So I'm wondering if anybody has ever tried to make a Kitsune build that effectively uses their magical tail feat. I'd think sorcerer would be best (so as to maximize enchantment DCs). I'm wondering about other things as well, such as best bloodline (cause bonus feats will have to pick up the slack!). Any ideas?
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Ehh...It's difficult to do, and sadly not optimal. Believe me, I've tried. I actually created TWO racial archtype for Kitsune that try to make the magical tail feats viable; the Nogetsune sorcerer archtype and the Kami no Tsukai Oracle archetype. Both are based loosely on the Nogetsune and Inari Kitsune of Japanese lore, respectively, and both are a WIP. If you would be interested in them I can PM them to you but they are VERY BETA and I hope that when I balance them more and make their final versions they'll be publishing-worthy, along with some of my other custom archetypes.
As for doing it in-game, Sorc would be ok, but have you considered bard as well? They also use cha, and Kitsune bards can be very, very fun. Bards are also very open with what they can take feat wise, and can be build in many different, unique ways....so it could work. Either would be good, though, and the sorc will most likely have better spellcasting but at the same time a bard would benefit from having the extra spells from the tails as it would give them something else to do in-between rounds of casting...
I'm considering sorc, but honestly anything will do. I'm just trying to fins a way to build a "kitsune working to earn it's 9 tails" character.
I guess the main reason I chose sorcerer is that the favored class bonus could be very significant, and high-power spellcasters can GENERALLY afford to put their feats to less things (since they've got spells).
Interested in your racial archetypes, but since I've no real time to test them...
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Yeah, and they are still BETA so they are hardly in playtestestable form yet. I actually have quite a bit of Kitsune content that in addition to those two racial archetypes which includes racial spells, fluff detail and an alternate class for the cleric based around the idea of dark/shadow Kitsune who supplicate themselves to evil forces(In particular the Amatsu-Mikaboshi, but you can sub any dark Asian-themed deity in for this, really. If using Golarion any of the evil Tian deities or even a very powerful evil Kami would suffice.) in exchange for twisted powers. The latter doesn't get the standard magic tail feats but does actually gain more tails and other visual aesthetics(such as their fur turning black) that come with their own benefits.
Magical Tail's spell-like abilities totally give me a Rakshasa vibe.
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Yeah, but that can get a tad MAD. However, it does have potentinal. If you're into the melee route and want something a bit more -asian- in fluff a Ninja may be interesting. Ninja already get bonuses from cha, so there is synergy there. In addition, if your DM is not adverse to 3rd party and the idea of "honor" then the Kuge samurai archtype from Rite publishing turns the samurai into a cha-using 6+ int skill points socialite who still maintains his some of his melee ability. Using that class you get to make a melee samurai warrior who makes full use of his cha, and thus have good DCs for magic tail. Kuge is a very, very fun archtype but, be warned, it uses both an "honor" system AND leadership, so it may be a tough sell depending on the DM.
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I made a build with all 9 tails using ninja. Use all level up feats on the tails (and Realistic Likeness) and spend all your Ninja Tricks/Rogue Talents on what you would normally need feats for (Weapon Finesse, TWF, etc). You then focus on Dex/Cha and are pretty well off in most situations.
You aren't going to complete all 9 tails until level 15 at the earliest with any build that I can think of (17 if you choose to take Realistic Likeness at level 1 like I would) unless you use Hero Point rules and choose to be an Antihero and get the extra feat at level 1, so be prepared for the long haul with a build like this.
Cool stuff discardio. I will admit this is me messing around, no real build prepped.
Hm... If anybody asks for this in my games, I might make it "cheaper", IE reduce it to 2-3 feats that each scale according to HD.
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I tried to make it work when helping my wife create a character but it's just too feat intensive to manage below the mid teens (when at least a lot of our campaigns are close to ending). I think Rogue or Ninja has the quickest way to it as Discardo says, but the quicker you go the worse your character ends up being in any other way as you lack even basic feats.
If I was GMing it I'd probably reduce the feat cost as well, it's hardly an amazing list until the end. Off the top of my head, maybe 1/2 as the 1st feat, 3/4 as the second, 5/6 as the third and keeping 7 and 8 as both one feat each. That would mean if you put all your 1-9 feats from character level into it you'd have them all by 9th level which ends up giving you most of the spells close to around the point that casters get them, Dominate Person is a level early but I think that's acceptable.
i never played it, but i built one as a thought experiment. i actually did it as a fighter... i know that sounds kind of crazy but it does solve the 'costs all your feats' issue. he actually looked like he should work pretty well, eventually. he was a lighthearted prankster who's focus was really on supporting another melee guy...
i don't have the build with me but it was something like this:
CG kitsune, lore warden
str 8 (10-race); dex 18(16+race); con 14;
int 10; wis 12; cha 15 (13+race)
traits: reactionary, dangerously curious
skills: acrobatics (cc), knowledge[arcana], spellcraft, UMD (all max ranks)
1- magical tail; f1- weapon finesse
f2- 2WF; bonus- combat expertise
3- magical tail
f4- butterfly's sting (+1 dex)
5- magical tail
f6- imp 2WF
7- swift kitsune shapechanger
f8- imp crit [kukri] (+1 dex)
9- magical tail
f10- piranha strike
11- vulpine pounce
f12- gtr 2WF (+1 dex)
13- magical tail
f14- wf [kukri]
15- magical tail
f16- arcane strike (+1 dex)
17- magical tail
f18- gtr wf [kukri]
19- magical tail
f20- wpn spec [kukri]
he's really best suited to play with a 2H melee (preferably with an axe/hammer or tetsubo) or a magus... he brings butterfly's sting online as early as possible, which allows him to pass crits to them (and he should go a lot of crits dual wielding kukris). 1-3 levels he hits pretty reliably but does terrible damage (and wouldn't be afraid to 'aid other' when it seemed helpful), starting at 4th he's all about crit chasing/passing; by high levels if you can get agile on his weapons he'll do pretty decent damage on his own too. if you don't want to count on having another melee with you you could move up some of the hit/damage feats and delay butterfly's sting (though he's obviously less effective that way).
it's not super optimized but between UMD and all the SLAs he has way more options than a standard fighter, and he's definitely good for a party's DPR...
