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I heard my name. I suppose that means it's time for me to say that I've been following along since I left, and that I've got a couple of new MCA concepts. :D
1. Bard/Alchemist, the Synthesized Voice. Why do the singing when you can use technology to do it for you?
2. Summoner/Gunslinger, the Siege Lord. My eidolon is a siege engine, your argument is invalid.
3. Magus/Witch (based a bit on the Wicked Wrecker Fighter from d20pfsrd publishing and slightly on the Half-Elf Bonded Witch from the ARG), the Occult Porcupine. Oh, the wonders of bonded armor spikes.
Also, on the topic of calling dibs;
Slayer/Inquisitor for sure, and perhaps alchemist/swashbuckler~The alchemist/swashbuckler is definitely intriguing. As for the Slayer/Inquisitor HERE is my post calling that combination from December last year. By all means go for it if my concept doesn't match yours...
hmm, I may divert my attention to an Investigator/Paladin then, see if I can rework my old idea of a medicine/first aid style healer. And I think I indented my other idea to be Samurai/Swashbuckler, I mayyyy have alchemists on the mind~
Though I guess these ideas will only see light when we've introduced the new classes to our system, so I'm sure nothing's set in stone right now until release
OK, here's the proposed final Master Metamorph.
Starfox, you'll be up next with Saitn of Rogues once this one is complete. Lindley, you'll be after Starfox is done with his.
One of alchemy’s greatest dreams is to perfect the art of shapechanging, allowing one to flow from form to form like quicksilver. Through alchemical experimentation, the master metamorph has finally achieved this. Master metamorphs have given up their study of bombs for an expanded knowledge of polymorph magic that allows them to confuse their enemies and assume any shape they please. It is through their brewing of potent metamorphic mutagens to assume a specific form for extended periods of time, or shift between multiple forms at higher levels.
Primary Class: Alchemist.
Secondary Class: Wizard.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The master metamorph may select three wizard skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal alchemist class skills. The master metamorph gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The master metamorph is proficient with all simple weapons, with light armor, but not with shields.
Extracts: A master metamorph adds the following spells to his formulae list at the indicated formulae levels.
1st level–aspect of the falcon, aspect of the nightingale, borrow skill, bristle, comprehend languages, face of the devourer, ironbeard, pass without trace, strong wings, windy escape;
2nd level–agathion appearance (lesser)*, angelic aspect (lesser)*, animal aspect, ape walk, aspect of the bear, buoyancy, devilish demeanor (lesser)*, dwarven veil, lockjaw, object shape I*, tree shape;
3rd level–aspect of the stag, blessing of the mole, glibness, greater animal aspect, monstrous extremities, spit venom, strong jaw;
4th level–aspect of the wolf, blessing of the salamander, cloud shape, hellmouth lash, mighty strength, object shape II*, threefold aspect;
5th level–agathion appearance*, angelic aspect*, devilish demeanor*, geniekind, object shape III*;
6th level–divine vessel, ethereal jaunt, frightful aspect, greater polymorph, ice body, object shape IV*, swarm skin.
(*New spells - Wiki)
Deceptive Alchemy: This functions exactly like the alchemist’s alchemy ability. In addition, the master metamorph adds Bluff and Disguise to his list of class skills. He also gains a competence bonus equal to 1/2 his level on all Disguise checks and on Bluff checks made to maintain his role when using metamutagen. This ability modifies alchemy.
Metamutagen (Su): This is similar to the alchemists mutagen ability, but with the following changes. When a master metamorph brews a metamutagen, it grants him special metamorphic abilities. It’s a standard action to drink a metamutagen. Upon being imbibed, the master metamorph can transform himself in a variety of ways, granting him the effects of a enlarge person or reduce person spell for 10 minutes per master metamorph level.
As the master metamorph gains levels, his metamutagen can duplicate the effects of more powerful transmutation spells. Whenever a master metamorph brews a metamutagen, he gains the effect of one of these transmutation spells instead of the enlarge person or reduce person spell. At 3rd level and every two levels thereafter, the master metamorph can choose one of the following transmutation spells at the indicated levels.
3rd level–alter self, object shape I*, tree shape;
5th level–agathion appearance (lesser)*, angelic aspect (lesser)*, beast shape I, devilish demeanor (lesser)*, monstrous physique I, undead anatomy I;
7th level–beast shape II, elemental body I, monstrous physique II, vermin shape I;
9th level–agathion appearance*, angelic aspect*, beast shape III, devilish demeanor*, elemental body II, geniekind, monstrous physique III, object shape III, plant shape I, undead anatomy II, vermin shape III;
11th level–beast shape IV, elemental body III, form of the dragon I, monstrous physique IV, object shape IV*, undead anatomy III;
13th level–elemental body IV, form of the dragon II, giant form I, plant shape III, statue;
15th level–agathion appearance (greater)*, angelic aspect (greater)*, devilish demeanor (greater)*, form of the dragon III, giant form II, undead anatomy III;
17th level–shapechange.
(*New spells - Wiki)
Upon reaching 5th level, and every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and so on), a master metamorph can choose a new metamutagen spell in place of a spell he has already chosen. In effect, the master metamorph loses the spell in exchange for the new one. The new metamutagen spell must be chosen from the same list of spells as the old one. A master metamorph can only change one metamutagen spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the transmutation spell at the time he gains a new metamutagen spell for the level.
This ability otherwise functions as mutagen and replaces mutagen and bombs.
Trained Metamorph: At 1st level, a master metamorph learns to use transmutation magic with great effect and gains the following transmutation school and shapechanger subschool powers. The master metamorph gains no additional benefits from the wizard’s arcane school ability, nor does he select any opposition schools. This ability replaces brew potion, throw anything, and poison resistance.
Battleshaping (Su): At 1st level, as a swift action, the master metamorph grows a single natural weapon. The natural weapon lasts for 1 round and has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls for every four master metamorph levels he possesses. The master metamorph can grow a claw, a bite, or a gore attack. These attacks deal the normal damage for a creature of his size (see Beastiary). At 11th level, the master metamorph can shape two natural weapons. He may not grow additional limbs or a tail with this ability. The master metamorph can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Intelligence modifier.
Physical Enhancement (Su): At 1st level, a master metamorph gains a +1 enhancement bonus to one physical ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution). This bonus increases by +1 for every five master metamorph levels he possesses to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. The master metamorph can change this bonus to a new ability score when he prepares his extracts. At 20th level, this bonus applies to two physical ability scores of his choice.
Change Shape (Sp): At 8th level, a master metamorph can change his shape for a number of rounds per day equal to his master metamorph level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. This ability otherwise functions like beast shape II or elemental body I. At 12th level, this ability functions like beast shape III or elemental body II.
Discoveries: This is exactly like the alchemist ability of the same name, except that master metamorph cannot select bomb discoveries. In addition, whenever the master metamorph could choose a discovery, he can select one of the following arcane discoveries instead: alchemical affinity, beyond morality, feral speech, idealize, multimorph, werewolf shape. The master metamorph treats his level as his wizard level for the purpose of qualifying for arcane discoveries.
If the master metamorph chooses the multimorph or werewolf shape discovery, they affect his metamutagen as if it were a spell or extract. If using multimorph, the master metamorph must expend 10 minutes of the metamutagen’s duration as a standard action to assume another form allowed by the metamutagen.
Precise Metamorphosis (Su): At 3rd level, a master metamorph gains unique control over his shapechanging abilities and can use his metamutagens, transmutation extracts, or the a thousand faces ability to assume the form of specific individuals. This ability replaces poison use.
Spontaneous Extracts: At 6th level, a master metamorph can channel stored arcane energy into transmutation extracts that he hasn't prepared ahead of time. He can “lose” a prepared extract in order to create any transmutation extract of the same level or lower. This ability replaces swift poisoning.
A Thousand Faces (Su): At 13th level, a master metamorph gains the ability to change his appearance at will, as if using the alter self spell, but only while in his normal form. This ability and true shapechanger replace grand discovery.
True Shapechanger (Su): At 20th level, a master metamorph becomes a true master of shapechanging. He gains the shapechanger subtype and becomes proficient with any natural weapon or manufactured weapon that his current assumed form can use. Also, when the master metamorph uses his metamutagen, he radiates an aura identical to the alignment of the assumed creature. His actual alignment is not changed, but spells like detect evil or detect good detect only the aura, not his actual alignment. For the duration of the metamutagen, effects influenced by his alignment function according to the imposed aura, not his actual aura. When the metamutagen ends, the master metamorph’s aura returns to normal, and alignment-affecting magic affects him according to its actual alignment. For example, if he takes the form of a glabrezu, he would be detected as having a chaotic evil alignment.
