Resource Pools


Homebrew and House Rules

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What are your opinions on ability resource pools? I don't mean spells, but rather things like arcane pool points and ki points. It seems like many of the new advanced class guide classes will get them. Do you find them annoying book keeping? Have you thought of any interesting systems?

I'm personally torn between giving this full BAB class of mine a resource pool or not. The class has talents with abilities the player can choose from. Some of the abilities I want the class to have are clearly something that should come at some cost or limitation. I'd hate to add extra book keeping to the class with a resource pool or per-day limitation. I considered something where each of the abilities costs a swift action made in response to another action or the abilities have to be triggered in place of an attack -- some kind of significant action economy cost.


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I love 'em. In my mind it justifies "magic" abilities for martial classes.


I like them and find them very useful. Not every class needs one though.

I agree with Ciaran - it models a finite resource - I can see resource pools as something that winds down with use.

I really like grit and its ability to replenish too.

I also do not fear extra book-keeping. ;)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I personally like them, and like Oceanshieldwolf, I don't fear extra book-keeping like a lot of people seem to. Resource pools are something I prefer over x/day abilities. I also really like the discoveries, rogue talents, rage powers, etc features, and wish more classes got something similar. Like fighters.


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I like resource pools a lot, and especially prefer them over x/day abilities. To me it seems like less bookkeeping.


I like them as that way you can choose how to spend your resources instead of having x abilities all usable y/day. And actually it reduces bookkeeping as there is just one pool instead of several pools each usable for just one ability.


I have to agree with the other posters. The only resource pools I don't like are the large ones used for psionics/spell points.

The ones used for monk, magus, etc are one of the better ideas Paizo implemented. I think my favorite adaptation of these rules are the grit mechanics. I feel they really play to a martial style when adapted.

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Hm, alright! From your feedback, a resource pool sounds appropriate for my class. Now to figure out what it scales off of. Constitution makes sense, but that doesn't sound right for a martial class since they value that stat anyway. Since my class gives a flavor option for their power source, perhaps I can make the flavor option determine the statistic the resource pool scales off of.

I do like the idea of replenishing points. I liked the idea of passive abilities that required having at least one point.

I must admit that Mythic Power is my favorite implementation of a resource pool. It's an ability that you use X per day, but your other abilities use it as a resource pool. It's not the mechanics I like, but rather the language. You're not spending "mythic points," you're spending "uses of mythic power."

Adjule wrote:
I also really like the discoveries, rogue talents, rage powers, etc features, and wish more classes got something similar. Like fighters.

I totally agree. It's one of the reasons I love the magus class. What's also nice is that often these classes have tiered talents (or talents based on level in the case of the magus). Not only can the class get more powerful talents to match the power level of full casters, but also it incentivizes single-classing. There's a big problem with martials like the fighter and gunslinger where after a certain level, there's little reason to stay with the class. They get their best abilities at around level 5. The rest of class levels simply add minor bonuses to it.

The gunslinger, in particular, baffles me because Pathfinder encourages specializing in a single weapon. So getting gun training in a second weapon is no big deal. It makes archetypes like Pistolero and Musket Master no-brainers because you'll use only one firearm for at least 8 levels anyway. Worse is that it hurts character concepts. I have a player who pictured his character being an arms master that carries an arsenal on his person and shuffles between weapons to suit the needs of a situation. However, he's stuck mostly just using his pistol because the Dexterity bonus only applies to it and not his musket.

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I hate to necro, but I got a related question.

For my full BAB martial class with a resource, I'm not sure whether the class should have a number of points equal to 1/2 level plus an ability score modifier, or just the ability score modifier. The former case makes it easier to balance the abilities the class uses the points on (many such abilities are point per spell level). However, with less points I can introduce a way to replenish points through some kind of game mechanic and make its abilities strong.

What do you think?


I like less points with replenishment but so much depends on he power of this ability and how easy it is to refresh.


Agreed with Excaliber. I'm tooling around on the side with a low pool, high recovery mechanic called bloodlust for a supernatural rogue/assassin style of play (witch elf style from WH fantasy for my setting's Drow-equivalent).

It would really depend on what you want the class to do, ie we want more details.:P

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You got a point, Excalibur. Less points with replenishment is riskier to design, but makes for a more interesting class to play.

The class (called "autoforge" but needs a better name) essentially lets the PC turn themselves into a half-construct. The theme is that they're building themselves into the ultimate warrior. They begin play with a weapon integrated to their body and a power source. At 2nd level and beyond, they get to choose from a list of new modifications to add to their body, similar to rogue talents or magus arcana.

The power source grants them a resource pool of surges to spend on the strong or supernatural abilities modifications grant. The player chooses from one of five or six power sources that determine the flavor of the character's modifications. At first level, a power source grants the following abilities:
1) Quirk, a "curse" or downside to the power source that represents the price one pays to follow this path.
2) Perk, a passive benefit that occurs as long as you have at least one power surge remaining.
3) Surge, an activation ability that expends a power surge.