That's definitly the most competent full magical tail build yet. I had though about using fighter, but the conclusion I always came to was "I'll never be able to justify such low wis". Still, his DCs would be decent if not exceptional. Think I'll try my own build soon.
I did it with a fighter, using all the character's general feats, and still having enough fighter bonus feats left over to be a hell of a contender.
Looks like fighter's the way to go. I want to try as sorcerer as well, but it will make on hell of a fragile sorcerer. Here's what I'm thinking:
Race: Kitsune
Class: Sorcerer (sylvan bloodline)
Stats (25 pts):
Str: 8 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha: 19
Favored class bonus: full-blast on enchantment
Feats:
1 Realistic Likeness
2
3 Magical Tail
4
5 Magical Tail
6
7 Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes
8
9 Magical tail
10
11 magical tail
12
13 magical tail, quicken spell
14
15 magical tail
16
17 Magical tail, improved initiative
18
19 Magical tail
The animal companion will help avoid SOME of the weaknesses (though not all) and that's the best I believe can be gotten from a sorcerer.
Edit: @ BBT`: While I do not deny the hilarity of a 8-tailed human, I believe the feat cost would have the same problems.
You could do this with Racial Heritage too.
racial heritage ends up being a wash feat wise (spend your bonus feat on racial heritage); it does let you avoid the penalty to str but you miss out on vulpine pounce which is a really nice feat. (plus then you only get the 8 tails from the feats, you can never get your 9th tail...)
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The sorc build looks good but I have one recommendation. Swap Realistic Likeness for Boon Companion. An animal companion at your level -3 usually isn't worth it. If you're going sorc, forget disguise as you'll need the handle animal skill if you want your companion to be useful and you don't get a lot of skills. Personally, I'd take less wis, dump strength to 8(you can stand 7 str as a fullcaster) and get int to 14 as you NEED handle animal. Other then that, the build looks good.
my biggest issue with doing this as a sorc is that you seem to gain so little... you're basing your bloodline and bonus feats on trying to make up for the huge investment of pouring all your feats into magical tail and in exchange you gain a handful of SLAs that you could just cast as spells anyways. correct me if i'm wrong but i think every single spell from magical tail is on the wiz/sorc list and you can learn them (usually) quite a few levels earlier than you get the feat. plus the DC for the SLAs won't gain bonuses from spell focus or FCB will it?
i think for a sorc you're better off taking the fey or infernal bloodline, spend your feats on spell focus and what not, take the racial FCB and just enchant the heck out of everything; its less of an investment to take those abilities as spells known than it would be to take all the feats (and if you really want all the tails ask your GM if you can get an extra one each time you learn one of the spells of that list- shouldn't be an issue, its purely aesthetic anyway).
I'm actually running one through PFS right now. I'm running it as a gunslinger (musketteer)/fighter/divine hunter paladin build. I use the bonus feats to get the core ranged feats (rapid reload, point blank, precise shot, deadly aim, rapid shot). She works quite well in mods that emphasize diplomacy and/or deception, though she was rather lacking in damage until I hit 7th recently.
1. Musketeer. Kitsune Tail, Gunsmithing, Rapid Reload
2. Divine Hunter Paladin. Precise Shot
3. Musketeer. Kitsune Tail
4. Musketeer
5. Musketeer. Kitsune Tail. Point Blank Shot
6. Musketeer.
7. Fighter. Kitsune Tail. Deadly Aim
8. Fighter. Rapid Shot
9. Divine Hunter Paladin. Kitsune Tail
For Levels 10 and 11, I haven't decided if I want 2 more levels in Musketeer, or take advantage of the decent charisma and go ninja with vanishing trick.
Eahg... I dont really want to abandon realistic likeness. Maybe another bloodline? As for boon companion, I would be a robe of arcane heritage ASAP (which will compensate).
Agh. I really liked the idea of an enchantress kitsune that worked to get their 9 tails.
Yeah, then really, you'd like my Nogetsune archtype for sorcerers. In fact, if you want the BETA version I would be happy to PM it to you. It's still very WIP, though, so take it for what you will.
Sure, might as well. Cant be worse than what I'm doing! Sigh...
Personally, I usually just ask for GM permission to have my kitsune's number of tails be based on his highest level castable spell. Sure, it is just for show and a houserule at that point, but it works.
. . . I'd probably reduce the feat cost as well, it's hardly an amazing list until the end. Off the top of my head, maybe 1/2 as the 1st feat, 3/4 as the second, 5/6 as the third and keeping 7 and 8 as both one feat each. That would mean if you put all your 1-9 feats from character level into it you'd have them all by 9th level which ends up giving you most of the spells close to around the point that casters get them, Dominate Person is a level early but I think that's acceptable.
I am mostly in agreement, as the first two uses get you level 1 spells and the second two uses get you level 2 spells and such. Getting level 1 SLAs at first, level 2 SLAs at level three, Level 3 SLAs at 5... they are chosen for you and have limited uses. It's fair.
The tail feats are easiest to take on a caster, as they have far fewer necessary feats. Unfortunately casters can already perform the magics the tails provide, and are least served by the versatility compared to a martial.