In addition, when the master metamorph imbibes a metamutagen, he gains all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the form he chooses, as described in the monster’s description. These abilities last as long as the metamutagen remains in effect.
Discoveries: The following discoveries complement the Master Metamorph multiclass archetype: chameleon, eternal potion, extend potion, infuse mutagen, feral mutagen, rag doll mutagen, tentacle, vestigial arm, wings.
Table: Master Metamorph
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Extracts per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +2 +2 +0 battleshaping, deceptive alchemy, metamutagen, 1 — — — — —
physical enhancement, trained metamorph
2nd +1 +3 +3 +0 Discovery, precise metamorphosis 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +3 +1 Metamutagen, swift alchemy 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +4 +1 Discovery 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +4 +4 +1 Metamutagen 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +5 +5 +2 Discovery, spontaneous extracts 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +5 +5 +2 Metamutagen 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +6 +2 Change shape, discovery 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +6 +3 Metamutagen 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +7 +3 Discovery 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +7 +3 Metamutagen 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +8 +4 Discovery 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +8 +4 A thousand faces, metamutagen 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +9 +9 +4 Discovery, persistent mutagen 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +9 +5 Metamutagen 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Discovery 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Metamutagen 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Discovery, instant alchemy 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Metamutagen 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 True shapechanger 5 5 5 5 5 5
The following new discoveries are restricted to the Master Metamorph multiclass archetype.
AMORAL ASPECT
You can use transmutations of an opposed alignment.
Prerequisites: Master Metamorph 8.
Benefits: You can use any transmutation extract with an alignment descriptor that opposed your own.
Normal: You cannot use extracs that have an alignment descriptor that is opposite to yours.
BATTLE MORPHING
You can change forms quickly during battle.
Prerequisites: Metamutagen class feature, Multimorph arcane discovery.
Benefits: When your metamutagen is in effect, you can change forms as a swift action instead of a standard action. The duration cost of this form change remains the same.
Normal: You can change between forms as a standard action.
It's OK for me, but the angelic aspect spell chain are not "new spells", they're from Champions of Purity. I created agathion appearance and devilish demeanor using that same template (and I hope to create one chain for every outsider race) ^_^
Oh yeah, I forgot you based those on that one. I'll change it in the master doc and wiki version.
Alright, Starfox, your Saint of Rogues is up! Annnnnd GO!
Master Metamorph is on the Wiki!
#Saint of Sinners
Whether or not what we experienced was an According to Hoyle miracle is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved. - Jules Winnfield, Pulp Fiction
The saint of sinners is a vision of vice. He might not even know who his patron is, but he is in touch with some higher being and this fills him with holy purpose. Or maybe it is a lower being and unholy purpose - that point is not at all clear, even to the saint of sinners himself.
Class Information
Primary Class: Rogue.
Secondary Class: Cleric.
The saint of sinners has all the rogue's class features except as noted here.
A saint of sinners cannot multiclass as a cleric, rogue or with any of their subclasses or combination classes.
Alignment: Any. Most saints of sinners think of themselves as good, but this is often just a self-indulgent illusion.
Class Abilities
A saint of sinners has all class abilities of the normal rogue, except as follows.
Class Skills
The saint of sinners may select three cleric skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The saint of sinners gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Saints of sinners are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the battle aspergillum<ref name="APG">From Advanced Player's Guide.</ref>, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword.
They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Channel Energy (Su)
Regardless of alignment, any saint of sinners can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.
Regardless of alignment, a saint of sinners can choose to channel either positive or negative energy at any time. Positive energy can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. Negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures.
There are thus four distinct ways the saint of sinners can channel energy:
* Positive energy to harm undead.
* Positive energy to heal living creatures
* Negative energy to heal undead
* Negative energy to harm living creatures
Objects and creatures which are neither living or undead, such as most constructs, are not affected by this ability.
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the saint of sinners. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two saint of sinners levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the saint of sinners's level + the saint of sinners's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channel energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A saint of sinners may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A saint of sinners can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect.
This and sneak channel replaces sneak attack.
Sneak Channel
When a saint of sinners hits an opponent whom he flanks or who is denied it's Dexterity bonus to armor class against her, she can channel energy into the attack. Sneak channel works with ranged attacks, but only to a range of 30 ft. If this hits a living or undead creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by the channel energy ability. The target can make a Will save, as normal, to halve this additional damage. If the attack misses, there is no effect.
This has no effect against creatures that are neither living or dead, such as constructs. The additional damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. It is not possible to heal a creature by using this ability. Sneak channel does not count against the daily uses of channel energy. Against improved uncanny dodge, this ability works the same way as sneak attack. This and channel energy replaces sneak attack.
Divine Disable (Su)
A saint of sinners can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Domain
A saint of sinners chooses one [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains domain] from the same list the cleric uses. A saint of sinners' domain influences what magic he can perform and how others see him. A saint of sinners can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.
Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the saint of sinners, as well as a number of bonus spells. Bonus spells are added to the saint of sinners' spell list at level one and to and known spells as soon as he can cast them.
A saint of sinners gains the listed powers from him domain, if he is of a high enough level. Saint of sinner levels count as cleric levels for domain powers. Unless otherwise noted, activating a domain power is a standard action.
Spells
A saint of sinners casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell list. She can cast any spell she knows at any time without preparing it ahead of time, assuming she has not yet used up her allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level. A saint of sinners only casts spells up to level 4, cleric spells of level 5 and up are not on the saint of sinner's spell list.
To learn or cast a spell, a saint of sinners must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a saint of sinners’ spell is 10 + the spell level + the saint of sinners’ Charisma modifier.
A saint of sinners can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level each day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Saint of Sinners. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A saint of sinners’ selection of spells is extremely limited. At level 4, a saint of sinners learns two 1st-level spells of the saint of sinners’ choice. At each new saint of sinners level, she gains one or more new spells as indicated on Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a saint of sinners knows is not affected by her Charisma score. The numbers on Table: Saint of Sinners are fixed.)
Upon reaching 7th level, and at every third saint of sinners level thereafter (10th, 13th, and so on), a saint of sinners can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the saint of sinners “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. Even orisons can be exchanged this way. The saint of sinners may swap out only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.
This replaces the trap sense.
Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known
Level Spells Known
Zero 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st 3 — — — —
2nd 4 — — — —
3rd 5 — — — —
4th 5 2 — — —
5th 5 3 — — —
6th 6 4 — — —
7th 6 4 2 — —
8th 6 4 3 — —
9th 6 5 4 — —
10th 6 5 4 2 —
11th 6 5 4 3 —
12th 6 6 5 4 —
13th 6 6 5 4 2
14th 6 6 5 4 3
15th 6 6 6 5 4
16th 6 6 6 5 4
17th 6 6 6 5 4
18th 6 6 6 6 5
19th 6 6 6 6 5
20th 6 6 6 6 5
Orisons
Saints of sinners learn a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Thief's Prayer (Ex)
The the saint of sinner's spells do not break Stealth. He can use material components, foci, gestures, and speech quietly and discreetly to cast spells while in Stealth. All other restrictions on using components still apply. The effect of a spell still attracts attention as normal, and casting an attack spell means the saint of sinners is automatically spotted.
Invocations (Su)
A saint of sinners learns various invocations. These are alternate ways to channel energy, and replaces the normal effect of that ability by causing an effect in the area around the saint of sinners. Each use of an invocation uses one of the saint of sinner's daily uses of channel energy. Unless otherwise stated, an invocation affects the area within 30 ft. of the saint of sinners, moves along with him, and has a duration of one minute for each die of damage the channeling would normally do. Invocations are subtle, there is no flashy side effect to give away that they are being used.
Invocations are learned as rogue talents that only the saint of sinner can use.
Invocation of Distraction: The saint of sinners distracts allows him and all allies in the area to use Stealth to hide in as if they had concealment and a distraction to hide, and they all get an immediate free Stealth roll to hide. The Stealth roll is an immediate action and the concealment only lasts for one round.
Invocation of Revelation: The saint of sinners can clearly see in the area covered by his channel regardless of light level, and gains a bonus on Perception checks against anything in this area equal to the number of dice of damage his channeling would normally do.
