that you can't keep it. What I said is that you can't keep an undocumented, clearly non-mundane object and transfer it between scenarios without purchasing it or being given it by the chronicle sheet. Corpses are not documented items you can collect, and are not made available on a chronicle sheet. Pebbles on the other hand, and are assumed to be easy access, and repeatedly in the core rulebook it implies that you should just be able to get them easily. Completely different category.
Regardless of who is "right" in the current argument, I think the take away from this debate is clear: a post from campaign leadership would clear this issue up.
This thread is evidence that it's murky enough to lead to some confusion about how it should be adjudicated.
Eh, well supposing you could bring anything from one scenario to another, I'm not sure if it would be okay with people taking four armed super gorillas or golems from one scenario to another. Would also be awkward if somehow you had the undead form of one of those guys fighting another from a related scenario.
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Eh, well supposing you could bring anything from one scenario to another, I'm not sure if it would be okay with people taking four armed super gorillas or golems from one scenario to another. Would also be awkward if somehow you had the undead form of one of those guys fighting another from a related scenario.Regardless of who is "right" in the current argument, I think the take away from this debate is clear: a post from campaign leadership would clear this issue up.
This thread is evidence that it's murky enough to lead to some confusion about how it should be adjudicated.
I agree, those things would cause some complications at future tables. That's why I believe a post from campaign leadership on this would be great.
That way, future GMs that encounter zombie black dragons and skeleton four armed super gorillas at the start of a scenario could have something to lean on as hard evidence that such practices are not permitted in PFS.
The alternative is a 3 page forum debate. :P
I wonder if this player thought that he could just collect up ** spoiler omitted ** and keep reanimating them.
Fear. I am playing this scenario tomorrow...hrm...
Just hope the rest of the party is fine with it. ;)
Yes. This is where LG pallies and clerics can be...interesting teammates.
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Note: You may use any item that you find during the
scenario for free until the end of the scenario, but you
must purchase the item when the scenario is over in
order for your character to be able to continue to use the
item. This rule is most applicable to consumables such as
potions, scrolls, and so on, but also applies to weapons,
magic items, and so on.
Having no listed price doesn't mean you purchased it for nothing. I wouldn't let someone take pebbles from the previous scenario either. Although, if they asked if they could pick some up on the ground of this one I would tell them to go for it.
Additionally
Every
Chronicle sheet lists all of the loot that can be found during
the scenario, with the exception of minor items available to
every Pathfinder Society character.
Other than the total hyperbole with this example, PFS would, imo, benefit from allowing some things to carry over unique to the scenario.
Not hyperbole, there really are super gorillas with four arms and 12+ HD iron golems! I seen em'!
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I'm not talking about their existence.
Let me emphasize a point that probably wasn't clear from what I wrote above. If PFS was just one long on-going campaign, what the OP did would be 100% legal. That fact that it may not be in PFS illustrates a problem with PFS, not a strength.
Think about it.
To be fair, back when Undead Lord was legal, this was a thing that you could do - but IIRC there were just too many logistical problems for it to work in an organized play campaign - thus why it is banned today. (This is me trying to remember from a couple years ago, so I many not be remembering everything correctly though.)
EDIT: You can't approach PFS as if everything that should work in a normal campaign should work in PFS. The two are built on very different social contracts, and because of that, not everything that is appropriate in one is appropriate in the other. Creating hordes of undead is one of those things.
A lot of players will take a mile if you give them an inch. There is a concern for game balance after all.
Regardless, PFS is very clear about what you can buy.
N N 959, you're right, the item cost is irrelevant to this.
However, if it isn't listed loot from a chronicle, or a listed legal item from one of the approved books, it cannot be taken at all for any PFS character. Save perhaps for flavor or other non-mechanic roleplaying fluff.
-j
Let me emphasize a point that probably wasn't clear from what I wrote above. If PFS was just one long on going campaign, what the OP did would be 100% legal. That fact that it may not be in PFS illustrates a problem with PFS, not a strength.
Think about it.
Well, for what it's worth, the GM in a home game with six friends playing around the table has a lot more that he can do about the his 5 bro's taking the zombie gorilla for the ride. He can actually change the encounters or talk to them about it(and possibly say no!)a lot easier than a PFS GM can. Especially important in that the super gorilla is of a high enough CR it stands a good chance that it will roflstomp its way through levels worth several scenarios on its own before going out of style.
