Interest check: Playing Ultimate Campaign as a Civilization-style game


Recruitment

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Races have previously been costed, but all races were assumed to have leadership capability (based on primary/secondary) and military capability (likewise)

A) Would a non-leadership capable race be costed differently?
--A race and it's half-breeds, assuming slightly higher than standard fantasy racism.. No leadership capability, but no problem with them in other roles.

B) Would a non-military capable race be costed differently?
--A highly stratified caste society, though this would make more sense with the leaders being in the smaller population than the larger.

C) Would a purely servile race be costed differently?
--I'm thinking of the Parshmen from the Stormlight Archive, basically a pure servant/slave race.


If we do go with the new world created by the gods (us) there really is very little story required. What makes any race weirder than a dwarf or an elf considering that those races might not even exist if someone doesnt choose them.


Chris O'Reilly wrote:
If we do go with the new world created by the gods (us) there really is very little story required. What makes any race weirder than a dwarf or an elf considering that those races might not even exist if someone doesnt choose them.

You can still give them a story. Remember, just because the world is created ex-nihilo doesn't mean your race has to be.

Heck, I've been tooling up a creation myth for my critter. I haven't written it down yet (I should) but I know the key points for it.


Yeah, the world was created from nothing, but the races don't have to be. Even if they are created for the game having an idea of why they are/how they became what they are and giving them a proper identity as a race makes it more fun.


Well, I'm back. More or less.

My intent is to balance the races on the meta-level, so even having an amazing race doesn't get you more actual bonuses than a mediocre one, just a better selection to choose the ones you actually will benefit from from.

That being said, I have no idea yet how I'm going to do that. I will ask for at least a little background and description of a custom race, just to give some flavor to what they build. But it is a mechanics-focused game, so it won't be more than a few sentences.


Kinda what I was thinking back on the racial powers thing: Everyone gets a couple.


Shouldn't we be getting some significant benefits if we're paying an extra 20 or 40 BP in order to get advanced or monstrous characters? I think that entitles you to a bit more than extra options to pick from. Or am I misunderstanding something?


If there is still place, count me in.


Since this is the first time running a game of this magnitude for Bobson, I'm of a srong opinion that we shouldn't make this as hard on Bobson as we are making it.

This is a mechanics based game, and he has to keep in mind that PC races need to be balanced for starting out. To make it super easy for him, I'm going to make a human, dwarf, or elf civilization. This is a numbers and map driven game primarily with some 1-2 sentence flavor texts for events. Let's keep it at that and explore these other options for Game #2 after we play-test what works and what doesn't.


Peanuts wrote:
Shouldn't we be getting some significant benefits if we're paying an extra 20 or 40 BP in order to get advanced or monstrous characters? I think that entitles you to a bit more than extra options to pick from. Or am I misunderstanding something?

No, you're directly addressing the tension here. On the one hand, spending BP on a race should give you bonuses for what you spend. On the other hand, spending initial BP for an ongoing benefit that lasts the entire game could be very unbalancing. I'm not striving for perfect balance, just "in the same ballpark".

What I'm thinking is something like "You get three racial benefits", and the stronger races get stronger options to choose from, but are still limited to those three. Thus they don't completely overpower weaker races (because they still only get a few specific benefits), but you do still get something for your points (more & better options).

That being said, this is still very much up in the air, and introneurotic's point is a good one. If it gets too hard to make it work, I'll just cut races back to being an entirely flavor-based option. They were introduced accidentally by the Proxy rules, in order to affect leadership stats, and while I agree it makes sense to have each race be different, it may be too much to deal with for now.

-------

In unrelated news, I've finished writing up all the edicts. That just leaves two major and two minor sections left: Recruiting armies and Mass Combat are the major; finalizing the initial setup rules and the new building-specific information are the minor.

Progress is being made!


hmmm, fair enough. In that case my suggestion would be that rather than having people spend points buying a race and then trying to assign benefits to them you just come up with the list of benefits you want to be available, give them an appropriate BP cost, and you can reverse engineer the race from those options. Essentially turn the race benefits list into a mini race builder.