Invocation of Shadow: Lighting in the area around the saint of sinners becomes subtly fuzzy. Creatures can use Stealth to hide in the area as if they had concealment. If the saint of sinners moves away from a hidden creature, that creature retains the advantage of this invocation until the end of it's next turn - it must end it's turn in regular cover or concealment if it wishes to remain hiding.
Invocation of the Gang: As long as they move together as a group, the saint of sinners and a group of companion who must all remain within the area of channeling can use Stealth together, and only the saint of sinners need to make a Stealth check, which is then applied to each member of the group. To use this invocation in combat, the saint of sinners and any companions that are to benefit from it must delay actions so that they all act on the same initiative.
Master Sneak Channel (Su)
Upon reaching 20th level, a saint of sinners becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak channel damage. Each time the saint of sinners deals sneak channel damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:
The target can be...
* put to sleep for 1d4 hours
* paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
* slain
Regardless of the effect chosen, a target that passes its Will save negates the additional effect. Once a creature has been the target of a master sneak channel, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that saint of sinners' master sneak channel for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to channel energy damage are also immune to this ability. This replaces master strike.
Table: Saint of Sinners
Class
Level Base Attack
Bonus Fort
Save Ref
Save Will
Save Special Spells per Day
1 2 3 4
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Channel energy 1d6, divine disable, domain, orison, sneak channel, thief's prayer — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, orison, rogue talent — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Channel energy 2d6 — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Orison, rogue talent, uncanny dodge 0 — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Channel energy 3d6 1 — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Rogue talent 1 — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Channel energy 4d6 1 0 — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent 1 1 — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Channel energy 5d6 2 1 — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent 2 1 0 —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Channel energy 6d6 2 1 1 —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Rogue talent 2 2 1 —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Channel energy 7d6, orison 3 2 1 0
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Rogue talent 3 2 1 1
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Channel energy 8d6 3 2 2 1
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Rogue talent 3 3 2 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Channel energy 9d6 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Rogue talent 4 3 2 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Channel energy 10d6 4 3 3 2
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master sneak channel, rogue talent 4 4 3 3
Summary of Changed Class Abilities
These abilities of the original class are lost or modified in this archetype:
* Class Skills
* Skill Points Per Level
* Weapon Proficiency
* Sneak Attack
* Trapfinding
* Trap Sense
* Master Strike
Notice now that all the abilities described here are gained at 2nd level at the latest except the one gained at 20th level. Aw well, the rest is the normal rogue.
Starting 1st level spell casting capping at 4th feels weird to me, we sure we cant do 6th on this one? Also, is focused sniper on the wiki? My phone hates the website.
Starting 1st level spell casting capping at 4th feels weird to me, we sure we cant do 6th on this one? Also, is focused sniper on the wiki? My phone hates the website.
Adding cantrips/orisons to a 4 spell level class adds a lot of utility. I've done it a lot lately, among others on the Spellsword, my last MCA. For the saint of sinners, that utility might actually be worth just as much as the spells themselves - I could see removing all spells BUT the cantrips. Sure it go to 6 levels of spells, but I think there's no design space for that. It is tight as it is. But I'll let Elghinn be the final judge of that.
At 1st glance it appears to have gained an awful lot and not lost much as balance. It only really seems to have lost trap finding and trap sense (sneak attack seems functionally identical, if not strictly better due to damage type although i really like the ability)
Does he really need the casting?
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot off additions for what is lost.
1) Half casting is equal to losing Evasion, Unc Dodge, and Imp Unc Dodge, or 3-4 Rogue Talents. That's a swap we've done in many rogue caster MCAs.
2) Divine Disable = I dont see the point, as Trapfinding does this plus what it normally does.
3) What is the point of Thief's Prayer? Does spellcasting actually break Stealth? I don't think it does, so I think this still leaves Trap Sense as an ability we can swap out.
4) Sneak Attack/Channel Energy swap = I think this MCA would do better to simply keep Sneak attack, and reduce it to 7d6, and reduce Rogue talents to 7 at 2/5/8/11/14/17/20. This gives us some more wiggle room.
5) Channel energy = I think we can give them something like Channeling Strike at 3rd - when making a successful sneak attack, she can choose to channel energy as a cleric equal to his sneak attack damage instead of sneak attack damage. Probably limited to either 3 + Wis modifier per day, or simply her Wis modifier per day. This keeps the limiting factor of sneak attack to flat-footed, but them limits its use to Wis md per day. Swap this in for sneak attack 2d6.
Also, the capacity to simply channel positive or negative energy is not balanced. You need a limiting factor, such as having to choose at the begining of each day what to channel. So Versatile Channeling replaces sneak attack 5d6, and allows her to choose whether she's going to channel positie of negative energy each day.
6) Domain = swapped for 3 talents
7) Invocations = Becomes a new Talent with a Clr level prereq (likely level 2, 3, or 4?). As always, any MCA (unless otherwise noted) counts its level as both classes (primary/Secondary) for the purpose of class features.
8) Master Strike can remain the same.
9) For the remaining sneak attack 8d6, I think we could give it the spellstrike ability from the magus. Or something else more fitting to this MCA.
SWAPS
Sneak attack 2d6 = Channeling strike
Evasion, Unc Dodge, Imp Unc Dodge = Half casting
Talents (4/12/20) = Domain
Trap sense = ???
Sneak attack 5d6 = Versatile channeling
Sneak attack 8d6 = Spellstrike (???)
EDIT: Then we also allow Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Uncanny Dodge to be chosen as Advanced Talents.
Well i belive detect traps is a cleric spell, and spellstrike plus channel seems kinda heavy. How about doing versatile channeling as a talent and trading out trap sense and the 5 and 8 sneak attacks to bump up the spellcasting to 6th?
How about this?
SWAPS
Talent (4) = Channeling strike (@ 2nd)
Evasion, Unc Dodge, Imp Unc Dodge, Sneak attack 2d6/5d6/8d6 = 3/4 casting
Talents (2/10/20) = Domain
Trap sense = Effortless deception
Effortless Deception (Ex): At 3rd level, a saint of sinners gains a +1 morale bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and on saving throws against compulsion spells or effects that prevent her from deliberately telling a lie (such as zone of truth). This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 levels beyond 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.
NEW TALENTS
Versatile channeling
Invocations
Now all this is contigent on Starfox wanting a 3/4 caster of course. Otherwise we'll do some revamping for a 1/2 caster version. Also, Starfox, are you wanting this to be a spontaneous caster like in your original post? Clercs aren't after all. Just curious why you want a spontaneous caster?
I wanted this up as quick as possible, spurred on by Elghinn, so I didn't take the time to check it up closely or write the accompanying presentation. THis is thus mainly the presentation.
This is not a cleric/rogue version of the Magus that combines spellcasting and thievery onto a unified whole. This is a rogue with the ability to support rogues and take part in their capers. (A normal cleric is just about the worst class ever when it comes to stealth.) Thus it has the cleric spell list, not the inquisitor one. But it is not quite as good as a true rogue at what a rogue does, hence no trapfinding, trap sense, less skill points/level and no funky skill bonuses.
Spontaneous casting comes from its lack of clerical training; this is not an educated class, it is a rogue with an epiphany. The channeling mechanic makes it a rogue/cleric rather than a rogue/oracle which it could also have been. It is closer to the oracle in that it is a spontaneous caster and in that it does not need a patron or have any alignment restrictions of any kind. In fact, most saints of sinners don't know what alignment they are and certainly do not champion an alignment, as alleged to in the alignment section.
The point of this class is the whole-cloth swap of sneak attack to sneak channel - a similar ability but divinely motivated. Like sneak attack, there's no daily limit on sneak channel, but like Channel Smite it offers a saving throw for half damage. The reason saints of sinners can channel all types of energy is the above-mentioned lack of alignment focus and that they'd otherwise be too restricted in their choice of sneak channel targets - saints of sinners channeling positive energy would not work well at all. The reason they can sneak channel any number of times is that otherwise it would be too big a step down from regular sneak atatck. The "normal" use of channel energy is more or less a side effect of sneak channel, but is also flavor material and powers invocations. If the versatile channeling is felt to be excessive, the MCA could lose the ability to heal with channeling altogether, instead using channel just to harm and for invocations. I could also see the MCA getting Channel Smite as a bonus feat, effectively making it able to use sneak channel a few times per day even when not qualifying for a sneak attack.
The invocations are the unique ability of the saint of sinners, giving the MCA its own thing.
Again, I and Elghinn differ a bit in our approach. Elghin wants to put a bit of sneak attack into the mix, which is truer to the idea of a multiclass, but dilutes the concept behind the saint of sinners. Sneak channel is the hub this MCA revolves around, without it the concept fails.