I wouldn't say that its a problem or a strength with PFS that you can't pull things like this off.
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Compared to an actual home game, yes, PFS like all living campaigns has a number of limitations.
However, every one of those limitations has a reason behind it. It's not like they just come up with these restrictions because it's fun for them.
The alternative to consider, if there were no living campaigns, is not a home game. It's what was in place for convention play before living campaigns existed. it's the "classic" convention campaign event. Where a player sitting down at an game had ZERO choices in character options he could pick from, except to choose one of the pre-generated characters provided by the GM or event.
Living campaigns were an attempt to inject elements of the home game into classic events, while still maintaining a level of fairness and consistency so player could sit down and have a similar level of play experience whether at a table in Atlanta or Sydney. different campaigns have succeeded to varying degrees.
A player being able to bring in a black dragon skeleton, especially at lower levels, represents a major potential unbalancing factor for a game balanced around a certain level of player resources.
I could see it being awarded as a one-shot item on a chronicle, but a player being able to pull it out every adventure, possible multiple times an adventure, is really just too powerful.
-j
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Pebbles on the other hand, and are assumed to be easy access, and repeatedly in the core rulebook it implies that you should just be able to get them easily. Completely different category.That's right, it's categorically different. The difference is that he actually did have access to the skeleton. That puts the skeleton and the pebbles in the same category for this specific character.
Should he be able to pick-up a BSD at the market? No. But if he finds one on the ground....one necro's BSD is another druid's pebble.
And do you know how much of the scenario's gold came from the sale of the Black Dragon's bones, blood and flesh as magical components?
I know that, for some scenarios, they actually list when you have access to the dragon's skin for making armor. If that gets listed, shouldn't access to the rest of the dead dragon also be listed, if it is available?
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Let me emphasize a point that probably wasn't clear from what I wrote above. If PFS was just one long on-going campaign, what the OP did would be 100% legal. That fact that it may not be in PFS illustrates a problem with PFS, not a strength.
Think about it.
Thought about it, don't agree.
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If the scenario specifically says the corpse is an asset and part of the compensation, then it would be consumed in that adventure.And do you know how much of the scenario's gold came from the sale of the Black Dragon's bones, blood and flesh as magical components?
I know that, for some scenarios, they actually list when you have access to the dragon's skin for making armor. If that gets listed, shouldn't access to the rest of the dead dragon also be listed, if it is available?
I just opened the 2 scenarios that have dragons in them that I can think of. In both of them, the gold received for the encounter * 4 (number of expected players) is much higher than the 'treasure' you find after the encounter. Normally this evens out, meaning they expect you to sell the dragon body back if you want to get full gold for the encounter. I will specify this in future tables to prevent this from coming up again as much as possible.
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Regardless of Robert's opinions, I believe the someone from Paizo made the statement that in Pathfinder animating the dead is an evil act. It can be countered with good acts, and you don't have to be evil to animate the dead, but that the act itself is a blight upon the world.Can we just ban Animate Dead from society play already? That spell only serves to cause problems in a campaign where being evil isn't allowed. No matter how you try to slice it, animating the dead is evil.What what?
Where do you get that from? Why is animating the dirt, or a statue, or a rope not evil, but animating meat and bone evil?
Scary, sure, but where is the evil in animating a pile of bones?
-Ben.
The spell has the Evil designator and all undead are evil creatures (the only possible exceptions are ghost).
They aren't automatons, they are the ravenous for flesh creatures of horror films. You need to control them or they will try to kill everything they see, so creating undead is a evil act. You die and they start killing random people.Crating them will not instantly shift your alignment and can be balanced by other actions, but it is a Evil act in Golarion and the universe in which it is, so it is a evil action in PFS.
When playing in another universe it depend on your GM if it is a evil act or not.
Casting evil spells in PFS does not constitute an evil act. This has been gone over a lot, and I refuse to dig it up again.
True, it is not a evil act in the sense that it will shift your alignment. But it is a evil action and what your undead do can create problems. That is one of the reasons why they are removed at the end of every scenario.
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I wouldn't let someone take pebbles from the previous scenario either.And this, imo, is simply being silly. Refusing to allow someone to use pebbles from one scenario to another demonstrates a lack of perspective and comes off as small minded and an attempt to "win" the debate against allowing what the OP did. Sure, there are some things that should be screened at the gate. "Pebbles" are certainly not one of them.