So if you select bonuses to exploration speed/cost, an ability to farm hills or mountains for a less ridiculous cost, and bonuses to spot and beat monsters, then that would fit with the strix; while someone else taking a bonus to exploration speed/cost, cheaper roads and better communications, and something else might be a race of centaurs.

I think the key is to keep this system you're cobbling together as simple as possible, rather than trying to account for every single thing :) That way lies madness.

If you go with the above, I'd also add a fourth, seperate option list for stat points based on the stuff from the race builder (so people can get those non-standard arrays with +4 Str, -2 Wis, -2 Cha and what have you)


I am glad that we will be able to look at the rules in full soon. Also I have decided to call my race pronda(s).


Bobson wrote:
Progress is being made!

Good News :)


Just a FYI: I've actually decided to cut an optional system that added excessive complexity.

Ultimate Battle has a system for recruiting armies day-by-day, a handful of d6s worth at a time. It's a cool system that prevents armies from appearing from nowhere, and it allows you to have a pool of recruits not yet assigned to army units, but it's a huge amount of additional rolling that just doesn't seem worth it to me. You'd need to make up to 30 Loyalty checks (since we work at month-long scales), and then recruit something like 40-60 d6's worth of recruits (depending on buildings and check results).

If people are interested, I'll throw it in. I'm not totally opposed to it - just inclined against it.

----------

I'm also trying to decide how to pay mercenaries, since they typically need gold in addition to BP, but the kingdom's treasury is measured in BP, not gp. Thoughts?


I'd like to join in too if it's still possible. (thinking about elf or thieflings)

About the BP to gp thing, if i'm not mistaken there is a rule where bp could be turned into gp and gp could be used to enrich the nations treasure(bp). The rules had a penalty for transforming one to the other i think (dont have the rules with me atm). But it should give an idea for the adjusted price.


I think 1 BP = 2000gp or something like that, but you lost a few points of Loyalty if you withdraw funds for your own personal use. I'm not positive about the specifics, though.


Bobson wrote:

Just a FYI: I've actually decided to cut an optional system that added excessive complexity.

Ultimate Battle has a system for recruiting armies day-by-day, a handful of d6s worth at a time. It's a cool system that prevents armies from appearing from nowhere, and it allows you to have a pool of recruits not yet assigned to army units, but it's a huge amount of additional rolling that just doesn't seem worth it to me. You'd need to make up to 30 Loyalty checks (since we work at month-long scales), and then recruit something like 40-60 d6's worth of recruits (depending on buildings and check results).

If people are interested, I'll throw it in. I'm not totally opposed to it - just inclined against it.

----------

I'm also trying to decide how to pay mercenaries, since they typically need gold in addition to BP, but the kingdom's treasury is measured in BP, not gp. Thoughts?

I trust your judgement when it comes to the battle system. If we try one way and you find it not working well, I would be fine switching methods midstream.

Using BP to pay for mercenaries would save conversion effort and keep it equal; I believe the GP to BP conversion scales with the size of your nation, and it would give a larger nation an advantage to use GP instead of BP.


Yeah, there is a BP-to-GP conversion, but it has accompanying Unrest generation. I've used that formula's numbers for commissioning magic items to boost your Proxies (increasing the BP cost appropriately and generating Unrest), but since mercenaries are an ongoing expense, having an ongoing Unrest generation engine seems problematic.

I could just increase their cost without the unrest, but at some point it becomes "why bother instead of recruiting my own?". I'll play with the numbers a bit and see how it goes.


Bobson wrote:
Yeah, there is a BP-to-GP conversion, but it has accompanying Unrest generation. I've used that formula's numbers for commissioning magic items to boost your Proxies (increasing the BP cost appropriately and generating Unrest), but since mercenaries are an ongoing expense, having an ongoing Unrest generation engine seems problematic.

It makes sense that hiring mercenaries might cause unrest. It also makes sense that it might generate less unrest than simply running off with kingdom funds.