2) Divine Disable = I dont see the point, as Trapfinding does this plus what it normally does.
Didn't I swap out trapfinding? Its been a while since I looked at this closely. Checked. I did, even if I didn't mention it as a specific swap, it is listed in what I swapped out at the end and it is not on Table: Saint of Sinners.
3) What is the point of Thief's Prayer? Does spellcasting actually break Stealth? I don't think it does, so I think this still leaves Trap Sense as an ability we can swap out.
Verbal components most certainly break stealth. Some might argue that somatic components do too.
4) Sneak Attack/Channel Energy swap = I think this MCA would do better to simply keep Sneak attack, and reduce it to 7d6, and reduce Rogue talents to 7 at 2/5/8/11/14/17/20. This gives us some more wiggle room.
5) Channel energy = I think we can give them something like Channeling Strike at 3rd - when making a successful sneak attack, she can choose to channel energy as a cleric equal to his sneak attack damage instead of sneak attack damage. Probably limited to either 3 + Wis modifier per day, or simply her Wis modifier per day. This keeps the limiting factor of sneak attack to flat-footed, but them limits its use to Wis md per day. Swap this in for sneak attack 2d6.
As I said above, Sneak Channel is the core of the MCA. Sorry, but changing that around makes this a new MCA, which would make me withdraw the concept.
Going from rant mode into trying to be constructive about what directions this could go:
A) A six-level casting (+ orisons) version of this could have sneak channel that counts against the daily limit of channel energy. This is a huge downgrade from sneak attack, so no other changes would be needed IMO and perhaps something else could we swapped back in, like trapfinding. Not too fond of this idea.
B) Perhaps we could find some other way to make this a 3/4 caster. Maybe give up another 2 skill points?
C) Thieves Prayer should be rewritten to more explicitly cover verbal components.
D) It could lose some class skills to accompany the loss of 2 skill points. I could see it losing Use Magic Device (the focus on divine magic precludes the use of other magic) and I guess 2-3 more skills. This is not usually how we do things.
E) Channel Energy could be altered so that it hurts both the living and undead but does not heal. Or it could be changed to normal positive/negative energy, with Sneak Channel having the ability to damage both living and undead. Not too fond of this. I don't feel the mix of positive and negative energy is a big thing, and it goes well with the lack of alignment restriction.
F) Channel Smite could become a rogue talent for this MCA. Does not work well with (A) above, as this makes sneak channel redundant.
Swaps
You say the swaps are insufficient. The present swaps, and an evaluation of each, as I see them:
Channel Energy + Sneak Channel = Sneak Attack
(Sneak channel is worse offensively than sneak attack (save for half), but can heal and do point-blank damage. The later parts have limits/day.
Trapfinding + Trap Sense +2 skill points/level = 5 levels of spells + Thieves Prayer + Divine Disable
(Divine disable is but a small remnant of trapfinding, so this is a +10 bonus on Disable device and Perception vs traps and +6 Trap Sense vs 5 levels of spells. The 5 levels of spells include orisons.)
Breaking this down to
Trapfinding = 2 levels of spells
Trap Sense = 2 levels of spells
1 skill point/Level = 1 level of spells (orisons)
1 skill point/Level = Thieves Prayer + Divine Disable
Master Sneak Channel = Master Strike
(Same thing, but with a Will save instead of Fort)
Well if we are being honest trapfinding is not worth 2 levels of spells, but since its the rogue a liitle leeway could work. Where do you want this to differentiate from say the inquisitor, who is of a similar role?
I believe both Trapfinding and Trap Sense are supposed to be quite powerful abilities, how else could anyone think the rogue balanced against classes like the ranger? D&D and by extension Pathfinder are written for a dungeon environment where traps are common and lethal. Taking the rogue out of the dungeon degrades these two abilities a lot, but for swaps I feel they are to be considered valuable. Paizo does not hold this out in their archetypes, tough, often trading them for very little.
The inquisitor is a up-front warrior with some stealth and a huge intimidation. They have self-buffs. The Saint of Sinners is sneaky, both in combat and out of combat, and is a party buffer.
@Starfox - given the popular perception that Rogues are not balanced and the current move away from traps completely and the prevalence of non-dungeon adventures, I think you'll find folks don't think trapfinding/trapstuff at all useful.
I tend to agree - without a trap environment they are as useful as a Ranger outside his favored terrain and their abilities are not at all close to the versatility of spellcasting...
Afraid I agree with you on how things are (note the italics on "supposed". I am basing my swaps on how I feel these abilities are supposed to be. That way, tough the base rogue is weak, at least is is possible to make decent variant rogues.
By the book, an ability that gives an unconditional +10 bonus on one skill and a conditional +10 bonus on another skill (at lvl 20) is great. And a stacking but conditional +6 on AC and Reflex saves is great too. The only trouble is that the condition (traps) are too rare. This creates a vicious circle; because few people play rogues, excessive traps in an adventure would ruin the fun for parties without rogues, which means there are not enough traps to make the rogue worthwhile. This, and the very unclear Stealth rules, is what ruins the rogue IMO. On paper, the rogue is a great class.
Actually a ranger has full bab, combat feats without prereqs, and an animal companion.
Also this is a trait now. Traps i use alot, but i am well aware they are more an inconvenience than an actual threat once characters start leveling up. also this aggravates the issue.
Another route of development: Reduce channel energy to 7d6 (1d6 at 1st +1d6/3 levels), but remove the saving throw to halve damage on sneak channel. Either remove the option to sneak channel with channeling feats, or note that channeling feats and master sneak channel allow a save against the extra effect, but not to halve damage. This is basically the same damage-wise, but simplifies sneak channel and reduces the strength of normal channeling.
#Saint of Sinners
This actually grows on me. I can see from your "rant" post Starfox that there is a great deal of inspiration and thought that has gone into the concept.
* Saint of Sinners feels clunky as a name. How about Rogue Saint? As in a Saint that has gone "rogue" (outcast, oathbreaker, feral), not Rogue the RPG class. As in rogue trader etc etc...
* I like Sneak Channel as a mechanic, though currently does it still allow four types of channel to choose from? I haven't followed all of Elghinn's changes/Starfox' counterchanges...
* Hooley dooley, with that Trapfinding trait from Mummy's Mask I have no problem with the SoS getting Disable Device stuff.
@Starfox - I totally get where you are coming from with the vicious cycle, and there are plenty of counters to the "rogues suck" brigade, notably from people who happily and successfully play rogues in game, not just theorycrafted on paper.
If channeled sneak is that important i say keep it in but lose the heal element. Lose the spells but keep orisons but add some talents similar to minor magic etc but for some key cleric spells. Swap maybe uncanny dodge for some kind of improved bonus to will saves (maybe slippery mind) and keep evasion. Medium armor seems good trade for increased weapon proficiencies. Trap finding and trap sense seem ok for domains (now without bonus spells) but make a short list of appropriate domains (trickery seems like a shoe in here)
I think we can keep 8+ skills for this one to keep it feeling like a rogue/cleric instead of a cleric/rogue
I think some custom rogue talents are key here.
@Saint of Sinners
Now that you've given your more indepth description of what this guy is supposed to be, I have no problems going back to your original version and work from there. One of the problems with these threads is many of us are around the world, and soemtimes comments/rebuttals don't come until a 1/2 day or even full day later. For me communication is the key, but we also need to try to work within the mechanics and rules frameworks of the PAthfinder system as best as we can.
I often look at the rogue and wonder why its considered the worst of the classes. I totally see Satarfox's point that really, trapfinding and trap sense should be considered better than they seem to be and should be worth a bit more than they normally are, but, sa we know, they arent. :(
So, let's start back with your original concept.
1) Are you wanting 1/2 caster or 3/4 caster? From what it sounds like, you really aren't looking for a 3/4 caster.
2) In either case, I think a reduction to max 7d6 for channel energy and 7 rogue talents gives us some more room to make this what Starfox wants it to be.
3) For Channel Energy, as I now see what you are wanting to do here, I think we can do waht yo did and replace sneak attack with channel energy outright (3 + Wis mod) up to 7d6. Then they can expend a use to deal divine "precision" damage (Sneak Channel) to a single opponent when flat-footed or flanked, etc. without the save, as it is targeting a single opponent. Maybe even do something to improve it a bit? Say, when using channel energy in this way (targeting a single creture), it deals damage as a cleric of equal level (max 10d6 at 19th). As the ability is a limited use, perhaps the choice to sneak channel someone should be worth the cost benefits? Still gives a sneak attack feel, but its divine damage. This allows the possibility of "snaek attacking" even undead through this method.
