Stand and Deliver Discussion


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Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
FMS Quietus wrote:
Someone whom is constantly SADing people is going to make a bad name for himself. People will want to keep him out of the town and not deal with him because of it. They'll know him sure, but he won't be liked.
Er, that is why there is chaotic, neutral, and evil cities.

If they've been the constant targets of an individual? I'm talking about big rep hits for abusing SAD. Not just every now and then doing it.

Goblin Squad Member

I believe they're still planning on some kind of Salute/Rebuke system where you can directly impact another character's Reputation by spending some of your own. That in itself might result in some Reputation costs for overusing S&D.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I believe they're still planning on some kind of Salute/Rebuke system where you can directly impact another character's Reputation by spending some of your own. That in itself might result in some Reputation costs for overusing S&D.

When would anyone who has just been SAD'd, perhaps even for a very reasonable amount, /Salute the bandit?

What if a person who accepts a reasonable SAD or rejects it, and then turns around a Rebukes the bandit, doesn't that undermine the Dev's intent in the SAD system?

Can the /salute system be spammed to game the reputation system?

Can the /rebuke system be abused by a settlement leader who demands that all of the citizens pays a "tax" in the form of /salute for him or he can demand the citizens /rebuke a selected target without just cause?

Too many possibilities for abuse, especially with the ability to multibox and roll free alts.

I'd be +7500 in a weekend, yes my alts do love me that much!!

Goblin Squad Member

I don't really like the Salute/Rebuke idea. The only actions that should effect Rep is our own individual actions. We should not be able to give or take Rep from another character.

If a bandit uses S&D, then that is a good thing. Though there should be some type of limit on what he can demand. I also think S&D should not cost any type of reputation hit except maybe if their demand is too high. Maybe 50% or something like that.

The game should encourages the use of S&D.

Goblin Squad Member

The salute/rebuke thing seems a little weird and kind of risky an idea just for the players, much less an as a possible exploitable mechanic.


On the other hand, assuming you can keep alts from using it—isn't the "overwhelm someone with Reputation debuffs" idea kinda realistic? You're weakening your whole settlement to target one guy. That sort of thing happens in real life and could be seen as a valid tactic.

The debuff on his Rep would be miniscule compared to yours, of course—like, he loses ten points per Rebuke, you lose a third of the amount of what's lost from just attacking someone.

Of course, that makes Rebuke basically pointless for a lone player. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. I'm not sure the system can be made to work tidily.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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I don't think a salute/rebuke system can be made to work without inviting abuse in both directions.

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
I don't think a salute/rebuke system can be made to work without inviting abuse in both directions.

If GW is foolish enough to put it in, I will certainly use it to maximum benefit. "If you build it, they will come." If you make something so easily exploitable, it will be exploited.

I hope GW leaves that idea back in the archives and let it never see the light of day.

Goblin Squad Member

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I think that an easy way to have SAD not be out of control in terms of "taking too much," or " asking too high or too low" and such like that would be to make SAD a simple skill check. I roll my perception vs your stealth and that gives a % of goods I "Find" and get to pick from. Honestly, if I am the bandit and I am robbing you, and I (as a player) know that I get to ask for a set %, then it is always a set %, but if it is random based on what I "find" then I don't know if I would be robbing you blind, or if maybe I am only seeing 10% of what you got.

I try and illustrate to make my point clear:

If SAD always "offered" 10% of goods carried, or maybe the value in GP of 10% of what is carried, and that was a set amount that doesn't change, then I could "value" a target based on what I see is the amount I would get on a successful SAD. If I see that you need to give me 100 GP, or 10 iron bars, I know that you have 1000 GP or 100 iron bars on you at that moment.

If it was random, meaning my perception vs your stealth, then random selection of your gear up to that %, I would have no idea (as a player) if that is your whole inventory, or only 10% of it. Maybe you only have 100 gp on you, or maybe you have 200k.

Plus it give me a reason to level perception as a skill, and travelers the stealth skill. I am all for more incentives to learn more skills and varied uses of those skills. I think that will make the whole system more indepth and enjoyed.

Side note: I thought we were done with this whole discussion LOL. Glad to see us talking instead of flaming one another. GG community. <Thumbs up>

Goblin Squad Member

Thumbs up to The Goodfellow's idea. There may be a need for even more bells and whistles attached to SADs but I like the randomization part and a means for the robbee to keep parts of the inventory secret from the robber.


My one real point of hesitance is kind of what Andius mentioned in another thread: People are already going to see Perception as the no-brainer skill. Does it really need a second use?

Appraise might be a more reasonable bet—in the tabletop, it even has the ability to let you determine at a glance the most valuable item in the room.

Goblin Squad Member

I think there needs to be some room for a bandit to choose to be more or less demanding based on his mood, his appraisal of relative strength, how charming the merchant is, etc. I like the idea of a random result but maybe there are different bands: a "friendly" SAD might average around 5%, a "standard" SAD around 10%, and a "demanding" SAD around 15%, modified by the RNG and relative skills at hiding vs finding the hidden cache in the wheel well. Or whatever numbers work.