Much like how equipping the king with magic armor would likely generate more unrest than putting a magical spring in town square, even if the costs involved were the same.


If we have mercenaries as is being discussed thenI would do a 1.5 or 2 times consistent unrest increase of the GP to BP.


Did I mention that I am excited for this game?

Silver Crusade

Is it too late to show interest or are there too many players already?


Im not entirely sure if this thread is officially in recruitment mode or not, but Id like to apply with the Azurans. The race was made for another game which sadly died in its infancy.

Basic concept is a nation of elves, reared from their earliest tribal days by Azurilaa, a Blue dragon which has by now grown so ancient and powerful she has transitioned into minor deity territory.

The nation is Lawful-neutral for the most part, with Evil undertones, although that evil is more in the eyes of their neighbors or those they have conquered.

Large worgs and half dragons feature, although the former are mostly seen in military service as mounts, while the latter are a rare sight, but universally hold positions of power.

The people as a whole have a very xenophobic outlook, believing themselves superior to all other races except blue dragons, in true elves fashion. Their philosophy is one of "Take what you have the power to take, as long as it is for the people, not just yourself". Of course that doesn't stop those in power from straying from that edict, even as they preach it to the general public.

Basically a quasi military state, with a focus on service to the people. Its at once mundane, being elves, with a rather different outlook to the norm, with a few fantastical creatures sprinkled on top :)

Their involvement would likely be by decree of their dragon goddess, who holds her people in high regard and is certain they will win this little "contest"

Looking forward to seeing seeing where this goes


slin2678 wrote:
Is it too late to show interest or are there too many players already?

Definitely not too late! We're still in the "hammering out rules" phase. Hopefully the actual recruitment will start in early May, but I've been saying it's "two weeks away" for over a month now...


Haha :) thats ok, i at least dont mind waiting, and as im waiting, i am trying to devour the kingdom building rules (which i finally found) and the mass combat rules. After that i imagine i could lend a lot more help to creating this game rather than just watching from the sidelines.


Just checking in to say I've finally finished the section on recruiting and equipping armies. It's probably the section that's most changed from what's in the default army rules. A few highlights:

  • 100 soldiers is now a Large army, but still the "default" size for multipliers.
  • You have regular troops of three qualities (Regulars, Militia, and Conscripts), and a small number of Elite troops who have class levels. I still haven't figured out commanders yet, though.
  • Equipment does not increase monthly Consumption, but there are tradeoffs to various choices. Ranged weapons increase Consumption in every week they're used.
  • Multiple kinds of siege engines.
  • Mounts, Chariots, and Howdahs... If you ever wanted to build a Tyrannosaurus-riding army, now you can! (Supply of dinosaurs not included. See store for details. All rights reserved. The purchaser assumes all liability for all damages caused by rampaging dinosaurs. Dinosaurs may be larger than pictured. Use at your own risk. Do not taunt Happy Fun Tyrannosaurs. Member FDRUN. An equal-opportunity eater. )
  • Healing potions which don't consume your attack and emergency rations which let you "save up" Consumption.

    Next up are the new combat rules, including round-by-round tactical initiative, many more commander boons, and finally figuring out whether Proxies get class levels. Once all that is done, I'll start sharing it with my first readers as I finish up the rest.

    Without the OGL stuff, the document is up to 24 pages and ~7500 words. For comparison, a full page of rules from one of Paizo's books runs 800-1000 words per page.


  • Looks interesting. I will try a tengus kingdom.


    FDRUN?


    Very quick update as I'm about to pass out....

    I've shared the rules with my alpha-readers!

    I've created a system of randomly generated and leveling Champions to be your army commanders, diplomats, and the people you make into Proxies, so Proxies aren't luck of the dice any more!

    The current page count is 32!

    I'm up way too late!


    Sounds interesting, you're putting a lot of work into this, looking forward to it!


    I'm looking forward to it as well. :)


    Still very interested.


