Furyborn + Amulet of Mighty Fists: Enhancement bonus cap?

[aboniks]

Posit an Amulet of Mighty Fists:

It is crafted with a +3 enhancement bonus. It then has Furyborn applied.

Assume the wearer makes eight unarmed strikes against the same opponent in single combat. Are the enhancement bonuses below correct, or should they max out at +5?

1. +3
2. +4
4. +5
5. +6
6. +7
7. +8
8. +8

Note: The merits of furyborn and the AoF (or lack thereof), and the likelihood of hitting something eight times are not what I'm interested in here. All I'm looking for here is math/capping help.

Thanks in advance.

[Gilfalas]

The Furyborn power clearly and explicitly calls out an enhancement bonus limit of +5. I don't see any reason it would ever go higher.

[aboniks]

That's exactly what I'm tripping over, yes.

Bonus (Enhancement) wrote:

Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack.

So, it should actually look like this, yes?:

1. +3
2. +3
3. +3
4. +4
5. +5
6. +5
7. +5
8. +5

What's confusing me is how you treat an amulet of mighty fists, mechanically. Is the Furyborn enhancement bonus applied to the object (creature-as-weapon) or to the Amulet itself, for purposes of determining stacking? Ditto with the +3 enhancement bonus on the amulet in this case...is it on the creature-as-weapon (object), or on the amulet (object)?

[Shoga]

The AoMF would have a magical aura equivalent to a +5 weapon or item. It would use the +3 as a bonus to its saves vs breakage just like other items.

But, for the purpose of overcoming DR, the +3-+5 enhancements are on your hands/feet. And for the initial 2 attacks, your +3 enhancement to the item is in effect,Only the greater one is applied. So, at the 3rd attack, it could be either one. at the 4th attack it changes to the Furyborn effect for +4 and +5 enhancement.

Shogahin

[aboniks]

Okay. That makes sense. Thank you both. :)

[HaraldKlak]

Shoga wrote:

The AoMF would have a magical aura equivalent to a +5 weapon or item. It would use the +3 as a bonus to its saves vs breakage just like other items.

But, for the purpose of overcoming DR, the +3-+5 enhancements are on your hands/feet. And for the initial 2 attacks, your +3 enhancement to the item is in effect,Only the greater one is applied. So, at the 3rd attack, it could be either one. at the 4th attack it changes to the Furyborn effect for +4 and +5 enhancement.

Shogahin

I disagree with part of this.

Furyborn (like bane and furious) specifically states that the weapons 'enhancement bonus increases'.

As such, it stacks with the normal enhancement bonus. And becomes a +4 bonsu after the first attack, and a +5 bonus after the second attack.

It doesn't change the hard cap of a +5 enhancement bonus, since this is written into the furyborn ability.

All in all, the attacks become:

1: +3
2: +4
3: +5
4: +5
5: +5
...

[aboniks]

That's where I originally got hung up too.

Does "enhancement bonus increases" effectively mean that it stacks in this case? Enhancement bonuses to the same weapon aren't supposed to, but I can see the semantic argument that this is a special case, and not a stack, as such.

If it starts as a +3 on the first hit, it should follow that the second hit is increased to +4 by Furyborn.

That was part of how I got to wondering if it should go above +5 in the first place.

[Gilfalas]

aboniks wrote:

That's where I originally got hung up too.

Does "enhancement bonus increases" effectively mean that it stacks in this case? Enhancement bonuses to the same weapon aren't supposed to, but I can see the semantic argument that this is a special case, and not a stack, as such.

If it starts as a +3 on the first hit, it should follow that the second hit is increased to +4 by Furyborn.

That was part of how I got to wondering if it should go above +5 in the first place.

It says it caps at +5, not at +5 over the starting weapon value.

[aboniks]

Gilfalas wrote:

aboniks wrote:

That's where I originally got hung up too.

Does "enhancement bonus increases" effectively mean that it stacks in this case? Enhancement bonuses to the same weapon aren't supposed to, but I can see the semantic argument that this is a special case, and not a stack, as such.