4) Thief's Prayer: If Stealth is toast with spells with verbals then this is indeed something she would want.
5) Able to channel opposite energies from your deity or alignment could be included as part of the sneak attack/channel energy swap, as sneak attack is an all day every day ability (and if used right is nasty), and channel energy is alimited resource. However, it should not be channel "whatever energy whenever", the choice should be made at the start of the day when regaining spells.
6)I do like OSW's suggestion on the name. Saint of Sinners is clunky, and Rogue Saint does fit the concept. Thoughts?
7) Skills: we can go either 6 + Int or 8 + Int, depending on the flavor and build.
8) Starfox said "Another route of development: Reduce channel energy to 7d6 (1d6 at 1st +1d6/3 levels), but remove the saving throw to halve damage on sneak channel. Either remove the option to sneak channel with channeling feats, or note that channeling feats and master sneak channel allow a save against the extra effect, but not to halve damage. This is basically the same damage-wise, but simplifies sneak channel and reduces the strength of normal channeling."
I think we can allow certain channel feat to function with sneak channel, such as the ALignment Channel feat, allowing her to target aligned outsiders. Otherwise, the sneak channel affects either "lining" or undead" creatures, depending upo the choice made in the morning.
9) Possibly, as Ape suggested, we could go with Domains without domain spells? That would allow for the choice of appropriate inquisitions for the MCA also. Maybe gve a list of Domains and Inquisitions, choosable regardless of deity's alignment, as this is a "Rogue" Saint.
Let's go from here first, then we can look into how to balance everything. Plus, we need some answers from Starfox on these before we can move forward.
@ Oceanshieldwolf
Its funny about the name, this is descended from the Rogue Cleric, a cleric/rouge and my first contribution to MCA, which failed.
@ Apraham Lincoln
Removing the heal angle could create some design space, going partway towards making this a 3/4 caster.
Would shifting focus from rogue/cleric to cleric/rogue make any difference? I feel like its a cleric who can roll with the rogues rather than a rogue with some cleric tricks.
@ Oceanshieldwolf
Its funny about the name, this is descended from the Rogue Cleric, a cleric/rouge and my first contribution to MCA, which failed.
Well, does Rogue Saint work for you?
Well if we are being honest trapfinding is not worth 2 levels of spells, but since its the rogue a liitle leeway could work. Where do you want this to differentiate from say the inquisitor, who is of a similar role?
I forgot toreference Christos' post in my feedback. The point about Inquisitors is very interesting - I could totally see a rogue saint as an Inquisitor archetype that dropped the monster lore/bane/slayer stuff for more rogue tricks/social buffs. Not that I'm advocating changing Starfox design at all - I was merely highlighting what is for me the beauty of the MCA concept...
It does point out to me the value of Inquisitions for the Saint of Sinners however...
Yes, perhaps a Clr/Rog build might work better but that's up to Starfox. Rog/Clr seems though.
Reading from the last post back, this is the first thing I feel a need to reply to. This is a bit stream-of-consciousness.
Yes, perhaps a Clr/Rog build might work better but that's up to Starfox. Rog/Clr seems though.
This is a development of the cleric/rouge rogue cleric that you felt was too much of a cleric, Elghinn. It had sneak channel too, but lacked the dual channel option.
Is your point that since the cleric is such a powerful class, there's be more design space to work on this as a cleric variant? I'll try to do the swaps to saint of sinners from cleric instead of rogue. I'm giving up medium armor, shield, 5 levels of spells (making it a 4 levels +cantrips level caster), one good save, and one domain. I'm gaining 4 skill points/level (making them 6), sneak channel, Thief's Prayer, 10 rogue talents (to use with invocations), evasion, uncanny dodge, and master sneak channel. Doable, depending on how highly you value the domain.
4 spell levels - 4 skill points
domain - 6 rogue talents (because the saint gains no domain spell slots)
1 spell level - sneak channel
armor - master sneak channel
shield - evasion
1 good save - uncanny dodge, thief's prayer
The question this raises in me is about the domain. The domain is clearly worth more to a cleric (who gains 9 spells from it) than to the saint of sinners. On the other hand a spontaneous caster loves extra spells known. I generally regard a domain as being worth 3 "things" (2 abilities, extra spells) with the first domain being worth extra because of the domain spell slots. Its hard to evaluate it for someone like the saint of sinners, that get a lot less spells and no spell slots. Perhaps the best way to go is to eliminate the domain from the saint. Still, it IS a nice way to give flavor to a divine character.
I'll get back with a version of the original saint that might be more palatable.
This allows the possibility of "snaek attacking" even undead through this method.
Sneak attack works against undead in Pathfinder. Precision damage has its own mechanic, and only targets specifically immune to precision damage/sneak attack are immune, not all creatures immune to critical hits. Also, undead in Pathfinder are subject to critical hits unless they are incorporeal.
Here is a new version of the saint', with minimum changes to satisfy criticism. It lost its domain. It can no longer heal with channel energy, instead harming living AND undead. Hopefully this alleviates flexibility concerns. Its main use is now to fuel invocations, but it could be useful if you add feats to it, mainly Selective Channel.
About spellcasting, I am happy with the current level 0-4 spells, but I could trade 2 more skill points for level 0-6 spells if there is a consensus about this.
Hm, only now noticed this has 2 good saves. That was actually unintended, but fits the concept. I feel some of the swaps below are now quite tame (orisons-skill point and sneak channel-skill point) I feel strong Will can stay. I could see trading 3 dice of channel energy for no save on Sneak Channel and good Will save.
About the name, I like Saint of Sinners. It has a nice association to the great great film "god of gamblers". I don't find it more of a tongue-twister than, say, Master Metamorp or Infused Hematologist. To me, Rogue Cleric is still the name of the cleric/rogue I wrote before this. Saint of Sin or Sin Saint might be workable shortenings of saint of sinners, but I don't really feel its needed. 'Wolf's Rogue Saint is not all bad either. I am still open to suggestions.
# Saint of Sinners
Whether or not what we experienced was an According to Hoyle miracle is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved. - Jules Winnfield, Pulp Fiction
The saint of sinners is a vision of vice. He might not even know who his patron is, but he is in touch with some higher being and this fills him with holy purpose. Or maybe it is a lower being and unholy purpose - that point is not at all clear, even to the saint of sinners himself.
Table: Saint of Sinners
Class
Level Base Attack
Bonus Fort
Save Ref
Save Will
Save Special Spells per Day
1 2 3 4
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Channel energy 1d6, divine disable, orison, sneak channel, thief's prayer — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, orison, rogue talent — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Channel energy 2d6 — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Orison, rogue talent, uncanny dodge 0 — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Channel energy 3d6 1 — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Rogue talent 1 — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Channel energy 4d6 1 0 — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent 1 1 — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Channel energy 5d6 2 1 — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent 2 1 0 —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Channel energy 6d6 2 1 1 —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Rogue talent 2 2 1 —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Channel energy 7d6, orison 3 2 1 0
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Rogue talent 3 2 1 1
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Channel energy 8d6 3 2 2 1
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Rogue talent 3 3 2 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Channel energy 9d6 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Rogue talent 4 3 2 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Channel energy 10d6 4 3 3 2
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master sneak channel, rogue talent 4 4 3 3
Class Information
Primary Class: Rogue.
Secondary Class: Cleric.
The saint of sinners has all the rogue's class features except as noted here.
A saint of sinners cannot multiclass as a cleric, rogue or with any of their subclasses or combination classes.
Alignment: Any. Most saints of sinners think of themselves as good, but this is often just a self-indulgent illusion.
Class Abilities
A saint of sinners has all class abilities of the normal rogue, except as follows.
Class Skills
The saint of sinners may select three cleric skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The saint of sinners gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Saints of sinners are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the battle aspergillum<ref name"APG">From Advanced Player's Guide.</ref>, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword.
They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Channel Energy (Su)
Regardless of alignment, any saint of sinners can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This is a mix of energies energy that can be used to harm both undead and living creatures. Objects and creatures which are neither living or undead, such as most constructs, are not affected by this ability.
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures in a 30-foot radius centered on the saint of sinners. The amount of damage dealt is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two saint of sinners levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the saint of sinners's level + the saint of sinners's Charisma modifier. A saint of sinners may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A saint of sinners can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect.
This replaces sneak attack.
