Goblin Squad Member
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I really think that overloading the Faction system is a Bad Idea.
And the simplest implementation if SAD would be "if you or your group have accepted a gift from someone in the last thirty minutes, reputation penalties for murdering them are trebled."
Everything else is ease if use and edge cases.
It is clear that we see different primary things as wrong with SAD. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that banditry might have contributing factors on other aspects of the game; however, will those other factors be worth the risk of implementing a system (SAD) that is unlikely to be perfect and therefore likely to result in abuse?
Is dealing with gankings and repeated SADs, while ALSO having to deal with NPC mobs and escalations in wilderness hexes, worth giving a few players a mechanic that they want?
I think it's possible to implement SAD in a way that supports the desired behavior without the potential for abuse.
1. The Bandit activates the SAD ability while targeting a Traveler, immediately flagging the Bandit as Hostile to everyone and shifting the Bandit's Alignment towards Chaos.
2. The System compares the relative values of relevant skills for both parties and determines the Initial Demand. At any time, the Traveler may Accept the Initial Demand. The Bandit never has a choice to Reject the Initial Demand.
3. The Traveler may propose a Counter Offer, which modifies the Initial Demand by adding and/or removing Coin and/or Items. At any time, the Bandit may Accept the Counter Offer. The Traveler never has a choice to Reject the Counter Offer.
4. If both parties Accept either the Initial Demand or the Counter Offer, the SAD is Accepted. Otherwise the SAD is Rejected.
5. At any time, the Bandit may initiate a countdown which will force the Traveler to Reject the Initial Demand after 10 seconds unless the SAD is Accepted before then.
6. If the SAD is Rejected, the Traveler is immediately flagged Hostile to the Bandit.
7. If the SAD is Accepted, the Coin and Items are immediately placed in Escrow and the Traveler is immediately flagged Fleeced with a reference to the Bandit for 15 minutes.
8. The Bandit may not use the SAD ability on a Traveler who has the Fleeced flag with a reference to that Bandit.
9. If the Bandit would lose Reputation for any action against a target with the Fleeced flag that references that Bandit, that Reputation loss is doubled, the Escrow is immediately returned to the Traveler, and the Fleeced flag is removed.
10. If the Fleeced flag expires naturally, the Escrow is immediately transferred to the Bandit.
In this system, the Fleeced flag is not used to protect the Traveler from subsequent SADs by different Bandits. If the Traveler is having that much trouble with Bandits, he should hire better guards or use a different route.
[Edit] Modified point 9 and added point 10 to clarify the function of the Escrow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why wouldn't everyone work on a SAD feat/ability?
It seems critical to me that initiating a SAD should flag you as Hostile to everyone. It seems incredibly unwise to me for a Traveler to flag himself as Hostile to a Bandit, making himself a consequence-free kill to the Bandit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that banditry might have contributing factors on other aspects of the game; however, will those other factors be worth the risk of implementing a system (SAD) that is unlikely to be perfect and therefore likely to result in abuse?
Is dealing with gankings and repeated SADs, while ALSO having to deal with NPC mobs and escalations in wilderness hexes, worth giving a few players a mechanic that they want?
I think it's possible to implement SAD in a way that supports the desired behavior without the potential for abuse.
1. The Bandit activates the SAD ability while targeting a Traveler, immediately flagging the Bandit as Hostile to everyone and shifting the Bandit's Alignment towards Chaos.
2. The System compares the relative values of relevant skills for both parties and determines the Initial Demand. At any time, the Traveler may Accept the Initial Demand. The Bandit never has a choice to Reject the Initial Demand.
3. The Traveler may propose a Counter Offer, which modifies the Initial Demand by adding and/or removing Coin and/or Items. At any time, the Bandit may Accept the Counter Offer. The Traveler never has a choice to Reject the Counter Offer.
4. If both parties Accept either the Initial Demand or the Counter Offer, the SAD is Accepted. Otherwise the SAD is Rejected.
5. At any time, the Bandit may initiate a countdown which will force the Traveler to Reject the Initial Demand after 10 seconds unless the SAD is Accepted before then.
6. If the SAD is Rejected, the Traveler is immediately flagged Hostile to the Bandit.
7. If the SAD is Accepted, the Coin and Items are immediately placed in Escrow and the Traveler is immediately flagged Fleeced with a reference to the Bandit for 15 minutes.
8. The Bandit may not use the SAD ability on a Traveler who has the Fleeced flag with a reference to that Bandit.
9. If the Bandit would lose Reputation for any action against a target with the Fleeced flag that references that Bandit, that Reputation loss is doubled....
A good example of a workable process.