    Peanuts wrote:
    Sounds interesting, you're putting a lot of work into this, looking forward to it!

    I've definitely put a lot more work into it than expected. Much, much, much more than expected. Quote from the end of March:

    A clueless Bobson wrote:

    As far as progressing this goes, I'm hoping to have the house rules file assembled by the end of the weekend (incorporating Ultimate Campaign, most optional rules from it, the UR/UB additions, and my own tweaks and extras), at which point I'll start official recruitment. No promises, but that's my goal. (It's possible it'll just be the kingdom rules, not yet the mass combat ones - that may need to wait for the following weekend.)

    That said, it's been kindof fun assembling it all, integrating all the new stuff from the addon books, applying my own preferred tweaks, and making it work together without PCs at the heart of the system.


    You have quite a expedition of creation going on here. I've found it interesting to read so far.

    whether or not I'd try to join depends more on the crowd check once it's all truly said and done (I don't want to overwhelm you any more than the others), but I wish you luck on this, and if it goes well, I wish your pardon if I make my own notes off it for the future. XD

    It'd be fun to half train 'adventurers' in an abstract way to work as power pieces. One way to help deal with deadly monsters and tip scales, but more of a blow if they die, because of it taking time to really replace them. Like a game of chest, and trying to get a pawn across the board to be a queen (except it's more like upgrades than going from meek to chique or whatever the word is).

    I'll have to look into those two books simply for collection sake if nothing else. I like the downtime and kingdom building stuff.


    Forgive the double post. Wanted to pitch in some thoughts myself if some things have or have not been worked out.

    For the 'races involved' part, normally there's a myriad of races in a community, though obviously more xenophobic ones may be much more limited. It may be better to not look at 'race building' as the source of the perks, so much as 'culture building'. If your group is made mostly of certain races, and they've been around a while, they may have a particular style they've favored over time, and -that- is what you get. Not every goblin may like to build things per se, not every gnome has to sniff alchemical fumes, it's just the mold of the culture.

    The point being, if you don't spend those points to expand your bonuses, you have an 'advantage' in BP or the like to help build up quicker. Whereas if you spend to buy some advantages, if you can manage to build up despite the lack of the extra resources, then you have an edge then.

    Make it possible to maybe buy those perks later on (if perhaps temporarily) and it doesn't really matter. It just becomes a play style preference more than anything. It can represent your culture changing significantly in some way.


    I don't know how developed the party idea is, but I'm certainly interested in this if there's space for one more - bookkeeping is no problem for me, and I have a lot of experience with the Kingmaker rules (I've DMed it twice).

    I'd want to build a kingdom loosely based off of Petyr Baelish, from Game of Thrones. Appeasement and diplomacy and trickery over outright conflict. Economics over war. Etc. Etc.


    I've just finished reading the rules, and if you're amiable, I'd love to be included in this. Thinking of a sneaky a$%*#*~-ish nocturnal drow kingdom.

    Let me know if I can be included and feel free to PM me rules, if you want.


    Just checking into this again, still interested ^_^


    YES! I thought this recruitment had died and am happy I checked it.
    I see several people talking about the rules so how would I get them myself?


    Gridlock god of Rage wrote:

    YES! I thought this recruitment had died and am happy I checked it.

    I see several people talking about the rules so how would I get them myself?

    Just what's been posted here, except for the two people I sent my v0.7 draft to. There's a lot of snippets posted throughout the thread, some of which are still in the draft, some which got modified by discussions here.

    For what it's worth:

    Version v0.8 will have the rest of the mass combat rules.
    Version v0.9 will have all the minor gaps filled in, and will hopefully get a bit of playtesting. I'll probably post some variant of this here for overall comments from people.
    Version v1.0 will incorporate any suggestions from this thread, and will be the version I use to post the actual recruitment thread.


    I am fine with waiting and love the rules so far. If I don't get to play I may you your rules for my own campaign.
    Also I have a problem with the normal BP gain because you never know exactly how much income you get so can there be an option for rolling for your BP and taking consumption off the top in a high risk high rewaard style?