Chronicle sheets are built in mechanism for tracking this stuff. But given the lack of any competency requirement for GMs, I can see how PFS might be reluctant to trust GMs with this sort of authority. I have little hope that PFS would condone what the OP did, but they should. It would improve the richness of the game.
What it shows is reading comprehension; read the parts of the post you cut out. It also shows a perspective that understands you must lose some realism for an organized play game or it falls apart.
There is no twisting of rules to put down this noble genius described in the OP, that's absurd. My wife has a character that likes to collect every gross thing she can in scenarios; she writes it all down on a spreadsheet she printed out. However, she knows she can never actually "use" any of it, it is all fluff. No mechanics have ever or will ever come from the 100+ gross things she has picked up in previous stories. The guide to organized play tells her this very clearly. The closest she ever came to "using" any of it, was taunting one of our friends whose character thinks he is a goblin with the body parts of goblins she has collected. This was pure roleplay, and no actual mechanics were involved.
If you are going to insult someones argument's, at least stay consistent in your own. Upstream you say the fact that you can bring pebbles means you can bring skeletons, you don't get to pick and choose how important the scrounge is to the player. Now you say the fact pebbles are so unimportant is a good reason to allow them. You shoot your own arguments in the foot.
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For what its worth, black dragon skeletons are at least slightly more rare than a few pebbles,Irrelevant. He legitimately encountered the skeleton, so it's there right in front of him. Doesn't matter if there is only one in all of Golarion, he found it. He didn't fluff its existence. But point taken, it's fundamentally no different, but maybe there is a categorical difference.
Not true:
It's a material component for a spell, with no listed cost. I've been told I CANT take skeletons with me from scenario to scenario because they are mundane items, and don't have a price listed anywhere. So basically, animate dead is almost useless in society play. Thanks for clarifying, I tried to find something saying I couldn't do this, but didn't. This clears it up a bit, I shall no longer make dragons.
Also, it's because I was using lesser animate dead. I'm limited to medium sized undead, and can only create one per casting.
I can't keep anything animated beyond the one scenario since permanent effects end, and I can't keep skeletons or other corpses from one scenario to the next either. I already know about the onyx cost, because I will have to buy different value onyx gems ahead of time and guess at a creature's HD when I want to raise it. Since here is no price listed for a skeleton, I can't buy it in PFS rules to my understanding, unless someone can post a source stating otherwise. Also, for pulling it out, skeleton is in a sack, sack is in a handy haversack. Move action to retrieve the sack, free action to drop the sack, spilling it's contents, standard action to cast animate dead. It's the only way it's possible to do it in combat without a full corpse being lugged around, which is a hassle and far heavier. As far as consumables go, at least one third of my total GP if not more will have been spent on just onyx by the time the character retires.
From what I read from Sumedocin posts he hasn't ever picked up a dragon skeleton. Some other poster was speculating where he could have found one and throwing some hypothesis around, but there is nothing confirming that he did any of these adventures.
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Other than the total hyperbole with this example, PFS would, imo, benefit from allowing some things to carry over unique to the scenario.Not hyperbole, there really are super gorillas with four arms and 12+ HD iron golems! I seen em'!I'm not talking about their existence.
Let me emphasize a point that probably wasn't clear from what I wrote above. If PFS was just one long on-going campaign, what the OP did would be 100% legal. That fact that it may not be in PFS illustrates a problem with PFS, not a strength.
Think about it.
In a "long on-going campaign" you would have to take the consequences of having a dragon skeleton in your backyard, including the need to keep it controlled if you crate more undead, you neighbors having problems with that, the occasional cleric of Pharasma that want to destroy it and so on.
You seem to want the positive part without the negative aspect.|
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That way, future GMs that encounter zombie black dragons and skeleton four armed super gorillas at the start of a scenario could have something to lean on as hard evidence that such practices are not permitted in PFS.Other than the total hyperbole with this example, PFS would, imo, benefit from allowing some things to carry over unique to the scenario.
Regardless of whether or not PFS would benefit from having some things carry over, this thread is not the platform for that discussion. This thread was about the legality of getting any undead-creating material you want under the clause of "it has no value, thus I can have it for free," which lead to a PC having an undead black dragon at the start of a scenario.
Also my comment was not hyperbole as it referred directly to the OP and this thread about a player that had an undead black dragon. The subsequent quip about four armed super gorillas was in direct response to another poster.