Power Source types include:
1) Alchemy, where the PC's modifications are biological in nature, like new organs they grown on their body or some kind of chemical-injection system
2) Clockwork, where the PC's modifications are mechanical clockwork
3) Elemental, where the PC's modifications make them more like an elemental
4) Energy, where the PC has some kind of device that relies on an energy type. For example, electricity for electrical components or fire for a steam-based system.
5) Natural, where the PC is turning themselves into a treant-like being
6) Unlife, where the PC's modifications are body parts frankensteined onto themselves.

I'll make a separate thread for this class when I finish a first draft. Right now, I'm trying to figure out the power sources since this ties heavily to many aspects of the class.


You may want to look at Thunderscape: The World of Aden by Kyoudai Games. It's a Pathfinder setting book. One of the classes in the book is called the Golemoid, which is very similar to what you are working on.


* I like Autoforge, though just Forged could work.

* I was about to mention the Golemoid but Salazar beat me to it.

* I like the Power Sources, makes for essentially a bunch of builds and variations - I might be able to think of a couple more...


I like resource pools as long as each class doesn't get more than one and they are effectively used. Its the only thing I like about the monk class.

Of the Pathfinder resource pools, Grit is probably my hands down favorite. It is so cool, extremely evocative, offers really awesome abilities, and isn't too hard to manage. And it drives the characters to be proactive! I love that. You get more points by doing more things. That's neat. It's a reason to drive the game forward instead of slowing it down.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I'll have to check out Thunderscape. It looked interesting.

SO I need to come up with ideas on how to replenish the power surges. As Aaron suggests, it should be something active.


I don't like resource pools.I prefer x/day abilities.They could use more refinement, however.


I'm a fan of resource pools, especially Grit. Pools allow classes to have strong, thematic abilities without spammability, unless they nova, but that is as easily balanced as the GM saying: "The next wave approaches." Of course they do run into the problem of looking a bit same-y as a mechanic, but there is plenty of room for variation. I mean the monk Ki pool, Grit, and Magus arcana are three separate approaches to the same idea. Just need to know when one is appropriate for a class and when one isn't needed.

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I think there's many interesting ways to do resource pools that haven't been done yet. What would you think of a class where its abilities scaled with the amount of points remaining in its pool? Like the more energy it has, the more powerful its abilities. Or the less it has, the stronger it becomes.


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Cyrad wrote:
What are your opinions on ability resource pools? I don't mean spells, but rather things like arcane pool points and ki points. It seems like many of the new advanced class guide classes will get them. Do you find them annoying book keeping? Have you thought of any interesting systems?

They suck, vancian, x/day, or something like grit. They force your character to live on a timer and the game to play around them and then on top of that you have to keep track of them. That is anathema of fun, when you just want to sit down and play. They also don't actually help to balance that much because they aren't very static if you do x/day style because they depend on variables outside of the class. The most balanced way to do things is balancing them around being done all day, not based on variables with if's and but's to plan around. If you have to do something consider doing per encounter, it allows you to balance around encounters rather than forcing players to fight a certain amount of encounters per day.


MrSin wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
What are your opinions on ability resource pools? I don't mean spells, but rather things like arcane pool points and ki points. It seems like many of the new advanced class guide classes will get them. Do you find them annoying book keeping? Have you thought of any interesting systems?
They suck, vancian, x/day, or something like grit. They force your character to live on a timer and the game to play around them and then on top of that you have to keep track of them. That is anathema of fun, when you just want to sit down and play. They also don't actually help to balance that much because they aren't very static if you do x/day style because they depend on variables outside of the class. The most balanced way to do things is balancing them around being done all day, not based on variables with if's and but's to plan around. If you have to do something consider doing per encounter, it allows you to balance around encounters rather than forcing players to fight a certain amount of encounters per day.

Consider that HP are basically a resource pool.

Do you not find Pathfinder fun, since everyone has limited HP and can't be full throttle all day every day?


Freehold DM wrote:
I don't like resource pools.I prefer x/day abilities.They could use more refinement, however.

I prefer resource pools because then a player can balance between multiple abilities that draw from the same pool. Magus, for example, can use any number of arcana to do cool moves, can recall previously cast spells, or enhance his weapon with the same resource. It gives the player the freedom to balance those things, as opposed to vancian magic which is separate leveled slots and you can't mix and match, or X/Day which, if you don't use THAT ability X times that day it's a wasted resource.

Resource pools are closer in this respect to Power Points from psionics, which is probably why I like them so much.


Cyrad wrote:
I think there's many interesting ways to do resource pools that haven't been done yet. What would you think of a class where its abilities scaled with the amount of points remaining in its pool? Like the more energy it has, the more powerful its abilities. Or the less it has, the stronger it becomes.

