|
I was curious since the Crossblooded/Wildblooded FAQ if it applied to combining the Kapenia Dancer and Hexcrafter Magus archetypes? The only overlap they have is both add additional magus arcana and wasn't sure if that counted as altering the feature? or it was more like adding options similar to the Qinggong monk?
|
|
Here you go. FAQ in question
I would assume that the Qinggong is the exception personally, but I could see arguments otherwise.
The Qinggong monk is the exception, since the archetype does not force any given change. It permits you to pick and choose which select abilities to change. If you have another archetype with it, you just can't change the abilities also altered by that archetype.
If you change/adjust/manipulate/limit/add to/etc. a class feature, such as magus arcana in this case, then the underlying class ability is altered. As such, since both alter the same feature, then they can not stack.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I'll throw in this bit of data:
"Bardic Performance" is a class feature of the bard. The bard class actually says "All of the following are class features of the bard" and then lists Weapon and Armor Proficiency, Spells, Bardic Knowledge, and Bardic Performance (the list continues). So "Bardic Performance" is a class feature, while individual performances are just subsets of that class feature.
I seem to recall it being determined that if one bard archetype replaced, say, Inspire Competence and another replaced, say, Countersong; the two archetypes could stack in spite of the fact that they both alter the "Bardic Performance" class feature.
How does that affect this topic?
I'll throw in this bit of data:
"Bardic Performance" is a class feature of the bard.
...
How does that affect this topic?
I believe Bardic Performance options are an exception. Bardic Performance method (like all the 'selfish' ones) would not be.
I say this because 1) they are very modular, and 2) they are individually replaced by archetypes. The archetypes themselves do not say "this modifies Bardic Performance, removing X, Y, and Z, and adding A, B, and C" (at least not most of them). They say "A replaces X, B replaces Y, C replaces Z".
Just as an example/explanation to the OP: perhaps the magus arcana that are added are not meant to be used together. For instance, if one provided sneak attack, and another allowed you to treat a target as flat-footed, those would have a stacking effect with each other.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Have any of you even read the archetypes in question?
They both add options to the magus' choice of arcana. They don't replace anything with those arcana (though the magus must still "purchase" them when he gains access to a new arcana). So of course they can be combined.
Have any of you even read the archetypes in question?
They both add options to the magus' choice of arcana. They don't replace anything with those arcana (though the magus must still "purchase" them when he gains access to a new arcana). So of course they can be combined.
That doesn't follow from how multiple archetypes are applied because it doesn't take the whole rule into consideration.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.
Have any of you even read the archetypes in question?
They both add options to the magus' choice of arcana. They don't replace anything with those arcana (though the magus must still "purchase" them when he gains access to a new arcana). So of course they can be combined.
Might want to tone it back a little.
They don't have to REPLACE anything, they just have to ALTER the base option.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
In both of these cases, the magus arcana lists are altered, so no they can NOT be combined.
They don't replace anything with those arcana (though the magus must still "purchase" them when he gains access to a new arcana). So of course they can be combined.
zefig and Sniggevert have pointed out the rules that disallow this.
The reasoning is that even if two archetypes aren't efficient in their overlap (i.e. removing or weakening the same ability), altering it in any way allows for unintended consequences.
These two archetypes both strengthen the same class feature. It may end up costing additional resources, but it allows combinations not possible with either archetype alone. It doesn't matter whether there is or isn't something outrageous, the rule is simple, clear, and absolute so that there can be no argument.
That said, there *can* be discussion, with a homegame GM, as to whether the combination of archetypes is too much or not, and if they're willing to bend the rules.
|
The hexcrafter doesn't alter the arcana ability, though. The hexcrafter gets an entirely new abiilty, called hex arcana. The normal arcana ability is untouched. The same is true for the kapenia dancer. Those are new abilites, not alterations or replacements.
EDIT: To be more clear, the crossblooded/wildblooded FAQ doesn't apply, because those archetypes both change the class abilities "bloodline arcana" and "bloodline powers." That's not the case with the magus archetypes that give new arcana options, all of which give the class an entirely new ability with a different name granting access to the new arcana.
It looks to me as though the Qinggong Monk case is more applicable than the Crossblooded/Wildblooded Sorcerer case. The Magus Arcana replacements are every bit as optional as the Qinggong Monk ability replacements. Why would the fact that they are optional replacements for a single class feature rather than for multiple class features make a difference?
In my opinion, adding arcana options doesn't alter the arcana class feature, it just adds options to the choices.
Altering class abilities happens for many druid archetypes, for example, saying they gain Wild Shape at a later level and using a different effective druid level.
The magus arcana class ability just says the magus may choose an arcana from a list of choices at given levels. This isn't altered at all by these two archetypes.
What the archetypes do is give access to additional lists of arcana to choose from.
It's doable on Herolab without a non-validation warning, so I would allow it as a GM.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be a little bit more precise:
Apart from replacing spell recall, changing weapon proficiencies, etc. the important parts for this discussions are these:
- The Hexcrafter gains an ability called "Hex Arcana"
- The Kapenia Dancer gains an ability called "Kapenia Dancer Arcana"
Both abilities do similar things: they add options to choose from when selecting a magus arcana. But those still are two seperate abilities the magus gains by choosing an archetype, not alterations of the same class feature, so they won't cause any conflict when choosing both archetypes.