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1. The rules don't state that clearly.
Except they do. Sitri quoted them in fact. You have stubbornly stuck to your opinion despite being provided several quotes that suggest the contrary repeatedly. It's time to drop the argument of legality, because we've clearly established that it is illegal according to the guide to organized play. Constantly repeating "no it's not" will not change that, especially when you don't provide any substantial evidence from the rules that support your argument other than unrelated anecdotes. It's making it very difficult to have a constructive conversation with you. Seriously, sorry to be rude, but it's time to drop it.
But if you want to talk about whether it should be legal, that's a different conversation and can potentially be productive. Let's focus on that instead.
As I have already stated, there things that are necessary for organized play. A broad-based shotgun approach that you are adamant on asserting demonstrates a lack of finesse.
I disagree. The inability to pick stuff up from one scenario and then keep it perpetually without buying it helps maintain the WBL. WBL is important because it helps (but not always does) keep the power of PCs at a mostly consistent level. In a homebrew, this is easy to manage because the GM can choose very easily what gear their characters run into. A PFS GM however, cannot - the gear a player runs into is mandated by the scenario. If people could pick stuff up, people would save an enormous amount of money some of the common gear (rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, magic great axes/swords, ioun stones, etc) and have much more money for upgrades of said pickups. This would add up over time, and increase the power levels of PCs to such a degree that it would become a problem at higher level games like EotT.
This is relevant here, because an undead creature increases the power of a given PC, as it gives them more actions. If you pick up a body from anywhere and then take it into other scenarios with you, this is akin to giving them free gear.
There is no inconsistency in my discussion. The pebbles are a by product of the natural world. So is the skeleton. It just turns out that the one skeleton was more effective than some magic stone.
The inconsistency is that a body that can be used to animate an undead creature has significantly more value than a pebble used for Magic Stone.
In the case of the pebble, they're common to the point of being everywhere - you can literally pick a bunch off the ground at any point in time and nobody bats an eyelid. They're prolific, and incredibly easy to access.
What do they give you then? Well, they're nice for targets of light, deeper darkness, silence, etc. They're also good for Magic Stone, and in some cases can be used as (crappy) ammo for a sling. Pretty cool, but the thing is that those are finite actions that are easy for a DM to control. The rules are very confined for the uses, and even the creative uses of the pebble are not going to turn the tide of a scenario.
On the other hand, when you start talking about a body for animate dead, that becomes much more nebulous.
Undead created from animate dead can range from trivial to over powered depending on what creature you choose to raise. If you create a skeleton from a humanoid with class levels, you're likely going to get a 1HD creature that's not good for much else other than carrying stuff for you (or a silence beacon). But if you animate a purple worm corpse, that's a completely different story and makes a big difference for the purposes of combat.
It becomes particularly problematic if you take that purple worm from a scenario that it is expected to exist in and then take it to another scenario that is not designed to handle it. It becomes quite difficult to manage.
Additionally, the undead creature has an action economy. The pebble, regardless of how you use it, cannot take any actions and is not self autonomous. The pebble is an item from your inventory that you use for your own actions. An undead creature is something that is capable of acting on its own.
The problem with your argument is that you're comparing a rock to an animal companion that is not provided by a class feature, and therefore does not have enough control by the organized play rules to be well balanced. Let's also not forget that you can have up to 4HD*Level worth of undead creatures with you if you cast animate dead with desecrate, which is quite a bit more creatures than an animal companion. Not to mention you can make them fast zombies which are beefier and can take full round actions. It's not that one skeleton is more useful than a pebble or a magic stone, it's that all skeletons are more useful. Period.
Keeping an undead creature confined to a scenario that it is found in is important for not only balance reasons, but consistency. If you bring a purple worm, or even a humanoid skeleton you got from one scenario into a completely different one where such things are not normally available, you harm the consistency of different runs of the scenario across different tables. And this is particularly a problem when you get into convention play.
Really, I think the practice you're advocating would have more detrimental effects on PFS than the benefits. My necromancer is able to do fine with the things he runs into on his adventures anyway.
The difference between a club and a skeleton is that one falls under the Additional Resources and can be bought for free while the other doesn't and can't.
I'd imagine a full sized skeleton of a dragon or four armed super gorilla would be slightly more expensive than a stick.