Actually, that sounds pretty cool. I might have to do something with that. Question is, do I go with "less in pool=more powerful effects" or "more in pool?" I'm leaning toward the former for more of a high risk high reward situation.


meatrace wrote:

Consider that HP are basically a resource pool.

Do you not find Pathfinder fun, since everyone has limited HP and can't be full throttle all day every day?

Bit personal and a bit loaded, but I like a game where you can heal to full between each encounter yes and I like per encounter design much more than per day for a dozen reasons. I still play pathfinder, but its not my favorite game.

Details in here!:
Per encounter design allows for more flexible narrative than per day design, and has the added benefit of being easier to base your balance around because you can plan everything in one encounter rather than over the course of an expected number, which to be honest tends to be more of a variable based on the people playing. Its also easier to add in artificial forms of limitation such as fatigue, poison, starvation, etc. and make it optional than to remove limitations from an x/day system.

It feels a bit loaded to say too much without clarifying what full throttle means. Full throttle; all day, every day, could be taken a lot of ways. Takes out the need for sleep and infers there isn't even a resource in place inside of the fight such as HP at its extreme.

Pathfinder allows you to use a healstick between encounters often enough, though some tables may vary, so HP isn't super limited in a sense that its difficult to recover, but its definitely finite. My casters I've played have been stopped by their spell slots, but my warblade for example would go for days if he didn't have to sleep or fill up on HP at some point, and with a heal stick he really would go on forever it feels like. I actually really like the idea of healing up between encounters and basing the encounters per encounter, but pathfinder doesn't really work for that because it has an obsession with vancian casting, x/day, and a fear of something with unlimited use(even witch's hexes have strings attached).

I think in pathfinder my favorite casting style is power points with psionic, but I don't think it does martials very well if you just want a martial with cool powers because it tends to give you a wide option of powers that can be augmented and that could be a lot of work for a homebrew and most of the psionic powers aren't something with a martial feel such as making a heroic leap or smashing through armor with your weapon. They also tend to be a lot of powers and options and that's probably more than you want for a homebrew. Would be much easier to use something similar to ki or arcane points or even the old ToB martial adept style. Again, that's if you had to have resources and using pathfinder/3.5 as an example.


MrSin wrote:

Bit personal and a bit loaded, but I like a game where you can heal to full between each encounter yes and I like per encounter design much more than per day for a dozen reasons. I still play pathfinder, but its not my favorite game.

** spoiler omitted **...

You would probably love the framework for Star Wars Saga edition force powers. They don't scale well, but the design is purely encounter based.


Da'ath wrote:
MrSin wrote:

Bit personal and a bit loaded, but I like a game where you can heal to full between each encounter yes and I like per encounter design much more than per day for a dozen reasons. I still play pathfinder, but its not my favorite game.

** spoiler omitted **...

You would probably love the framework for Star Wars Saga edition force powers. They don't scale well, but the design is purely encounter based.

I've been told that before, I had the book once too! Just didn't have anyone interested and the only local I knew who really liked it wasn't the best guy around and I've since lost track of that copy. I've also been looking at legend by rule of cool, but again, no one around me is interested at the moment. I should probably pick up another copy of saga's to at least take a big long look at it since I've had a few years to study design and the like since I last peaked. Lots of systems to go looking through at least to get an idea about what's out there.

Should probably push this back on track with the OP's stuff. Feels like hijacking.


I personally don't love small resource pools. I think they promote a kind of min/maxing or perhaps optimization that is more than I like. With such a limited resource there is always the cry that there is only one way to build the character that is best or perhaps a couple of ways.

For me that makes character creation seem a lot more like book keeping and accounting as you worry that you have not made the "best" use of your limited resource. It is also easy to make choices and then regret them if you are not the system mastery type and just play occasionally.

The alternative of a small but fast replenishing pool doesn't do much for me either as it just encourages the 4 or less encounter per day play style so the character can always be recharged. Why both with a "limited" resource if you are in fact always recharged and never limited.

I think larger resource pools ease most of these problems and work better.

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Green Smashomancer wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
I think there's many interesting ways to do resource pools that haven't been done yet. What would you think of a class where its abilities scaled with the amount of points remaining in its pool? Like the more energy it has, the more powerful its abilities. Or the less it has, the stronger it becomes.
Actually, that sounds pretty cool. I might have to do something with that. Question is, do I go with "less in pool=more powerful effects" or "more in pool?" I'm leaning toward the former for more of a high risk high reward situation.

Good questions. Let's think about what kind of experience this can generate.

With "More Points = More Power," a PC's first expenditures will be their strongest. A PC that spends quickly will nova early and then wear out later. A PC that spends slowly will conserve their points and save them for crucial moments. I think this will make a PC stronger in short days and weaker in long days. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as some players like saving their best moves or starting off with a bang. Still, this might be best on a class that has sustained capabilities, like a martial or gish class.