You do not include a pre existing flag. Is this because you do not feel there is an issue (in the mix) of the ability to spot the bandit coming? You do not mind that all of the agency is with the bandit and there is absolutely no way to prevent it without: A) Fleeing from all unknown toons that you see, or B) attacking all unknown toons that you see?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon I don't understand why, in point 7, there needs to be escrow if the Traveler gets a fleeced marker. Anything handed over to the bandit is in his hands at that point.
I will guess that if the bandit breaks the "fleeced" timer, he loses the escrow. Yet I would be concerned that the bandit could get his prize to a safe place in 15 minutes (without risk) if that were the case.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon I don't understand why, in point 7, there needs to be escrow if the Traveler gets a fleeced marker. Anything handed over to the bandit is in his hands at that point.
Ugh, I didn't mean to leave that in. I was working with the idea of Escrow while trying to use the Fleeced Flag to protect the Traveler from subsequent Bandits. I abandoned that, but forgot to remove the Escrow.
I've updated the post to indicate how the Escrow should be handled in this simplified process.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You do not include a pre existing flag. Is this because you do not feel there is an issue (in the mix) of the ability to spot the bandit coming?
I think that would put too much of a burden on Bandits. The fact that they are immediately flagged Hostile to everyone should be sufficient.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You do not include a pre existing flag. Is this because you do not feel there is an issue (in the mix) of the ability to spot the bandit coming?I think that would put too much of a burden on Bandits. The fact that they are immediately flagged Hostile to everyone should be sufficient.
I wonder if that would work out alright. I will refrain from guessing that it wouldn't because we do know so little about everything.
I must confess that I am a little surprised. Your previously posted ideals seemed that you would prefer as little of such an atmosphere like that as possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Nihimon
I noticed that the Hostility trigger is set for when the SAD is actually used, and I have no issue with that.
I'm guessing there is a 15 minute timer for afterwards, also no problem with that.
I noticed also, no reference for Reputation bonus for accepted SAD. I'm aware that you believe reputation should only be gained over time, and that might actually take care of issues of Rep Grinding and other abuses both associated with the SAD and other activities as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why wouldn't everyone work on a SAD feat/ability?It seems critical to me that initiating a SAD should flag you as Hostile to everyone. It seems incredibly unwise to me for a Traveler to flag himself as Hostile to a Bandit, making himself a consequence-free kill to the Bandit.
I suppose there is a timer on the hostile flag; and if it's not enough of a risk to stop a bandit I don't see it stopping a guard from trying it first.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that banditry might have contributing factors on other aspects of the game; however, will those other factors be worth the risk of implementing a system (SAD) that is unlikely to be perfect and therefore likely to result in abuse?
Is dealing with gankings and repeated SADs, while ALSO having to deal with NPC mobs and escalations in wilderness hexes, worth giving a few players a mechanic that they want?
I think it's possible to implement SAD in a way that supports the desired behavior without the potential for abuse.
1. The Bandit activates the SAD ability while targeting a Traveler, immediately flagging the Bandit as Hostile to everyone and shifting the Bandit's Alignment towards Chaos.
2. The System compares the relative values of relevant skills for both parties and determines the Initial Demand. At any time, the Traveler may Accept the Initial Demand. The Bandit never has a choice to Reject the Initial Demand.
3. The Traveler may propose a Counter Offer, which modifies the Initial Demand by adding and/or removing Coin and/or Items. At any time, the Bandit may Accept the Counter Offer. The Traveler never has a choice to Reject the Counter Offer.
4. If both parties Accept either the Initial Demand or the Counter Offer, the SAD is Accepted. Otherwise the SAD is Rejected.
5. At any time, the Bandit may initiate a countdown which will force the Traveler to Reject the Initial Demand after 10 seconds unless the SAD is Accepted before then.
6. If the SAD is Rejected, the Traveler is immediately flagged Hostile to the Bandit.
7. If the SAD is Accepted, the Coin and Items are immediately placed in Escrow and the Traveler is immediately flagged Fleeced with a reference to the Bandit for 15 minutes.
8. The Bandit may not use the SAD ability on a Traveler who has the Fleeced flag with a reference to that Bandit.
9. If the Bandit would lose Reputation for any action against a target with the Fleeced flag that references that Bandit, that Reputation loss is doubled,...
Okay, Goblinworks, code that! But seriously, I notice that we have two roles (Bandit and Traveller) that are conveniently staying in their 'classes' in a game where you can train and slot any abilities the UI can hold.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sepherum, I'm not seeing them as two classes; I use Robber (or Bandit) and Traveler just to plainly distinguish between the person using the SAD attack/ability and the target of that attack/ability. Almost anyone might be the target of a SAD at some point.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Alright, true believers. I'm going to go ahead and bury this on page 15 (maybe 16 by the time I post) so the most invested of you will see it for criticism initially. It might make a blog post or at least its own thread once we've workshopped it a bit in here.