Sneak Channel
When a saint of sinners hits an opponent whom he flanks or who is denied it's Dexterity bonus to armor class against her, she can channel energy into the attack. Sneak channel works with ranged attacks, but only to a range of 30 ft. If this hits a living or undead creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by the channel energy ability. The target can make a Will save, as normal, to halve this additional damage. If the attack misses, there is no effect.
This has no effect against creatures that are neither living or dead, such as constructs. The additional damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. Using sneak channel is a free action that can be done with each attack and does not count against the daily uses of channel energy. Against improved uncanny dodge, this ability works the same way as sneak attack. This replaces one skill point/level.
Divine Disable (Su)
A saint of sinners can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Spells
A saint of sinners casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell list. She can cast any spell she knows at any time without preparing it ahead of time, assuming she has not yet used up her allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level. A saint of sinners only casts spells up to level 4, cleric spells of level 5 and up are not on the saint of sinner's spell list.
To learn or cast a spell, a saint of sinners must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a saint of sinners’ spell is 10 + the spell level + the saint of sinners’ Charisma modifier.
A saint of sinners can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level each day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Saint of Sinners. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A saint of sinners’ selection of spells is extremely limited. At level 4, a saint of sinners learns two 1st-level spells of the saint of sinners’ choice. At each new saint of sinners level, she gains one or more new spells as indicated on Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a saint of sinners knows is not affected by her Charisma score. The numbers on Table: Saint of Sinners are fixed.)
Upon reaching 7th level, and at every third saint of sinners level thereafter (10th, 13th, and so on), a saint of sinners can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the saint of sinners “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. Even orisons can be exchanged this way. The saint of sinners may swap out only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.
This replaces trapfinding and trap sense, and one skill point per level.
Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known
Level Spells Known
Zero 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st 3 — — — —
2nd 4 — — — —
3rd 5 — — — —
4th 5 2 — — —
5th 5 3 — — —
6th 6 4 — — —
7th 6 4 2 — —
8th 6 4 3 — —
9th 6 5 4 — —
10th 6 5 4 2 —
11th 6 5 4 3 —
12th 6 6 5 4 —
13th 6 6 5 4 2
14th 6 6 5 4 3
15th 6 6 6 5 4
16th 6 6 6 5 4
17th 6 6 6 5 4
18th 6 6 6 6 5
19th 6 6 6 6 5
20th 6 6 6 6 5
Orisons
Saints of sinners learn a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Saint of Sinners Spells Known. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Thief's Prayer (Ex)
The the saint of sinner's spells do not break Stealth. He can use material components, foci, gestures, and speech quietly and discreetly to cast spells while in Stealth. All other restrictions on using components still apply. The effect of a spell still attracts attention as normal, and casting an attack spell means the saint of sinners is automatically spotted.
Invocations (Su)
A saint of sinners can learn invocations. These are alternate ways to channel energy, and replaces the normal effect of channel energy with an effect in the area around the saint of sinners. Each use of an invocation uses one of the saint of sinner's daily uses of channel energy. Unless otherwise stated, an invocation affects the area within 30 ft. of the saint of sinners, moves along with him, and has a duration of one minute for each die of damage the channeling would normally do. Invocations are subtle, there is no flashy side effect to give away that they are being used.
Invocations are learned as rogue talents that only the saint of sinner can use.
Invocation of Distraction: The saint of sinners distracts allows him and all allies in the area to use Stealth to hide in as if they had concealment and a distraction to hide, and they all get an immediate free Stealth roll to hide. The Stealth roll is an immediate action and the concealment only lasts for one round.
Invocation of Revelation: The saint of sinners can clearly see in the area covered by his channel regardless of light level, and gains a bonus on Perception checks against anything in this area equal to the number of dice of damage his channeling would normally do.
Invocation of Shadow: Lighting in the area around the saint of sinners becomes subtly fuzzy. Creatures can use Stealth to hide in the area as if they had concealment. If the saint of sinners moves away from a hidden creature, that creature retains the advantage of this invocation until the end of it's next turn - it must end it's turn in regular cover or concealment if it wishes to remain hiding.
Invocation of the Gang: As long as they move together as a group, the saint of sinners and a group of companion who must all remain within the area of channeling can use Stealth together, and only the saint of sinners need to make a Stealth check, which is then applied to each member of the group. To use this invocation in combat, the saint of sinners and any companions that are to benefit from it must delay actions so that they all act on the same initiative.
Master Sneak Channel (Su)
Upon reaching 20th level, a saint of sinners becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak channel damage. Each time the saint of sinners deals sneak channel damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:
The target can be...
* put to sleep for 1d4 hours
* paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
* slain
Regardless of the effect chosen, a target that passes its Will save negates the additional effect. Once a creature has been the target of a master sneak channel, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that saint of sinners' master sneak channel for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to channel energy damage are also immune to this ability. This replaces master strike.
Just noticed that the text on how zero daily spells work have been lost in there.
@ Saint of sinners
I quite like the name saint of sinners too so you have me there :)
I think only 2 good saves is best here, 3 is something i think only a monk mca should even consider having.
Still a lot of rogue talents but the casting is much restricted. As a thought, how many talents would a domain be worth? Given that its adding spells known as part of its domain spells? I think talents are my only tiny concern atm
*glances in* Oh, hey, a spellcasting MCA.
Don't just toss it the cleric list, though. And giving a half-caster Orisons is kind of off, IMHO. Hmmm...
Think about what exactly he should be doing, caster-wise. I mean, look at the ranger and paladin- their spell lists are very defined and focused on two or three things, not including a handful of utility effects.
*glances in* Oh, hey, a spellcasting MCA.
Don't just toss it the cleric list, though. And giving a half-caster Orisons is kind of off, IMHO. Hmmm...
Think about what exactly he should be doing, caster-wise. I mean, look at the ranger and paladin- their spell lists are very defined and focused on two or three things, not including a handful of utility effects.
If this was a focused class like the paladin or inquisitor, it would be easy to burrow one of their spell lists. But this is a general buffer. If I were to use a non-cleric spell list for it, I think the ranger would be closest, but the nature theme is off. I'll have to say that this is a multiclass in this regard - it has the spellcasting of an 8th level oracle, spread over 20 levels.
Is your point that since the cleric is such a powerful class, there's be more design space to work on this as a cleric variant? I'll try to do the swaps to saint of sinners from cleric instead of rogue. I'm giving up medium armor, shield, 5 levels of spells (making it a 4 levels +cantrips level caster), one good save, and one domain. I'm gaining 4 skill points/level (making them 6), sneak channel, Thief's Prayer, 10 rogue talents (to use with invocations), evasion, uncanny dodge, and master sneak channel. Doable, depending on how highly you value the domain.
Cleric is a powerful class, but I'm OK working from a Rog/Clr, its really up to you. An while many seem to down grade the rogue as a class, I think it's just fine, and have alway enjoyed playing one. So I'm fine going at this from a Rog/Clr approach. The toughest thing is deciding the worth of spells and spellcasting. As I said before, we've found (over the 3 1/2 years we've been doding this) that 1/2 casting is equal to a swap out of Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Uncanny dodge which are all day every day abilities (probably about equal to 4 talents, as they tend to be less potent than the three abilities listed). A 3/4 caster wold require probably two adiditional all day/every day abilities swapped out, or an additiona 3 talents/3-4 sneak attack progressions.
Here's my comments on your current version.
First, I still don't feel the total swaps are balanced. Full 10d6 channeling (even with the restrictions), 10 talents, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge...It's essentially better than a rogue, losing only trap sense and trapfining and gaining 1/2 spellcasting, orision, Divine Disable, and Thief's Prayer. I realize you've used a Cleric/Rogue approach, but this build shouldn't obsolete the rogue.
I know there have been many times in the past that I wanted so much to have my concept realized that I'd forego a balance of the MCA, in reference to both the primary and secondary classes. That's something that needs to be considered. While this may be somewhat balanced with a cleric, it far outshines the rogue. Not a good thing. That's something we don't want to do to any of the classes involved with the MCA creation provcess.
Here's my suggestions, using your Clr/Rog swap approach, though Is still think we could have done a good Rog/Clr approach.
I really wish you would include your swaps, as that is how we gage balance. They include it in every PF archetype, and we do in every MCA.
1) Sneak Attack = Channel energy + Sneak Channel: This is a fair swap, as there is the mass effect (30 ft.) but with a saving throw for 1/2 damage with limited use in place for a versatile single target ability. And then sneak channe provides a single target effect giving it the rogue feel.