With "Less Points = More Power," a PC's last expenditures will be their strongest. A PC that spends quickly will have a lot of action that reaches a quick climax. A PC that spends slowly will be weak early but gradually ramp up. This sounds suitable for a class that tries to convey a feeling of escalating power and desperation. I think this one has the better interest curve and would probably suit a mage very well.

I think both would generate interesting curves of power and allow different classes to shine at different times of a day.

In particular, I think "More Points = More Power" might be interesting if translated into a spell/ability system. What if you could cast all your spells at-will, but each casting made all further spells weaker?


Cyrad wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
I think there's many interesting ways to do resource pools that haven't been done yet. What would you think of a class where its abilities scaled with the amount of points remaining in its pool? Like the more energy it has, the more powerful its abilities. Or the less it has, the stronger it becomes.
Actually, that sounds pretty cool. I might have to do something with that. Question is, do I go with "less in pool=more powerful effects" or "more in pool?" I'm leaning toward the former for more of a high risk high reward situation.

Good questions. Let's think about what kind of experience this can generate.

With "More Points = More Power," a PC's first expenditures will be their strongest. A PC that spends quickly will nova early and then wear out later. A PC that spends slowly will conserve their points and save them for crucial moments. I think this will make a PC stronger in short days and weaker in long days. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as some players like saving their best moves or starting off with a bang. Still, this might be best on a class that has sustained capabilities, like a martial or gish class.

With "Less Points = More Power," a PC's last expenditures will be their strongest. A PC that spends quickly will have a lot of action that reaches a quick climax. A PC that spends slowly will be weak early but gradually ramp up. This sounds suitable for a class that tries to convey a feeling of escalating power and desperation. I think this one has the better interest curve and would probably suit a mage very well.

I think both would generate interesting curves of power and allow different classes to shine at different times of a day.

In particular, I think "More Points = More Power" might be interesting if translated into a spell/ability system. What if you could cast all your spells at-will, but each casting made all further spells weaker?

I have to agree with your summary of how each way would "feel" so to speak. Are you suggesting that, instead of running out of castings of a certain level of spells, it simply adversely affects the character more heavily? Maybe, we use 2 mechanics. 1. casting a spell of a certain level harms the character. 2. the lower their HP (or if we decide to go with a resource pool that fuels spell-casting, that instead-See look! We're on topic) their durations of effect, or DC's lower proportionally. This would probably require a custom spell-list to accommodate it.

But lets try to avoid a threadjack here. Instead I have a question for everybody: Would a hypothetical class using the "more points = more power" method be more interesting with a resource pool or using their own HP for this?

side note: I personally prefer the Less=more power idea for that escalating power and desperation feeling you were speaking of, and my love of martials. I certainly want to make something of this, that much is certain.


Mike Franke wrote:
The alternative of a small but fast replenishing pool doesn't do much for me either as it just encourages the 4 or less encounter per day play style so the character can always be recharged.

In the same quote you say both 'small but fast replenishing pool' and 'encourages the 4 or less encounter per day style.'

This makes zero sense. The whole point of a small-but-fast replenishing pool is that essentially the pool is a per-encounter limit on your pool-based powers. They recharge between fights so you're full at the start of every fight, but don't have the kind of Nova power available to someone with a large daily pool (which is while less casually fun to play is theoretically more powerful- assuming all else is equal- because points can be conserved during minor battles and dumped in a Nova during desperate times.


If spells were less powerful I could see a wizard that can cast unlimited spells per day but can only prepare so many at a time.

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Using a character's health as a resource is interesting though done before with the Bloatmage. Hitpoints by itself would not work because it would become a simple matter of replenishing through healing. Also, the character becomes less likely to save themselves when wounded, which would encourage the player to play extra safe and passively. This might not be what you want. Having the PC's maximum hitpoints or an ability score as the resource might do the job better.

Mike Franke wrote:

I personally don't love small resource pools. I think they promote a kind of min/maxing or perhaps optimization that is more than I like. With such a limited resource there is always the cry that there is only one way to build the character that is best or perhaps a couple of ways.

For me that makes character creation seem a lot more like book keeping and accounting as you worry that you have not made the "best" use of your limited resource. It is also easy to make choices and then regret them if you are not the system mastery type and just play occasionally.

The alternative of a small but fast replenishing pool doesn't do much for me either as it just encourages the 4 or less encounter per day play style so the character can always be recharged. Why both with a "limited" resource if you are in fact always recharged and never limited.

I think larger resource pools ease most of these problems and work better.

For your first point, it may depend on the class's dependencies. Grit works well because a gunslinger only needs Dexterity and Wisdom. But I see your point. This shed some light on my Autoforge class and made me realize that a low resource pool will make melee builds very MAD.

For many players, figuring out the best use of their resources is very fun and an integral part of the game. But I see your point here -- a low resource pool makes the class much less forgiving.