Lee wants me to be very clear that the systems described below will not be in soon; likely they'd happen sometime after settlements, given the tech dependencies and priorities.
That caveat out of the way, here's the revised idea inspired by suggestions from this thread. Your further criticisms and suggestions should follow :) .
Blinds
Given how our placement of structures changed from Ryan's original conception of hideouts, we've broken the "knocking people out of fast travel" functionality into its own structure. These are meant to be extremely temporary (basically the idea of just a hole or pile of bushes and a log you roll across the road), rather than formal hideouts. If hideouts interdicted fast travel over a whole hex, it seems likely that people would make it a priority to find the hideout PoI and destroy it. Blinds also let bandits potentially interdict fast travel in hexes they don't own.
- Blinds are a temporary construction you put down (construction method TBD and highly tech dependent). They're some kind of object that's not glaringly obvious. The users will need to be able to click it, but it might have its own Stealth rating so it's not visible until you're on top of it. TBD how you place it or craft it.
- It has a small radius where you get a Stealth bonus as if it were an aura. Being in this aura is basically admitting to being up to no good; if someone in your party issues a S&D from it, you'll also automatically join in (see below).
- Clicking it lets you turn off or on an aura that knocks people out of fast travel. This aura is basically big enough that you can put the blind near a road and catch people on the road. You can turn it on or off so you can let scarier groups through without stopping them. (Hopefully we can spawn a log model across the road when you've got it turned on.)
- It has a large radius around it that increases the range of S&D inspection. Normally, you can only inspect a target prior to issuing S&D from a short distance away, but if they're in the blind's radius, you can do it up to visual range (and you might have a lookout up the road that passes the details to you to decide whether to roll out the log or not).
- Settlements can make it illegal to deploy a Blind in their territory (potentially getting at least one Bandit the Criminal flag long before S&Ding anyone).
Stand and Deliver
- This is a Utility feat. Leveling it up increases the range you can use it at and reduces the radius that the target has to move around in after it's issued. Its effectiveness scales with a skill (see below). Activating it, even if you don't ultimately issue the S&D, is always a Crime (i.e., no "he was just lookin'"; assessing a target as to whether he's worth robbing isn't fair just because you decided he didn't have anything you wanted to steal).
- You can use the feat on any target within range (either the native range of the feat based on level, or anyone selectable and within a Blind's detection radius). This starts an Inspection.
- Inspecting a target for S&D generates a list of the target's carried and non-threaded items. The amount displayed is based on a skill comparison (probably bandit Perception vs. target Bluff, but maybe more appropriate skills if we can figure out more uses for, say, Appraise and Sleight of Hand than just S&D). This needs to be a "random" list that's consistent; we don't want multiple inspections to eventually turn up everything, but we also don't want valuable things to always show up/never show up because they happen to be at the top/bottom of the sort. The inspection window closes if the target gets far enough away for you to detarget.
- You can select one or more item stacks in the inspection window (may need some support for partial selection, and this whole thing is probably a modified trade window). Once you've selected, you click a button to Issue S&D, and the range on this is pretty short even with a blind.
- This alerts the target, pops up the window, and sets a visible radius around the target's feet (smaller the higher the bandit's feat level is). Crossing this radius counts as an immediate rejection of the S&D. The S&D skill now goes on a quite long (like several minutes) cooldown, making it much harder for the bandit to just S&D everyone hoping for a hit.
- If the target wants to play along rather than just bolting or attacking the Criminal-wearing bandit, he can either Accept what the bandit proposed, or put different items into the trade window (which changes "Accept" to "Propose New Deal"). This has some kind of timer on it before auto-rejection to keep from indefinite dithering.
- If a new deal was proposed, the Bandit can either "Accept" or "Demand Original Request." This also has a timer before auto-acceptance.
- If the bandit demanded the original, it's kicked back one more time to the target who can accept or reject with a timer.
- If the target accepts at any point, the currently selected items are traded to the bandit (might want to set a max range on this). The target gets the Fleeced flag for the next X minutes (20 might be too long; basically just needs to be long enough to get out of the hex in most cases). While this flag is going, he's immune to further S&D inspection and ANY Attackers take double rep loss.
- If the target rejects at any point, he enters combat and gets the Hostile (temporary) state to the issuer.
In Groups and Caravans
Keep in mind that we still don't have a detailed plan about how caravans work because it's highly tech-dependent.
- If you're in the Blind's +Stealth aura, you're complicit. If anyone in your party uses S&D, you also get the Criminal flag. On the plus side, 10% of your Perception/Appraise is added to the issuer's total (so a whole group of bandits with maxed skill have a total 450), and you'll also get in on a rejection making the target Hostile (temporary)(i.e., if you bandit in a group, you all get to attack the rejecting target without rep loss; if you bandit solo, only the S&D issuer can attack the target without rep loss).