Then again, I've never been to the forest of Golarion so maybe those things are more commonplace than I thought.
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Except they do. Sitri quoted them in fact.The rules don't and no he didn't. I've looked through the Guide and there is nothing that explicitly precludes a character from retaining something that has no cost. What's really ironic, is that Sitri's wife is in violation of the rule which you say exists because she's got stuff she can't pay for and is not on a list.
The argument that you and others have put forward is that if something provides a "mechanical" benefit, then it can't be retain. lol. I laugh because that's not stated in the rules. You made it up. It may be an intended purpose of the restriction, but it doesn't say that.
Let's look at a specific section of the Guide
You may use any item that you find during the scenario for free until the end of the scenario, but you must purchase the item when the scenario is over in order for your character to be able to continue to use the item. This rule is most applicable to consumables such as potions, scrolls, and so on, but also applies to weapons, magic items, and so on.Well, if an item has no associated cost...like a corpse or a club, then what happens? I can't "purchase" something that has no cost. When the rules aren't clear, the GM gets to decide how to adjudicate. Obviously a person can own a club so the inability to "purchase" an item doesn't preclude us from retaining it.
Your counter argument that the item has to be on a list. Well, you need to go track down Sitri's wife and start crossing things of her chronicle sheets.
Oh wait, we're back at not providing a mechanical benefit. Where is that stated again? How does that work with a club?
No, it's not 100% clear. We have five star GM asking for clarification on the skeleton because he acknowledges that the door is open.
I disagree. The inability to pick stuff up from one scenario and then keep it perpetually without buying it helps maintain the WBL.Your argument is a nonstarter because these...
As you quoted, you must purchase something to use it after the scenario is over. You cannot purchase a skeleton, and therefore you cannot use it after the scenario. My wife doesn't use anything that she writes down on her spreadsheet that she keeps with her character sheet as part of her collecting efforts. It provides flavor during the session and acts as an OOC chronicling tool after the session.
Additionally, you can't keep a club from a scenario either unless it is on the chronicle sheet. To my understanding, you can get them for free because they are listed as always available weapons with no cost, but they don't come from the scenario you found them in. Although, I can't see anyone caring if your character claimed the club you got for free was the one found in some other game.
If for some crazy reason you are not still satisfied, let's pretend for a second that you can purchase things that do not have a cost for the price of 0 gold (deviates from the definition of purchase, but I am willing to entertain the thought.) The fact that skeletons are not on the always available, additional resources list, or chronicle makes them unavailable for "purchase."
If you are claiming that you can "procure" things instead of purchasing them if you can get a previous GM is sign off on it, I am going to find a GM to write in that I found an assault rifle.
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GM - Have a gun for your next game = cheating
GM - Have an animated Black Dragon for you next game = all cool
Got it
What about
GM- You did something good for Zarta, Call in a favor from her next game.
GM- You found a barrel of acid, have that in your next game.
GM- You found flowers that have a highly contagious disease, have that in your next game.
GM- You found a dragon egg, have that hatch in your next game.
None of this stuff has prices associated with them, that means they don't need to appear on any list to get them for free right. Choosing to take them is just good outside the box thinking >.>
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And they are just as wrong. Anything else?
Sorry, I've seen more than a handful of characters who have stuff that isn't in the AR and has no listed price.
This makes me sad.
My character who worships Soralyon has taken a stone from every ruined shrine she has restored (about five at this point). When she becomes a Mystery Cultist, she will use those stones in the performance her daily obedience.
My character who went through the Wardstone Patrol took a relic from a fallen hero which was later used as the base for an enchanted amulet. This episode was a pivotal moment in her transition from Shadow Lodge to Silver Crusade.
Each of these things were discussed with the GM at the time and duly noted on my Chronicle sheets, and for me helps form a very large part of who these characters are.
No one should get any real benefit from something valueless scavenged from the scenario, but it would be a very sad thing if you couldn't take mementos purely for flavor.
EDIT: Or my portrait of the Paracountess in her underwear! What would I do without that?
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My character who worships Soralyon has taken a stone from every ruined shrine she has restored (about five at this point). When she becomes a Mystery Cultist, she will use those stones in the performance her daily obedience.
My character who went through the Wardstone Patrol took a relic from a fallen hero which was later used as the base for an enchanted amulet. This episode was a pivotal moment in her transition from Shadow Lodge to Silver Crusade.
But you paid for them, right?