For your final point, I have a question. What if the replenishment occurred as a result of encounters? The gunslinger, for example, gains grit for killing creatures with firearms. However, he isn't always gaurenteed to get a kill in a fight, so wasting all his grit is a bad idea.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MrSin wrote:
meatrace wrote:

Consider that HP are basically a resource pool.

Do you not find Pathfinder fun, since everyone has limited HP and can't be full throttle all day every day?

Bit personal and a bit loaded, but I like a game where you can heal to full between each encounter yes and I like per encounter design much more than per day for a dozen reasons. I still play pathfinder, but its not my favorite game.

** spoiler omitted **...

Sounds like you would enjoy 4th edition, to be honest. Not sure if you have given it a shot or not. But from your comments in this thread, it seems like it would be a good match. And unlike SW:SE, there are a large number of players of 4th edition, so you may have an easier time getting a group in your area for that.


How do you intend for your pool to recharge? That is one of the big considerations. Like grit? Anytime they roll a nat 20? On defeating a foe?

I think we need some crunch at this point to be able help more.

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Da'ath wrote:

How do you intend for your pool to recharge? That is one of the big considerations. Like grit? Anytime they roll a nat 20? On defeating a foe?

I think we need some crunch at this point to be able help more.

This is a major thing I've been debating. I'd like to have an interesting replenishing mechanic based on power source, but best idea I can think of is defeating a certain type of foe. Here's my brainstorming list:

1) Defeat or critically hit a certain type of foe with an integrated weapon. For example, an unlife power source gains surges on defeat of an undead.
2) Defeat or critically hit any foe. If the foe is a type related to power source, gain an additional surge.
3) Successfully save against certain types of spells. For example, fire elemental power source gains a surge when saving against a fire spell.
4) Successfully save against your power source's quirk. For example, an autoforge with the fire energy power source gets sickened when they take fire damage. If you save against becoming sickened from this, you gain a power surge.
5) Any spellcaster has the option to sacrifice a spell slot to grant an autoforge extra surges based on the spell level.
6) Certain alchemical items can replenish surges.


The thing about resource pools:

You don't have to last all day, you just have to last longer than the other guy.

Small pools like ki impose some rationing if the rest of the party has larger pools, but once the barbarian is out of rage or the bard out of perform the party goes home, except at low level where being reduced to a warrior with toughness is acceptable.

Because of resource pools (other than grit/panache, which are fine) the pace of the game is dictated by game balance rather than plot and the GM and players are placed into conflict over it. Megadungeons may be made with this tension in mind, but APs are not and for them it's definitely a bug not a feature.

Cooldown or short rest (encounter) powers are far better. They're more likely to be associated mechanics, do not promote adversarial group dynamics, and fit better with the way Paizo wants people to play the game (ie. using Paizo APs).

All pools (except grit and panache) should be sized to one or two encounters and refresh after a short rest or be replaced with cooldowns. Or removed entirely. The 2*level+stat ones don't have any balance effect since they're the ones that dictate the length of the adventuring day.

Prepared spell slots should be immediately re-preparable (with time needed dependent on level or level squared, though probably not as high as in 1e) Spontaneous casters should probably use something based on 3.5s OGL recharge magic variant.

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Late to this, but:

I loathe them. I know this puts me in a minority. I don't like the bookkeeping, and having run with newer players, tracking pools scares them off if they are not well.

That said, there are situations where they've felt like better solutions than what came prior--for example, I prefer monks with ki points to not. I also don't mind, say, tracking bardic performance a day in rounds, but I feel like I'm spending rounds, and the number is small. But even there, I don't see them as the greatest solution ever.

I think where pools really get me is that certain ones give me a bad case of option paralysis. I've got so many points AND so many different things I could spend them on... so I'm going to sit here in the middle of combat for fifteen minutes trying to figure out whether I should spend a point and on what. Beyond learning them, which takes longer than learning other class abilities, it takes a lot more tactical planning to use them effectively. Some like that about it, of course. I'd rather just get on with it.

Another issue I have is when you give resource pools to martial characters, it adds resource management issues to classes whose benefits include "abilities may not be flashy, but are usually unlimited." In actual gameplay, where Schroedinger's Wizard doesn't exist, the wizard (or whatever) has a small handful of spells and has to be sure they prepared the right one, and when he runs out of them, he's down to spamming his cantrips. The fighter is seldom the one who pleads with the rest of the group so he can rest and regain his ability to swing a battleaxe really hard. DO NOT MISTAKE THE ABOVE FOR AN INVITATION TO ARGUE ABOUT CASTER/MARTIAL DISPARITY. I'm just getting at---hey, resource management can be a good balancing factor, but not when it reduces options for a character type that shouldn't have to worry about resource management.