- If you're in a group with someone who's targeted by S&D, 10% of your Bluff/Sleight of Hand is automatically added to the target for purposes of defending against S&D inspection. You still have to be targeted yourself to be in danger of losing anything or having to reject an S&D (and since there's a cooldown on S&D, basically all the bandits in a group will have to slot S&D if they want to S&D a group of merchants).
- Each wagon/pack animal in a caravan counts as a group member (and might be built to have its own skill rating/bonus to group skill) and must be targeted individually by S&D. The group leader handles all trade decisions for S&Ds against a vehicle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really think that overloading the Faction system is a Bad Idea.
GW has to load the Faction system before they can overload it.
Factional membership will likely have some mechanical advantage, or it won't be used by many. So the various factions likely have to be given the ability to train skills or special abilities or special weapon types - they have to offer something more than the possibility of being attacked.
I think that for many players, wars and feuds and settlement politics will serve their PvP and competition/conflict needs. Factions could easily be brought to bear as a carrot for those who want to take advantage of other non-consensual PvP.
Just a wild for-instance:
(assume 5 tiers of Outlaw training, allowing a "reasonable" SAD for 5% +5%/Tier, so 10-30%.)
Tier 1 Outlaw can be trained in any settlement
Tier 2 Outlaw can be trained in a settlement with entry Rep of >0
Tier 3 Outlaw can be trained in a settlement with entry Rep of >-2500
But! The Denizens of the Echo Wood faction might also provide the training, and settlements won't need rock-bottom rep:
Rank 1 can train Tier 1 Outlaw
Rank 3 can train Tier 2 Outlaw
Rank 4* can train Tier 3 Outlaw
Rank 5* can train Tier 4 Outlaw
Rank 6* can train Tier 5 Outlaw
* Ranks 4-6 are always seen as hostile by factional enemies of rank 4+. Factional enemies of lesser ranks can flag 'for the cause' to attack them as well.
(and @Stephen Cheney - very cool - will need to re-read that one a few times.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did parties get changed to 6? I thought they were 8: reference
300(max perception)+5(extra groupies)*0.1*300=450
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Stephen Thanks! I do not understand how a Blind can take someone out of fast travel: can players actually *see* a person that is fast travelling on the map? I always figured this was some kind of "overland map type of thing" but maybe not.
I understand that fast travel is about 5x as fast as regular walking (TBD), wouldn't this look weird?
Also, I take it fast travel always follows the road: does this mean that regular travel could in fact be safer since you can then avoid roads (and blinds)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You do not include a pre existing flag. Is this because you do not feel there is an issue (in the mix) of the ability to spot the bandit coming?I think that would put too much of a burden on Bandits. The fact that they are immediately flagged Hostile to everyone should be sufficient.I wonder if that would work out alright. I will refrain from guessing that it wouldn't because we do know so little about everything.
I must confess that I am a little surprised. Your previously posted ideals seemed that you would prefer as little of such an atmosphere like that as possible.
I want the game to support Banditry even if I personally choose to fight it in-game with every resource at my disposal. It's content :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Stephen Cheney, there are two concerns I have with your proposal.
1. Allowing the Bandits to select which items to demand gives them too much power. There's no reason not to demand everything available unless they're not confident they could win, in which case they likely wouldn't have stopped their target in the first place.
2. Making the target immune to further S&Ds for a limited time will create a strong incentive for Travelers to have their friends S&D them for a pittance as often as necessary to maintain that protection.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You do not include a pre existing flag. Is this because you do not feel there is an issue (in the mix) of the ability to spot the bandit coming?I think that would put too much of a burden on Bandits. The fact that they are immediately flagged Hostile to everyone should be sufficient.I wonder if that would work out alright. I will refrain from guessing that it wouldn't because we do know so little about everything.
I must confess that I am a little surprised. Your previously posted ideals seemed that you would prefer as little of such an atmosphere like that as possible.
I want the game to support Banditry even if I personally choose to fight it in-game with every resource at my disposal. It's content :)
Fair enough! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Allowing the Bandits to select which items to demand gives them too much power. There's no reason not to demand everything available unless they're not confident they could win, in which case they likely wouldn't have stopped their target in the first place.
I think they're already planning on showing the robber a subset of what the traveler is carrying: The amount displayed is based on a skill comparison (probably bandit Perception vs. target Bluff, but maybe more appropriate skills if we can figure out more uses for, say, Appraise and Sleight of Hand than just S&D). This needs to be a "random" list that's consistent; we don't want multiple inspections to eventually turn up everything, but we also don't want valuable things to always show up/never show up because they happen to be at the top/bottom of the sort.