I think I'd prefer a 7d6 max, and then allow sneak channel to deal the 10d6 max, on a single target. Why? No other cleric can effect undead and living simultaneously at 10d6. The removal of the healing effect (undead or living) gives room to allow the ability to affect undead and living simultaneously. However, I feel that reducing to 7d6 balances better with the over all MCA, and opens 3 increments for swaps. Then my suggested 10d6 damage is a balanced cost/benefit for spending one use of the ability to target a single target. Thus, target a mass, its less powerful, but target a single target, it's more potent. Gives the cleric feel of the channeled wave, but also allows for a single target strike, making it feel roguish. I think sneak channel should come later than 1st too, like at 3rd, minimum 2nd.
2) Rogue Talents: Fine. However, I think it could be reduced to 7 to give more swap room.
3) Divine Disable & Thief's Prayer: This could be worth Trapfinding, as Divine Disbale is only part of the Trapfinding ability, and Thief's Prayer grants the casting while in stealth with verbal compnents.
4) Spells: This is the one I have issue with. I think it could certainily use a specific spell list too, as Raider suggested.
For overall balance this is what I see as the fair swaps so far.
Sneak attack = Channel Energy (limited) + Sneak Channel
Rogue Talents = domains
Trapfinding = Divine Disable + Thief's prayer
These are fine. But gaining the half caster and orisons would require Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Improved uncanny Dodge. Then allow them to be chosen as Advanced talents, like in so many other MCAs. Also note, if you are doing spontaneous casting, then she should never have 0 on a 1/2 caster list, as she learns spells at 4th, but being unable to cast them is dumb. That's why the new Bloodrager have a 1 on the 0 position of the paladin/ranger 1/2 caster spell progression table.
So your current version would look like this.
1st Channel energy, divine disable, orisons, thief's prayer 1d6 - - - -
2nd Rogue talent, sneak channel - - - -
3rd Channel energy 2d6 - - - -
4th Rogue talent 1 - - -
5th Channel energy 3d6 1 - - -
6th Rogue talent 1 - - -
7th Channel energy 4d6 1 1 - -
8th Rogue talent 1 1 - - -
9th Channel energy 5d6 2 1 - -
10th Rogue talent 2 1 1 -
11th Channel energy 6d6 2 1 1 -
12th Rogue talent 2 2 1 -
13th Channel energy 7d6 3 2 1 1
14th Rogue talent 3 2 1 1
15th Channel energy 8d6 3 2 2 1
16th Rogue talent 3 3 2 1
17th Channel energy 9d6 4 3 2 1
18th Rogue talent 4 3 2 2
19th Channel energy 10d6 4 4 3 2
20th Master sneak channel, Rogue talent 4 4 3 3
I think this is fair and balanced version if you are wanting to keep d10 channeling and 10 rogue talents. However, I sense that we are going to have to agree to disagree on our individual MCA consruction processes.
I think from a Rogue/Cleric approach we started with, I think this is how it should end up. Though this still has some room for swaps with the 3 increments of Sneak attack damage dice and 1 rogue talent. (This includes 2 talents and trap sense for 1 domain). So we could still add to this one if we want.
Table: Saint of Sinners
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Channel energy 1d6, divine disable, domain, — — — —
orisons, thief’s prayer
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Rogue talent — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Sneak channel — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Channel energy 2d6 1+1 — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Rogue talent 1+1 — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 1+1 — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Channel energy 3d6 1+1 0+1 — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Rogue talent 1+1 1+1 — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 2+1 1+1 — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Channel energy 4d6 2+1 1+1 0+1 —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent 2+1 1+1 1+1 —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 2+1 2+1 1+1 —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Channel energy 5d6 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Rogue talent 3+1 2+1 1+1 1+1
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Channel energy 6d6 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Rogue talent 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 4+1 3+1 2+1 2+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Channel energy 7d6 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master sneak channel, rogue talent 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1
EDIT: I forgot, we were thinking of allowing Inquisitions at one point, so if that is the case, then forget the domain spells slots, he'd just gain the domain powers (or Inquisitions powers). If we go that way, there wuld need to be a list of allowable thematic inquisitions.
Table: Saint of Sinners
Looking at this, it looks very much like my last version, only you traded 3 rogue talents for a domain and uncanny dodge/improved ud/evasion for a strong Will save. Your table has domain spell slots; since this is a spontaneous caster that really doesn't apply (if it did, I feel 3 rogue talents would be too cheap for a domain).
As long as Sneak Channel get no save against the damage part (any riders still get a save) I am fine with 7d6 channeling. I prefer losing 3d6 channeling to trading away the dodge/improved ud/evasion set. I agree with your line that area channeling should be less important. Having to roll a save on every sneak channel seems anticlimactic (both attack roll and save) and slows down play. Going further down this line, I could add to Thief's Prayer that the saint of sinners version of "cause wounds" spells have no save, making them similar to sneak channel in that. You seem to think that thief's prayer is lacking now, this would give it something special but still be pretty weak.
I've thought some more on the spell list. As a spontaneous caster, every saint of sinners makes his own personal specialized spell list. I think this ought to suffice as a restriction. The cleric list contains many specialized spells to cure specific ailments, these are much less useful to a spontaneous caster. The only really troublesome spell I can see is hold person.
On the name issue, Saint of Rogues or possibly Rogue Saint could work.
Remaining questions:
Are you ok with Sneak Channel not using up daily uses of channel energy? You didn't mention that above.
Are you ok with sneak channel not having a save for half damage, assuming it instead does 7d6 damage tops?
3 rogue talents <-> Domain. Do we want this swap? Both are customization options, the talents for rogues, the domain for clerics. I am on the fence on this. In the end I feel it might be better not to do this swap.
Is it ok by you to trade away 3d6 channeling to keep the uncanny dodge/improved ud/evasion set? These three together are actually worth less than 3 rogue talents, because you can trade them back for rogue talents if so desired. I'd like to keep the uncanny dodge/improved ud/evasion set to enforce a "rogue feel".
Table: Saint of SinnersLooking at this, it looks very much like my last version, only you traded 3 rogue talents for a domain and uncanny dodge/improved ud/evasion for a strong Will save. Your table has domain spell slots; since this is a spontaneous caster that really doesn't apply (if it did, I feel 3 rogue talents would be too cheap for a domain).
As long as Sneak Channel get no save against the damage part (any riders still get a save) I am fine with 7d6 channeling. I prefer losing 3d6 channeling to trading away the dodge/improved ud/evasion set. I agree with your line that area channeling should be less important. Having to roll a save on every sneak channel seems anticlimactic (both attack roll and save) and slows down play. Going further down this line, I could add to Thief's Prayer that the saint of sinners version of "cause wounds" spells have no save, making them similar to sneak channel in that. You seem to think that thief's prayer is lacking now, this would give it something special but still be pretty weak.
I've thought some more on the spell list. As a spontaneous caster, every saint of sinners makes his own personal specialized spell list. I think this ought to suffice as a restriction. The cleric list contains many specialized spells to cure specific ailments, these are much less useful to a spontaneous caster. The only really troublesome spell I can see is hold person.
On the name issue, Saint of Rogues or possibly Rogue Saint could work.
Remaining questions:
Are you ok with Sneak Channel not using up daily uses of channel energy? You didn't mention that above.
Are you ok with sneak channel not having a save for half damage, assuming it instead does 7d6 damage tops?
3 rogue talents <-> Domain. Do we want this swap? Both are customization options, the talents for rogues, the domain for clerics. I am on the fence on this. In the end I feel it might be better not to do this swap.
Is it ok by you to trade away...
Actually, I traded Evasion/UncD/Imp UncD for the spellcasting. Yeah, if we are going no domain spells, then that's fine, and will allow for Inquisition choices too (specific ones only though).
For the spell list, I think we should construct a unique spell list for this one, one suited for its role and function.
@Questions
1) Sneak channel should still require a use of channel energy. This ties into #2.
2) With a reduction to 7d6, a use of sneak channel should cost a use of channel energy. However, as it now only targets a single target, it's damage should be equal to normal channel energy progression, and should NOT require a saving throw. Only the mass effect requires a save. Thus, if he chooses to use channel energy as a sneak channel, it should be worth the cost = no save, 10d6 max. I think also, we can allow channel energy, and sneak channel (aka sneak attack) subject to their related feats. So Channel energy feats affect this channel energy as normal, and any sneak attack feats should affect sneak channel too.