As gamey as it may feel, I would vastly prefer it if Pathfinder went in the direction of cooldown-based or per encounter based abilities that Atarlost mentioned. My sense is that you should find ways to make an ability effectively unlimited whereever possible (using other balancing factors like action economics and requiring die rolls), and if it's something SO powerful it can't be allowed to be unlimited even with certain checks in place, I'd rather let it cool down and come back than have to track pools.

Tracking pools is also really annoying in play-by-post because you have to remember to edit your profile everytime you spend a point.


Cyrad wrote:

You got a point, Excalibur. Less points with replenishment is riskier to design, but makes for a more interesting class to play.

The class (called "autoforge" but needs a better name) essentially lets the PC turn themselves into a half-construct. The theme is that they're building themselves into the ultimate warrior. They begin play with a weapon integrated to their body and a power source. At 2nd level and beyond, they get to choose from a list of new modifications to add to their body, similar to rogue talents or magus arcana.

The power source grants them a resource pool of surges to spend on the strong or supernatural abilities modifications grant. The player chooses from one of five or six power sources that determine the flavor of the character's modifications. At first level, a power source grants the following abilities:
1) Quirk, a "curse" or downside to the power source that represents the price one pays to follow this path.
2) Perk, a passive benefit that occurs as long as you have at least one power surge remaining.
3) Surge, an activation ability that expends a power surge.

Power Source types include:
1) Alchemy, where the PC's modifications are biological in nature, like new organs they grown on their body or some kind of chemical-injection system
2) Clockwork, where the PC's modifications are mechanical clockwork
3) Elemental, where the PC's modifications make them more like an elemental
4) Energy, where the PC has some kind of device that relies on an energy type. For example, electricity for electrical components or fire for a steam-based system.
5) Natural, where the PC is turning themselves into a treant-like being
6) Unlife, where the PC's modifications are body parts frankensteined onto themselves.

I'll make a separate thread for this class when I finish a first draft. Right now, I'm trying to figure out the power sources since this ties heavily to many aspects of the class.

I know I am late responding to this, but do you choose your quirk at 1st level?

If so: that can be how your point pool recharges. Like: more severe drawbacks can generate more points when they happen and more frequent drawbacks will just generate points more often.

Like: a "fragile" quirk could give an enemy an extra d6 of damage when they score a critical hit. Maybe this should generate two points for your resource pool.

You can call this pool "compensation" points.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Tracking pools is also really annoying in play-by-post because you have to remember to edit your profile everytime you spend a point.

Speaking as someone who's done far more PbP than tabletop in his lifetime... why don't you just keep a tally of spent points in OOC marks at the end of each post for the duration of a thread?

For example:

OOC: 4 Ki Points spent out of 10 total, 6 remain

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Atarlost wrote:
--snip--

I completely disagree that all resources should be replenishable throughout the day.

There exists no attrition if PCs never run out of resources or can restore them without having to camp. It doesn't feel like you're adventuring if your resources replenish after every encounter. There's no tension. No variety. Without attrition, every fight feels the same. With attrition, each fight can have a drastically different feel depending on how well rested the party feels. Attrition also creates a good interest curve where an adventuring day gets harder the longer it gets. In addition, it enables all the tropes associated with adventuring, like finding a good place to camp and making sure you don't get ambushed at night.

If this isn't your cup of tea, that's fine! I totally agree with MrSin that some players may not like having their characters "on a timer." I fully support everyone playing the game in a way they prefer. However, I completely disagree with the notion that all of Pathfinder should change into something it is not to reflect the preferences of a particular subset of players, especially when those players have the option of easily house ruling the game to their tastes (just as it was intended) or simply playing a different game if they so strongly oppose Pathfinder's style of play.

In addition, your arguments for changing the game don't hold water. How does auto-restoration of all resources make for an associated mechanic when it opposes the core tropes of adventuring and the common sense notion that characters tire the longer the day goes? I don't see how creating a variety of daily power curves promote an adversarial group dynamic. Finally, APs that don't give a party the ability to rest is the fault of the AP, not the game itself. APs by their very nature tend to railroad players to progress at the story's pace rather than their own.

That being said, I've seen a lot of really good arguments against resource pools, which is why I brought up this thread. Book keeping. Analysis paralysis. Putting complicated mechanics on class-types associated with simplicity. Putting characters on a timer.


Just a note, beyond level 4 or so, Pathfinder has very little feeling of attrition anyway.

It's far easier to adjust the game to have no attrition than it is to modify it to truly give that feeling of attrition.

Not saying its not possible or even commendable in some cases, just that the easier route is to recharge between encounters.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
I think there's many interesting ways to do resource pools that haven't been done yet. What would you think of a class where its abilities scaled with the amount of points remaining in its pool? Like the more energy it has, the more powerful its abilities. Or the less it has, the stronger it becomes.
Actually, that sounds pretty cool. I might have to do something with that. Question is, do I go with "less in pool=more powerful effects" or "more in pool?" I'm leaning toward the former for more of a high risk high reward situation.