2. Making the target immune to further S&Ds for a limited time will create a strong incentive for Travelers to have their friends S&D them for a pittance as often as necessary to maintain that protection.
Their friend is now flagged Criminal and can be killed by anyone. Oh, and it takes one friend flagged as Criminal for each protected traveler.
Edit to add: in settled areas, that trick could raise the Corruption level as well, ensuring the friend is targeted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Activating it, even if you don't ultimately issue the S&D, is always a Crime (i.e., no "he was just lookin'"; assessing a target as to whether he's worth robbing isn't fair just because you decided he didn't have anything you wanted to steal).
Does that mean a criminal flag (in uncontrolled hexes) or just "hostility"? Does it make any difference?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think they're already planning on showing the robber a subset of what the traveler is carrying...
I understand. What's the incentive for the Bandit to do anything other than demand everything he possibly can? It seems the only real incentive is the Bandit's ability to carry the items without getting encumbered.
Their friend is now flagged Criminal and can be killed by anyone.
So, my naked friend alt S&D's me. Anyone can kill him without losing Reputation, but they won't gain anything at all for doing so, and I don't care if he gets killed. Meanwhile, anyone who attacks me loses double Reputation and no one can S&D me. I'd park a naked alt at the entry point of every single Hex I'm going to be traveling through and S&D for 1 Coin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, my nakedfriendalt S&D's me. Anyone can kill him without losing Reputation, but they won't gain anything at all for doing so, and I don't care if he gets killed. Meanwhile, anyone who attacks me loses double Reputation and no one can S&D me. I'd park a naked alt at the entry point of every single Hex I'm going to be traveling through and S&D for 1 Coin.
I am looking back for what your solution was for this. I know there was one, but I can't find it. Was it a minimum?
Edit: I also wonder what CAN be done against people that will go to such lengths for anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it's critical to protect the target from subsequent S&D's, then I would recommend the following modifications to my suggested process (described here).
11. If a Bandit uses S&D against a Traveler who already has a Fleeced flag from a different Bandit (which they should be able to see, including what's in Escrow), then the Escrow from both S&D's is Contested and the Bandits are Hostile to each other for 4 hours (or until the Contest is resolved) during which time they may not enter any Settlements or other "safe" areas and may not log out safely.
12. A Bandit wins a Contest by defeating the other Bandit in combat, or by destroying Coin and Items to match the other Bandit's Escrow.
13. If there is no "winner" to the Contest, then the Contested Escrow is destroyed and removed from the game.
There is no real incentive to have a "friend" S&D you. A 1 Coin S&D does no good, because the other Bandit will simply destroy 1 Coin and win the Contest. A more valuable "friendly" S&D is dangerous because the items might be destroyed if the "friendly" Bandit can't win the Contest. There's an increasing incentive for subsequent Bandits to avoid using S&D on you because they won't gain anything unless they can win the Contest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that banditry might have contributing factors on other aspects of the game; however, will those other factors be worth the risk of implementing a system (SAD) that is unlikely to be perfect and therefore likely to result in abuse?
Is dealing with gankings and repeated SADs, while ALSO having to deal with NPC mobs and escalations in wilderness hexes, worth giving a few players a mechanic that they want?
I think it's possible to implement SAD in a way that supports the desired behavior without the potential for abuse.
1. The Bandit activates the SAD ability while targeting a Traveler, immediately flagging the Bandit as Hostile to everyone and shifting the Bandit's Alignment towards Chaos.
2. The System compares the relative values of relevant skills for both parties and determines the Initial Demand. At any time, the Traveler may Accept the Initial Demand. The Bandit never has a choice to Reject the Initial Demand.
3. The Traveler may propose a Counter Offer, which modifies the Initial Demand by adding and/or removing Coin and/or Items. At any time, the Bandit may Accept the Counter Offer. The Traveler never has a choice to Reject the Counter Offer.
4. If both parties Accept either the Initial Demand or the Counter Offer, the SAD is Accepted. Otherwise the SAD is Rejected.
5. At any time, the Bandit may initiate a countdown which will force the Traveler to Reject the Initial Demand after 10 seconds unless the SAD is Accepted before then.
6. If the SAD is Rejected, the Traveler is immediately flagged Hostile to the Bandit.
7. If the SAD is Accepted, the Coin and Items are immediately placed in Escrow and the Traveler is immediately flagged Fleeced with a reference to the Bandit for 15 minutes.
8. The Bandit may not use the SAD ability on a Traveler who has the Fleeced flag with a reference to that Bandit.
9. If the Bandit would lose Reputation for any action against a target with the Fleeced flag that references that Bandit, that Reputation loss is doubled,...