3) If you don't want to go domain, then that's fine, but I think domain/inquisition would be a nice touch, but whatever. If we went 7d6 channel energy (10d6 on sneak channels) and only 7 rogue talents, we can gain a domain/inquisition, and get all your Evasion/UncD/Imp UncD abilities.
So it'd look like this.
Sneak attack 3d6/6d6/9d6 = Domain/Inquisition
Rogue talents (3) = Half casting
I guess, looking at this, half casting is really worth 3 talents/feats or similar abilities, as you can get E/Unc/Imp Unc with 3 talents too, though, they are restricted to advanced talent.
Table: Saint of Sinners
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Channel energy 1d6, divine disable, domain, — — — —
orisons, thief’s prayer
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, rogue talent — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Sneak channel — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Channel energy 2d6, uncanny dodge 1 — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Rogue talent 1 — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 1 — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Channel energy 3d6 1 1 — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent 1 1 — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 2 1 — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Channel energy 4d6 2 1 1 —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent 2 1 1 —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 2 2 1 —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Channel energy 5d6 3 2 1 1
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Rogue talent 3 2 1 1
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 3 2 2 1
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Channel energy 6d6 3 3 2 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Rogue talent 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 4 3 2 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Channel energy 7d6 4 3 3 2
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master sneak channel, rogue talent 4 4 3 3
What does everyone else think? Domain or not? IF not, that's fine, but then we'll just add the talents back in and we'll have a strange progression table in anycase.
Something like this.
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Channel energy 1d6, divine disable, orison, thief's prayer — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, orison, rogue talent — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Channel energy 2d6, sneak channel — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Orison, rogue talent, uncanny dodge 1 — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 1 — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Rogue talent 1 — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Channel energy 3d6 1 1 — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent 1 1 — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Channel energy 4d6 2 1 — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Advanced talents, rogue talent 2 1 1 —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 2 1 1 —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Rogue talent 2 2 1 —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Channel energy 5d6, orison 3 2 1 1
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Rogue talent 3 2 1 1
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Channel energy 6d6 3 2 2 1
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Rogue talent 3 3 2 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Rogue talent 4 3 2 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Channel energy 7d6 4 3 3 2
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master sneak channel, rogue talent 4 4 3 3
If this was a focused class like the paladin or inquisitor, it would be easy to burrow one of their spell lists. But this is a general buffer. If I were to use a non-cleric spell list for it, I think the ranger would be closest, but the nature theme is off. I'll have to say that this is a multiclass in this regard - it has the spellcasting of an 8th level oracle, spread over 20 levels.
I meant as -examples- for creating a specific.
Also note, if you are doing spontaneous casting, then she should never have 0 on a 1/2 caster list, as she learns spells at 4th, but being unable to cast them is dumb. That's why the new Bloodrager have a 1 on the 0 position of the paladin/ranger 1/2 caster spell progression table.
There's actually some very good reasons for the 0-point, such as serving out a carrot for having a ranger with wisdom. Also, the Bloodrager has a 1 there for an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT reason- It's a SPONTANEOUS CASTER.
So let's not make the terrible, terrible mistake of jumping off a cliff with the 1-slot at 4th for a prepared one. Keep it at 0.
Edit: Also, reasoning based on an uncompleted class about which large discussions of balance and issues were derived -months- ago with no updates on the class since... See why maybe pointing at the ACG isn't a good idea right now? >:s
If this was a focused class like the paladin or inquisitor, it would be easy to burrow one of their spell lists. But this is a general buffer. If I were to use a non-cleric spell list for it, I think the ranger would be closest, but the nature theme is off. I'll have to say that this is a multiclass in this regard - it has the spellcasting of an 8th level oracle, spread over 20 levels.I meant as -examples- for creating a specific.
Also note, if you are doing spontaneous casting, then she should never have 0 on a 1/2 caster list, as she learns spells at 4th, but being unable to cast them is dumb. That's why the new Bloodrager have a 1 on the 0 position of the paladin/ranger 1/2 caster spell progression table.There's actually some very good reasons for the 0-point, such as serving out a carrot for having a ranger with wisdom. Also, the Bloodrager has a 1 there for an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT reason- It's a SPONTANEOUS CASTER.
So let's not make the terrible, terrible mistake of jumping off a cliff with the 1-slot at 4th for a prepared one. Keep it at 0.
Edit: Also, reasoning based on an uncompleted class about which large discussions of balance and issues were derived -months- ago with no updates on the class since... See why maybe pointing at the ACG isn't a good idea right now? >:s
That's what I said Raider, for Spontaneous casters, the "0" needs to be a "1", I never said it needed to be a 1 for paladins or rangers (prepares casters). That was not what I said.
As to your last point, ACG out or not, the point of a "1" in the "0" position for spontaneous casters is a sound one. One cannot learn a magic spell without first casting it. A prepared however, he was unable to learn one if he doesn't have the apporpriate score in his/her primary casting ability score.
- Ack, my apologizes, then. I just derped hard and didn't catch all of what you were saying.
No prob! Maybe you need to check in more often then. ;)
@Saint of Sinners
I really think this MCA would benefit from a specific spell list, a mix of good cleric spells, but others that perhaps aren't that would round it out and enhance the roguish aspect and allow it to perform its role well.
Raider, what do you think? Or a straight cleric list up to 4th good enough?
We've already got a cleric/rogue style spell list around, don't we? 99% sure I've already made one that would fit this.
If a shortened cleric spell list is needed, I guess if it's suitable the Antipaladin spell list could be used? It's practically the darker more combat-oriented version of the cleric/oracle list.
Though if not, working on a specific spell list shouldn't be too hard, or we could use the one @Raiderrpg suggested.
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Raider, what do you think? Or a straight cleric list up to 4th good enough?
For the record, if I ever, EVER answer yes to this question or another similar, assume I've been abducted by aliens, have brained my damage, and been murdered then replaced by a drooling clone.
'straight cleric list up to 4th', ha... >:P
Raider, what do you think? Or a straight cleric list up to 4th good enough?For the record, if I ever, EVER answer yes to this question or another similar, assume I've been abducted by aliens, have brained my damage, and been murdered then replaced by a drooling clone.
'straight cleric list up to 4th', ha... >:P
its ninja, not rogue, but Night Shroud by dusty boy had one, although it seems a bit sparse for this concept. will continue looking.
Also note, if you are doing spontaneous casting, then she should never have 0 on a 1/2 caster list, as she learns spells at 4th, but being unable to cast them is dumb. That's why the new Bloodrager have a 1 on the 0 position of the paladin/ranger 1/2 caster spell progression table.There's actually some very good reasons for the 0-point, such as serving out a carrot for having a ranger with wisdom. Also, the Bloodrager has a 1 there for an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT reason- It's a SPONTANEOUS CASTER.
So let's not make the terrible, terrible mistake of jumping off a cliff with the 1-slot at 4th for a prepared one. Keep it at 0.
Edit: Also, reasoning based on an uncompleted class about which large discussions of balance and issues were derived -months- ago with no updates on the class since... See why maybe pointing at the ACG isn't a good idea right now? >:s
I don't agree here. I feel a spontaneous caster can have 0 spells/day. It is aa magical potential, that only those talented enough can use. I feel the idea that spontaneous and prepared casters have different spells/day table is a bad one, and would have preferred if wizards and sorcerers used the same table - with the same option to extend that table. The 6 level casters all have the same spells/day (magus vs bard).
Raider, what do you think? Or a straight cleric list up to 4th good enough?For the record, if I ever, EVER answer yes to this question or another similar, assume I've been abducted by aliens, have brained my damage, and been murdered then replaced by a drooling clone.
'straight cleric list up to 4th', ha... >:P
I'm looking at the cleric list now, and there are very few spells there that seem out of reach for the sinner'. Sure, the cleric list is very diverse and has some oddities, but so is the rogue concept. As long as they're restricted to just a few spells known, I don't see a problem with having the list of spells you can select from be very wide.
Looking just at 1stlevel spells, of which there are just short of a hundred, the list of spells that I didn't like was: ironbeard, moment of greatness (which I feel is pointless for clerics too), restore corpse. That's it, out of a hundred spells. And who is to say a dwarf saint' should not ave ironbeard. Looking at 4th level spells, of which there are nearly as many, I didn't find one spell that felt wrong. The difference between a prepared divine caster, with access to the whole list, and a spontaneous one with only a few spells known is huge.
Another direction I could see this going is to prepare spells, but like other prepared divine spellcasters have access to a whole spell list. In this case, I could see a shorter list, probably the ranger list with some modifications. This should probably be Wis-based, which means the saint' would be more MAD.