If it starts as a +3 on the first hit, it should follow that the second hit is increased to +4 by Furyborn.

That was part of how I got to wondering if it should go above +5 in the first place.

It says it caps at +5, not at +5 over the starting weapon value.

Agreed. Furyborn says it caps the "extra" enhancement bonus at five. I intend to treat is as such. I'm not intending to let it do anything more, at this point. I'll have just to decide how to treat that second and third strike. If it "increases" but "doesn't stack", it may just come down to flipping a coin to decide which takes precedence.

The way Furyborn is written definitely bugs me though.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

From the mechanical description, it says it stops at +5. This does not mean you can reach a total of +8 though, as it is an Enhancement bonus, just like your AoMF already has. They won't stack, so you'll take one bonus or the other. Furyborn isn't worth it IMO. Get a Bane's Baldric for your Chest or Body slot(can't remember which). It actually treats your enhancement bonus as +2 higher. It's a disgustingly wonderful item, and relatively cheap for such a nice perk.

[Kazaan]

It's similar to the difference between getting +2 Natural Armor Bonus to AC and getting a +2 Enhancement Bonus to your Natural Armor. Furyborn takes whatever Enhancement bonus is on your weapon (+3 in this case) and increases it by 1. The total value of your "real" enhancement bonus (not including equivalent bonuses like the +2 for Furyborn) stops at +5. So it would look like this:

1: +3
2: +4
3+: +5

That's all. If you started with a +1 Furyborn AoMF, it would look like this:

1: +1
2: +2
3: +3
4: +4
5+: +5

[HaraldKlak]

While the wording of the ability is a hard cap of +5 total on the item, in my opinon it makes it next to useless.

As a +2 equivalent bonus, it might be worth it if it could give a +5 increase on top of the existing bonus. In that situation, it would work well against difficult enemies, but slightly below in other circumstances.

That said, it might be good that it doesn't see use, given that it requires the player to recalculate bonusses each and every round.

[Shfish]

Furyborn is really intended for the +1 weapon, not the +3 weapon...since the enchantment costs 2...your better off if it was +3 to go +5.

For an AoMF if you really want to pull off some nice combos and still want the +5 cost...go Holy+Furyborn+Bane (vs normal type you face the most). With the way Bane works you would get a +7 vs your main target if the bane works and often the holy will apply. Up side is this also then makes your weapon epic.

[aboniks]

Thanks everybody. :)

The player building this thing actually wants an AoMF (+0) with Furyborn and Heartseeker, which fits with his character and situations the party is dealing with pretty well. He expressed his intent to give the AoMF an enhancement bonus later.

I just needed to make sure I was doing the math right for him, given all the semantic qualifiers of Furyborn, AoMF, and basic enhancement stacking.

It was one of those situations where I was happy to stick to RAW, but I just couldn't figure out what the RAW was actually telling me.

Cheers

[Shfish]

As a player and a GM I would strongly discourage an amulet person from putting a bonus on it if they are using Furyborn.

[aboniks]

Shfish wrote:

As a player and a GM I would strongly discourage an amulet person from putting a bonus on it if they are using Furyborn.

At this point I agree, and I'll do just that.

[Shfish]

Are you typically fighting evil things? Outsiders?

My normal approach to the amulet is
Furyborn or Holy first, then the other next.
Bane for the most commonly seen enemy we are likely to face that are a real threat. If its too spread out, then Fury+holy.

[aboniks]

Shfish wrote:

Are you typically fighting evil things? Outsiders

Not really. It's a desert setting; most of the action is urban with with the occasional dip into caverns and such for some Underdark flavor. It's very Al Qadim, so far. The players are driving the direction of the story with RP interactions, backstory elements they were particularly fond of, and sidebar plots. More sandbox (npi) than rails-to-BBEG. There's a gladitorial arena that they seem to be quite fond of entering. Lots of nighttime action and skulking about.

The players and the setting are more CN/N/CG than anything else.