It is quite eerie how similar your proposal is to the mechanic that Stephen proposed...
Just who exactly are you working for?? o.O
I got a shiver down my spine...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the idea that a player refusing an S&D gets flagged, why is that? Unless the S&D is very reasonable I don't see a reason to punish a merchant for not wanting to give up his goods. If he refuses the bandit should have to kill him by taking reputation loss, in my opinion. :)
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Did parties get changed to 6? I thought they were 8: reference
300(max perception)+5(extra groupies)*0.1*300=450
Yep. Party size is now 6 instead of 8, because it worked out better on the UI and we didn't have any strong reasons for it being 8 instead of 6. If someone feels particularly strongly about it, you can make a thread and I'll point Tork at it ;) .
@Stephen Thanks! I do not understand how a Blind can take someone out of fast travel: can players actually *see* a person that is fast travelling on the map? I always figured this was some kind of "overland map type of thing" but maybe not.
I understand that fast travel is about 5x as fast as regular walking (TBD), wouldn't this look weird?
Also, I take it fast travel always follows the road: does this mean that regular travel could in fact be safer since you can then avoid roads (and blinds)?
I should have clarified what was meant by Fast Travel. We'll basically have two stages of Fast Travel.
Whenever we get the minimum implementation of the system online, you'll pick up a horse at a stable building that connects along roads to some other stable building. It'll work similarly to speeders in SW:TOR; you'll go fast along the ground (not sure how fast at this point). Unlike TOR, it will be possible to knock you off of your horse if someone can catch you (and then you have to walk the rest of the way); one way to do that will be with Blinds.
Eventually, when players have mounts they can drive precisely, there will still be various incentives for following roads as far as speed, so a Blind that knocks people off their personal horse will still be useful. Unlike stable-based travel, you'll probably be able to get back on a personal mount and resume fast movement once you're done with the bandit encounter.
Activating it, even if you don't ultimately issue the S&D, is always a Crime (i.e., no "he was just lookin'"; assessing a target as to whether he's worth robbing isn't fair just because you decided he didn't have anything you wanted to steal).Does that mean a criminal flag (in uncontrolled hexes) or just "hostility"? Does it make any difference?
The Criminal flag is the Criminal flag is the Criminal flag. Just like with looting rights, sometimes we'll give you Criminal even though you're in a lawless area, rather than inventing a special flag that's basically "Criminal... except even where there are no laws."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the idea that a player refusing an S&D gets flagged, why is that?
If you're referring to my proposal or to Stephen Cheney's, you'll note we both made clear that the target is only flagged Hostile to the Bandit that issued the S&D, not to everyone else. The reason for this is to allow the Bandit to attack the target without losing Reputation.
If the Bandit loses Reputation for killing a target who Rejects the S&D, then there's little reason to issue the S&D in the first place. This puts too high a cost on Banditry, and there won't be any High Reputation Bandits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Criminal flag is the Criminal flag is the Criminal flag. Just like with looting rights, sometimes we'll give you Criminal even though you're in a lawless area, rather than inventing a special flag that's basically "Criminal... except even where there are no laws."
Bookmarking that. Something tells me I'm going to need to quote it... repeatedly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Criminal flag is the Criminal flag is the Criminal flag. Just like with looting rights, sometimes we'll give you Criminal even though you're in a lawless area, rather than inventing a special flag that's basically "Criminal... except even where there are no laws."Bookmarking that. Something tells me I'm going to need to quote it... repeatedly.
Laughing out loud! ;)
Edit: Now you probably won't need it. The small task of bookmarking is worth that, though.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Is it poasible to examine a player without S&D ? If I understand this correctly the robber gets a look at your stuff can pick any keywords and get an advantage attacking you...
There is likely to be a non-S&D inspection that anyone can do from a context menu on a target, but it'll mostly display secondary information like faction memberships and non-salient flags that we didn't want to have clutter the main selection UI but still want to make available to the players.
S&D inspection won't show threaded gear, so it'd be hard to figure out too much of a target's combat capabilities through it unless for some reason the target hadn't threaded his most relevant items. But S&D inspecting someone will give you an advantage, even if only to decide "screw S&D, I'm just going to kill this guy and take everything." That's another reason why the Criminal flag is applied on inspection rather than on issue; it's a pretty big advantage in the first place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it poasible to examine a player without S&D ? If I understand this correctly the robber gets a look at your stuff can pick any keywords and get an advantage attacking you...There is likely to be a non-S&D inspection that anyone can do from a context menu on a target, but it'll mostly display secondary information like faction memberships and non-salient flags that we didn't want to have clutter the main selection UI but still want to make available to the players.