    My curiosity is piqued. I'm looking forward to it!


    Bobson wrote:
    Peanuts wrote:
    Shouldn't we be getting some significant benefits if we're paying an extra 20 or 40 BP in order to get advanced or monstrous characters? I think that entitles you to a bit more than extra options to pick from. Or am I misunderstanding something?

    No, you're directly addressing the tension here. On the one hand, spending BP on a race should give you bonuses for what you spend. On the other hand, spending initial BP for an ongoing benefit that lasts the entire game could be very unbalancing. I'm not striving for perfect balance, just "in the same ballpark".

    What I'm thinking is something like "You get three racial benefits", and the stronger races get stronger options to choose from, but are still limited to those three. Thus they don't completely overpower weaker races (because they still only get a few specific benefits), but you do still get something for your points (more & better options).

    Why exactly balance it through "spend X BP to play X race"? I mean, just throw that out the window and balance them in terms of abilities.

    For instance, a nation of Orcs would obviously have strong armies, but with the penalty to mental stats then they have trouble making their kingdom checks. The challenge for them isn't military, it's just keeping their kingdom together. Meanwhile you might have a nation of halflings with weaker military, but are much better at making kingdom checks.

    Interesting concept though.


    CommandoDude wrote:
    Bobson wrote:
    Peanuts wrote:
    Shouldn't we be getting some significant benefits if we're paying an extra 20 or 40 BP in order to get advanced or monstrous characters? I think that entitles you to a bit more than extra options to pick from. Or am I misunderstanding something?

    No, you're directly addressing the tension here. On the one hand, spending BP on a race should give you bonuses for what you spend. On the other hand, spending initial BP for an ongoing benefit that lasts the entire game could be very unbalancing. I'm not striving for perfect balance, just "in the same ballpark".

    What I'm thinking is something like "You get three racial benefits", and the stronger races get stronger options to choose from, but are still limited to those three. Thus they don't completely overpower weaker races (because they still only get a few specific benefits), but you do still get something for your points (more & better options).

    Why exactly balance it through "spend X BP to play X race"? I mean, just throw that out the window and balance them in terms of abilities.

    For instance, a nation of Orcs would obviously have strong armies, but with the penalty to mental stats then they have trouble making their kingdom checks. The challenge for them isn't military, it's just keeping their kingdom together. Meanwhile you might have a nation of halflings with weaker military, but are much better at making kingdom checks.

    Interesting concept though.

    That's the goal behind the "You get three bonuses" scenario. Because otherwise you get the kingdom of kobolds that has a hard time with everything, and the kingdom of aasimar which is just good at everything. Not that I want every race to be perfectly equal! But I want them in the same ballpark, or to have some other penalty to balance just flat out being better.

    I might make it more generic, though. "Choose three types of things to get +2 to all rolls of, and one to get -2 to", or something like that. So race becomes more flavor than directly influencing the rolls. You'd just choose a race that fit with the bonuses you wanted (or vice versa).

    I'm actually in the midst of doing a similar rethink with the Champion/Proxy class system, based on my beta reader's feedback. Rather than spell out all 20 classes and have (weighted based on kingdom) chances of each, just abstract it down to "Arcane caster (Int)", "Arcane caster (Cha)", "Melee fighter (Str)" or something like that.

    The Exchange

    very interesting idea, I've thought along similar lines.


    So by the looks of thing it is getting more vague but more ethishent which also makes it more adaptive.


    Bobson wrote:

    For what it's worth:

    Version v0.8 will have the rest of the mass combat rules.
    Version v0.9 will have all the minor gaps filled in, and will hopefully get a bit of playtesting. I'll probably post some variant of this here for overall comments from people.
    Version v1.0 will incorporate any suggestions from this thread, and will be the version I use to post the actual recruitment thread.

    It has only been two months since you started this thread. You are making amazing progress! Keep up the good work, and save a seat for me ;)


    Restating interest. That is all.


    Still looks great, keep up the good work :)

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