I think the 10% could just be the "maximum", and he could pick anything below that threshold if he wished.

Goblin Squad Member

I like the idea of the appraise skill be used in some context with SADs.

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think the 10% could just be the "maximum", and he could pick anything below that threshold if he wished.

But that's not really a negotiating point- if I'm a merchant, being told by a bandit at swordpoint to "accept the 10% deal but I promise I'll take it easy on you" doesn't really inspire confidence. "I like you, click OK on my 'Friendly' offer and we can all meet at the inn for a drink afterwards" sounds a lot better.


I would think the amount you request is issued as part of the Stand and Deliver, not afterwards.

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I would think the amount you request is issued as part of the Stand and Deliver, not afterwards.

That's the point I'm making. Demanding access to 10% and saying you'll only take half of that, is not nearly as tempting as just asking for 5%.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I think the 10% could just be the "maximum", and he could pick anything below that threshold if he wished.

I still don't see how this is exclusive to the bandit giving his price during the SAD.

Goblin Squad Member

I would not negotiate in either of those two ways. I'd be more inclined to say "Give us x amount or we can easily kill you for 75% loot, you will lose the other 25%, and your gear will also take a hit as well."

But I'd say it with a smile ;-)

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
I believe they're still planning on some kind of Salute/Rebuke system where you can directly impact another character's Reputation by spending some of your own. That in itself might result in some Reputation costs for overusing S&D.

When would anyone who has just been SAD'd, perhaps even for a very reasonable amount, /Salute the bandit?

What if a person who accepts a reasonable SAD or rejects it, and then turns around a Rebukes the bandit, doesn't that undermine the Dev's intent in the SAD system?

Can the /salute system be spammed to game the reputation system?

Can the /rebuke system be abused by a settlement leader who demands that all of the citizens pays a "tax" in the form of /salute for him or he can demand the citizens /rebuke a selected target without just cause?

Too many possibilities for abuse, especially with the ability to multibox and roll free alts.

I'd be +7500 in a weekend, yes my alts do love me that much!!

Seeing as I'm not an a%+@+~!, and assuming you aren't being an a*$%%+& when you rob me, I'd probably /salute you.


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I would never Salute someone who just killed me. It's nothing personal, but I'm already losing gold—I don't want to lose reputation, too.

The only way I could see Salutes/Rebukes working would be if they had certain prerequisites: You can only Salute or Rebuke someone who just killed you, and you can only Salute someone you've just killed. For obvious reasons, I do not think you should be able to Rebuke someone you're killing.

Goblin Squad Member

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I would only accept a rebuke system if they could be done this well

The Best Rebuke of All Time

Goblin Squad Member

I see the appraise skill being used to get an actual value of the goods found, and perception being what is actually found. So I might find the ore you are carrying, but since I didn't train appraise, my price value is out dated and didn't know prices went up so I think it is only worth 1g per unit rather that 3g. I would rather see it err on low side rather that high just because I could see "lucky" rolls being abused. Meaning the real current price in the area is 3g per unit, I blow the appraise check high and think 10g each.

Keep in mind, most of this I am happy to wait and get late EE or OE just because I think it is more indepth and complicated. However, if that is incorrect, then by all means that would make SAD useful and fun, while giving meaning to skills involved.

Side note: @KC, I understand your concern over "another reason to max perception" but it is one of those skills, even in TT, that is widely used and very useful. That being said, I am not opposed to other skills used ins place of or in sync with perception. I have just come to realize that perception is just one of those skills. Especially since it was combined from the previously separate listen, search, spot skills. Maybe PFO could consider splitting perception up into those 3 skills so that it would require more time and effort to "max perception." I would be ok with that.

In the case of separate skills, I would argue that SEARCH would be used if "looking through" a wagon before a SAD, vs SPOT which would be just what was seen at a glance, both would be vs stealth. Maybe an option when issuing a SAD as to which would be used or something. But only 1 "Method" per SAD and each could "find" different things while missing other things.

Just brainstorming a bit.


Frankly, I'd rather a whole new skill got added than make Perception even more important.

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Frankly, I'd rather a whole new skill got added than make Perception even more important.

This is why I suggested splitting it up into 3, Search, Spot, Listen. Like it was in 2nd ed, and 3rd D&D I think.


I'd rather Spot and Listen be left merged, actually—they're gonna serve the exact same purpose of countering Stealth. Keeping Search separate is a good idea, though.

Goblin Squad Member

I like "The Goodfellow" idea on using skill checks to determine how much is S&D. And splitting Search skill from Perception is a good idea too. Being able to Spot/Listen for things is more intuitive while Search is more of an active skill.

I liked the Passive Insight/Perception implemented in 4E DnD.

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