S&D inspection won't show threaded gear, so it'd be hard to figure out too much of a target's combat capabilities through it unless for some reason the target hadn't threaded his most relevant items. But S&D inspecting someone will give you an advantage, even if only to decide "screw S&D, I'm just going to kill this guy and take everything." That's another reason why the Criminal flag is applied on inspection rather than on issue; it's a pretty big advantage in the first place.
Thanks for all the info Stephen!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like that each individual requires a separate inspection and S&D. It means that groups require groups for speed and expediency.
I am curious how that will play in a timely fashion if a group leader must also address demands separately for each mule and wagon. Unless I read that part incorrectly?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand. What's the incentive for the Bandit to do anything other than demand everything he possibly can? It seems the only real incentive is the Bandit's ability to carry the items without getting encumbered.
If I understand it correctly, the bandit won't really know how much of the total goods are displayed. That could encourage him to choose all that he sees if he thinks it is a medium or small part of what you really have. It could also encourage him to demand a reasonable/fair part of what he sees, just to get the demand accepted quickly without dithering and dickering. He is flagged at this point to any passerby.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am curious how that will play in a timely fashion if a group leader must also address demands separately for each mule and wagon. Unless I read that part incorrectly?
Since the group leader is making the accept/deny decision for each wagon or mule, I expect he won't have huge amounts of time to dither and negotiate on all of them. Accept or refuse might be all he has time to do - maybe he uses fewer mules next trip.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am curious how that will play in a timely fashion if a group leader must also address demands separately for each mule and wagon. Unless I read that part incorrectly?Since the group leader is making the accept/deny decision for each wagon or mule, I expect he won't have huge amounts of time to dither and negotiate on all of them. Accept or refuse might be all he has time to do - maybe he uses fewer mules next trip.
Maybe not huge amounts of time, but I can hardly expect that he will be required to deal with multiple demands at the same time. Each time he should have the chance for a "propose new deal", shouldn't he? Seems like it could get to be a lengthy process.
If the "caravan" is a "get at the stable" thing, I doubt that you could work it with 3 potatoes in some mules. The encumbrance will probably be optimized by the computer... Or by personal ownership. Hmm....
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about law enforcement SADs to discover contraband? For instance (excuse me, TEO & Bringslite) brighthaven has put a ban on no sword trading in their hex unless it is done by company X (basically a government-sanctioned monopoly, think economic-industrial complex). Bringslite, being the fine aspiring free trader he is, decides to "run" a shipment of flaming longswords +2 into brighthaven, directly violating this ban.
What does brighthaven have to counter this? Does Bringslite just get the criminal flag and then the chopping block? How is that fair for a non-pvp character committing a non-pvp crime? Maybe there should be a fine system in addition to the laws? (e.g certain crimes can be posted with a bail, so a "dead or alive system, or there are certain crimes that only generate a "fine" flag not a full "criminal" flag).
What if Bringslite is able to "hide" his swords and sneak them in that way (bringing up the smuggling, but that is an argument for the other thread, so for now let us pretend it is implemented). What can the guards do to inspect bringslite's caravan that is not a SAD?
Another Example
The PfO "summit" is holding session and only certain peoples are admitted/maybe there is a war going and there is this narrow pass. What can guards do for a "checkpoint" system to stop people entering a territory and determining hostility or not without getting a criminal flag (so an entire company can't just fast travel up to perfect attack formation)?
I know this is later on stuff, but it is food for thought methinks! thanks!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What about law enforcement SADs to discover contraband? For instance (excuse me, TEO & Bringslite) brighthaven has put a ban on no sword trading in their hex unless it is done by company X (basically a government-sanctioned monopoly, think economic-industrial complex). Bringslite, being the fine aspiring free trader he is, decides to "run" a shipment of flaming longswords +2 into brighthaven, directly violating this ban.
What does brighthaven have to counter this? Does Bringslite just get the criminal flag and then the chopping block? How is that fair for a non-pvp character committing a non-pvp crime? Maybe there should be a fine system in addition to the laws? (e.g certain crimes can be posted with a bail, so a "dead or alive system, or there are certain crimes that only generate a "fine" flag not a full "criminal" flag).
What if Bringslite is able to "hide" his swords and sneak them in that way (bringing up the smuggling, but that is an argument for the other thread, so for now let us pretend it is implemented). What can the guards do to inspect bringslite's caravan that is not a SAD?
Another Example
The PfO "summit" is holding session and only certain peoples are admitted/maybe there is a war going and there is this narrow pass. What can guards do for a "checkpoint" system to stop people entering a territory and determining hostility or not without getting a criminal flag (so an entire company can't just fast travel up to perfect attack formation)?
I know this is later on stuff, but it is food for thought methinks! thanks!