Good questions. Let's think about what kind of experience this can generate.

With "More Points = More Power," a PC's first expenditures will be their strongest. A PC that spends quickly will nova early and then wear out later. A PC that spends slowly will conserve their points and save them for crucial moments. I think this will make a PC stronger in short days and weaker in long days. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as some players like saving their best moves or starting off with a bang. Still, this might be best on a class that has sustained capabilities, like a martial or gish class.

With "Less Points = More Power," a PC's last expenditures will be their strongest. A PC that spends quickly will have a lot of action that reaches a quick climax. A PC that spends slowly will be weak early but gradually ramp up. This sounds suitable for a class that tries to convey a feeling of escalating power and desperation. I think this one has the better interest curve and would probably suit a mage very well.

I think both would generate interesting curves of power and allow different classes to shine at different times of a day.

In particular, I think "More Points = More Power" might be interesting if translated into a spell/ability system. What if you could cast all your spells at-will, but each casting made all further spells weaker?

Hey, just had a thought - what if you included both? Here's how it would work:

Each pool grants a different passive bonus based on what power source they chose. For example, the Natural power source could give a bonus to Natural Armor, Elemental could grant Energy Resistance, Unlife could give a save bonus (Will or Fortitude, maybe?). Each of these passive abilities would scale based on how many points you have left in your pool, giving players an incentive to stock up on points to gain the biggest benefits.

Players could also spend their points to activate powerful abilities - Alchemy could modify a physical ability score in a way similar to the Mutagen, Clockwork could buff you (an ability called Overclock that grants Haste would be neat!), and Energy could add damage to your attacks. I was going to suggest scaling these based on how few points you had in your pool, but that might be too much bookkeeping :P

Thoughts?

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Excaliburproxy wrote:

I know I am late responding to this, but do you choose your quirk at 1st level?

If so: that can be how your point pool recharges. Like: more severe drawbacks can generate more points when they happen and more frequent drawbacks will just generate points more often.

Like: a "fragile" quirk could give an enemy an extra d6 of damage when they score a critical hit. Maybe this should generate two points for your resource pool.

You can call this pool "compensation" points.

Hm, perhaps. Yes, you can choose your power source, which determines your quirk. Though I haven't considered letting you choose a quirk in itself, but I think it might be best combined with the power source. Still, I think you're onto something here. It might encourage players to say...choose a weakness to fire over a weakness to acid. The latter will happen less frequently, but also mean you have less chance to restore points.

LuniasM wrote:

Hey, just had a thought - what if you included both?...

I really like these ideas! Especially Overclock. It would be really cool if the passive abilities could scale with points, but it would be difficult to adjust the numbers to a reasonable level. For example, getting a potential +3 or +4 natural armor bonus at first level would be ridiculous. I couldn't make it some calculation either because that would make the book keeping annoying.

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kyrt-ryder wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Tracking pools is also really annoying in play-by-post because you have to remember to edit your profile everytime you spend a point.

Speaking as someone who's done far more PbP than tabletop in his lifetime... why don't you just keep a tally of spent points in OOC marks at the end of each post for the duration of a thread?

For example:

OOC: 4 Ki Points spent out of 10 total, 6 remain

*shrug* Either way, it's extra bookkeeping. I do the profile because most of the games I'm in do the thing where you put important stuff like that in the statline where it's easy to see--takes more time but won't get buried in a long post.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:
The alternative of a small but fast replenishing pool doesn't do much for me either as it just encourages the 4 or less encounter per day play style so the character can always be recharged.

In the same quote you say both 'small but fast replenishing pool' and 'encourages the 4 or less encounter per day style.'

This makes zero sense. The whole point of a small-but-fast replenishing pool is that essentially the pool is a per-encounter limit on your pool-based powers. They recharge between fights so you're full at the start of every fight, but don't have the kind of Nova power available to someone with a large daily pool (which is while less casually fun to play is theoretically more powerful- assuming all else is equal- because points can be conserved during minor battles and dumped in a Nova during desperate times.

Yea I didn't mean literally, I meant the "play style" of always being at or near full power which is what encourages the 4 or less encounters mentality in the current rules.

I like needing to be careful with my abilities as a. Caster plus it helps even out martials and casters. After all the original balance of fighter to wiz was fighter "ok all day" vs wizard awesome for 10 minutes.


As an alternate magic system I like something similar to the idea of over-channel in psionics.

Perhaps a large point pool for low level effects but in order to "ramp it up" a wiz must make some sort of check to represent the strain of powerful spell casting. Fail at the check and you are damaged or even the spell fails.

Example: 1d4 magic missile all day. Ramp it up to 3d4 easy check 5d4 moderate check.

Cone of cold : you need to make a moderate check just to cast, extra damage make a difficult check

Wish: starts out as a difficult check

Perhaps there could be rituals to offset the checks for high level magic but they require time,special locations, ingredients, sacrifices, planetary alignments, etc.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:

I know I am late responding to this, but do you choose your quirk at 1st level?