I think this edge case is covered under "Walk any road, float any river", and possibly by the settlement in question allowing/prohibiting certain individuals from using their market.
In other words, a government-sanctioned criminal element is still criminal.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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{wall of juicy text}
I'm assuming that blinds will belong to a group, with that group being the only ones that can interact with it other than to capture or destroy it. That makes all of the criminal and hostility flags easier to handle. In any case, blinds will have their own crowdforging discussion along with fast travel.
It's not clear if the target of a SAD can offer coin instead of or in addition to items. I think that the ability to offer (but not demand) coin is important to making the idea work, but implementation is far enough in the future that my understanding might change.
If there's a large opportunity cost to being able to see (and demand) most of the possible extortion, then I think that the reputation effects might be insufficient to cause enough bandits to use SAD rather than simply attack and take the Rep loss. However, this is simply a concern about the magnitude of numbers and how they interact with players; some players will always murder opposing characters, and causing their characters to become low-Rep is the intended goal; some others will differ in the opposite direction. Both the magnitude of the Reputation shifts and the amount of stuff made visible by the inspection can be adjusted in order to alter player behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about law enforcement SADs to discover contraband? For instance (excuse me, TEO & Bringslite) brighthaven has put a ban on no sword trading in their hex unless it is done by company X (basically a government-sanctioned monopoly, think economic-industrial complex). Bringslite, being the fine aspiring free trader he is, decides to "run" a shipment of flaming longswords +2 into brighthaven, directly violating this ban.
What does brighthaven have to counter this? Does Bringslite just get the criminal flag and then the chopping block? How is that fair for a non-pvp character committing a non-pvp crime? Maybe there should be a fine system in addition to the laws? (e.g certain crimes can be posted with a bail, so a "dead or alive system, or there are certain crimes that only generate a "fine" flag not a full "criminal" flag).
What if Bringslite is able to "hide" his swords and sneak them in that way (bringing up the smuggling, but that is an argument for the other thread, so for now let us pretend it is implemented). What can the guards do to inspect bringslite's caravan that is not a SAD?
Another Example
The PfO "summit" is holding session and only certain peoples are admitted/maybe there is a war going and there is this narrow pass. What can guards do for a "checkpoint" system to stop people entering a territory and determining hostility or not without getting a criminal flag (so an entire company can't just fast travel up to perfect attack formation)?
I know this is later on stuff, but it is food for thought methinks! thanks!
Need a new thread for that idea.
There probably should be a skill or mechanic that allows a settlement to "inspect" incoming goods. If, that is, enough people want and will use it. Your Bad Boy Bringslite example should probably expect to lose trade access to Brighthaven's markets when he gets caught. Hardly something that this Good Boy Bringslite would risk for a shipment or three. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Drakhan
I am one of those "Bandit crowd" types by most peoples' standards.
@Decius
I'm afraid I don't agree entirely.
Is a guard who stops people to check if they are "hostile" or of a "feuding" company automatically criminal? I mean there are plenty of cases where yes, gov't crime is still crime, but I don't believe it is universal enough to warrant a blanket.
I will point out this is a non-pvp system I am proposing, and at no point in it would a person be considered hostile/criminal unless they were hostile already or they tried to run away during inspection (if you run from the police when they are searching your stuff, especially after they shout "halt in the name of the law" or "you are under arrest", then you are committing a crime in whatever country you care to name)
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about law enforcement SADs to discover contraband? For instance (excuse me, TEO & Bringslite) brighthaven has put a ban on no sword trading in their hex unless it is done by company X (basically a government-sanctioned monopoly, think economic-industrial complex). Bringslite, being the fine aspiring free trader he is, decides to "run" a shipment of flaming longswords +2 into brighthaven, directly violating this ban.
What does brighthaven have to counter this? Does Bringslite just get the criminal flag and then the chopping block? How is that fair for a non-pvp character committing a non-pvp crime? Maybe there should be a fine system in addition to the laws? (e.g certain crimes can be posted with a bail, so a "dead or alive system, or there are certain crimes that only generate a "fine" flag not a full "criminal" flag).
What if Bringslite is able to "hide" his swords and sneak them in that way (bringing up the smuggling, but that is an argument for the other thread, so for now let us pretend it is implemented). What can the guards do to inspect bringslite's caravan that is not a SAD?
Another Example
The PfO "summit" is holding session and only certain peoples are admitted/maybe there is a war going and there is this narrow pass. What can guards do for a "checkpoint" system to stop people entering a territory and determining hostility or not without getting a criminal flag (so an entire company can't just fast travel up to perfect attack formation)?
I know this is later on stuff, but it is food for thought methinks! thanks!
Need a new thread for this too.
Not sure what you mean here. That a group should deny access to an area and do it without proper agency of flags? Not suffering consequences?