If so: that can be how your point pool recharges. Like: more severe drawbacks can generate more points when they happen and more frequent drawbacks will just generate points more often.

Like: a "fragile" quirk could give an enemy an extra d6 of damage when they score a critical hit. Maybe this should generate two points for your resource pool.

You can call this pool "compensation" points.

Hm, perhaps. Yes, you can choose your power source, which determines your quirk. Though I haven't considered letting you choose a quirk in itself, but I think it might be best combined with the power source. Still, I think you're onto something here. It might encourage players to say...choose a weakness to fire over a weakness to acid. The latter will happen less frequently, but also mean you have less chance to restore points.

LuniasM wrote:

Hey, just had a thought - what if you included both?...

I really like these ideas! Especially Overclock. It would be really cool if the passive abilities could scale with points, but it would be difficult to adjust the numbers to a reasonable level. For example, getting a potential +3 or +4 natural armor bonus at first level would be ridiculous. I couldn't make it some calculation either because that would make the book keeping annoying.

Perhaps you could fix that problem. Here's an example:

Source Pool:
At 1st level the autoforge attracts energy from various sources (such as the environment and elemental energy) to fuel their abilities. At the start of each day this pool fills with a number of points equal to your (insert ability score here) modifier. This value fluctuates over the course of the day but usually cannot exceed their (insert ability score here) modifier plus 1/2 their autoforge level.

Source Threshold:
When enough power gathers in and around the Autoforge it coalesces, granting them protection from danger and augmenting their abilities. An autoforger's Source Pool has a threshold equal to half the maximum number of points (rounded up). When the number of points remaining in the source pool is equal to or greater than the source threshold the Autoforge may spend a swift action to activate their Power Source's passive ability. Once active this ability requires no concentration or additional effort to maintain, but if the remaining number of Source Pool points drops below the threshold the passive ability ends. An autoforge may dismiss their passive ability as a free action.

Not exactly worded the best, I know, but I hope it gives you an idea of what I was thinking. There are two ways I can think of to provide scaling bonuses:

1) As you level up you could add new thresholds that provide larger and / or more powerful bonuses when they are met or exceeded - for instance, you could add an Improved Threshold ability at level 6-7 or so that has a higher value (maybe 2/3 the pool's maximum?) that scales the original bonus and adds an additional effect, then a Greater Threshold ability around level 14-15 that scales the original and adds yet another bonus (perhaps when the source pool is filled?). For instance, the Natural source could grant a +2 AC bonus to natural armor at the original threshold, another +2 AC and ignoring 10' of difficult terrain at the improved threshold, and culminating with another +2 AC and something like Pounce at the greater threshold (that one might be too good, but that's why I don't write crunch). This method allows the autoforge to feel variable and encourages pool management, but requires more bookkeeping.

2) Don't add new thresholds - instead, have the passive bonus increase at certain levels. For instance, the Natural Source would grant a +2 AC bonus to natural armor starting at 1st level, and then increase by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels afterwards to a maximum of +6 at level 20. This method is much more simple and allows players to spend less time tracking their pool but also makes it easier to abuse the source pool - after all, if you gain the full bonus after meeting the threshold, what's stopping you from skirting the limit?

That's about all the thinking I can manage tonight, hope this helps!

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Making the threshold half makes sense. It makes me think of the bloodied condition in 4th Edition -- which I kind of liked.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Ah, sleep does wonders for the mind. I just wanted to say you've got a really good idea going here and I can't wait for it to get released so I can try it out!

Anyway, reading your comparison to 4e's Bloodied condition got me thinking - what if certain sources / powers switched the threshold so you got passive abilities when you're low on points? For example, someone could make an autoforge with a fire-based Elemental power source that uses a larger number of points at once - sort of like building up power and releasing it all at once - and then gains a passive ability when they're below the threshold to symbolize the aftereffects of releasing so much energy simultaneously.

Basically, I'm imagining a guy taking hits and building up energy, then releasing it all as a giant explosive fireball to take out nearby enemies - then, as the smoke clears, he's just standing in the middle of a crater with a wild look in his eyes. His skin looks red-hot and his sweat evaporates upon touching it. He then charges at someone at high speed (speed boost, maybe?) and the area around him simmers and burns nearby foes. Actually, that gives me an idea:

Simmer Down:
When the autoforge's Source Pool is below its threshold, they can release excess heat into the surrounding area to burn foes. Enemies who begin their turn within 15' of the autoforge take fire damage equal to the autoforge's level. A successful fortitude save halves this damage (DC 10 + 1/2 autoforge level + ability mod)).

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I think that might be a bit complicated, but interesting though.

I'm still struggling to think of good replenishment mechanics aside from saving against things or killing certain things. It doesn't make much sense for my class to get energy when they kill ordinary creatures.

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