Question about playable genders in pfs

[Knight who says Meh]

Can I still say Sisyphean? It’s one of my favorite references.

[Lucy_Valentine]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Stories of Hercules are hardly obscure to anyone, much less fantasy geeks. (In a time long ago, a land of myth and legend...)

Not everyone is from the same cultural background, and pushing for univeralism of our own cultural references is not particularly a good thing to do.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I see no reason at all why dumbing down ones vocabulary is a desirable aim

Because it makes communication with people from different cultural backgrounds easier. Making it hard for people to converse with you is only desirable if you want to create barriers to communication.

It also has the advantage of meaning our language isn't full of IC-nonsensical references when we're playing RPGs.

[quibblemuch]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Not everyone is from the same cultural background, and pushing for univeralism of our own cultural references is not particularly a good thing to do.

Because it makes communication with people from different cultural backgrounds easier. Making it hard for people to converse with you is only desirable if you want to create barriers to communication.

This sounds very well-intentioned.

But the end result is to increase inter-cultural ignorance. If we achieve this ideal, then I will never be able to be at a gaming table, have someone say "Well this looks like a Pandavas v. Kauravas type situation" or "It's that whole East Coast/West Coast feud" and learn something new.

Taken to its conclusion, it locks each of us in a tiny room of our own personal collection of references, while allowing only for the simplest and most alienating forms of communication with others, for fear that we might not be understood and, by not being understood, offend or commit an offense.

Again, I believe the intention is good. But I've seen what happens when people stop trying and stop sharing and stop learning from one another. And it is worse than blank stares or feeling left out.

What you are suggesting uses the value of cultural diversity to create a monoculture of communication from the thinnest Venn diagram of linguistic overlap--instead of embracing the fact that diversity will lead to references not understood and finding opportunities therein.

[quibblemuch]

Knight who says Meh wrote:

Can I still say Sisyphean? It’s one of my favorite references.

I insisyph.

I'll show myself out...

[BigNorseWolf]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Not everyone is from the same cultural background, and pushing for univeralism of our own cultural references is not particularly a good thing to do.

Ahehehem...

NO.

[thejeff]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Stories of Hercules are hardly obscure to anyone, much less fantasy geeks. (In a time long ago, a land of myth and legend...)

Not everyone is from the same cultural background, and pushing for univeralism of our own cultural references is not particularly a good thing to do.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I see no reason at all why dumbing down ones vocabulary is a desirable aim

Because it makes communication with people from different cultural backgrounds easier. Making it hard for people to converse with you is only desirable if you want to create barriers to communication.

It also has the advantage of meaning our language isn't full of IC-nonsensical references when we're playing RPGs.

Well, herculean is practically a word, not a reference.

And there are plenty of other references that are even more so. We can't strip them all out of the language when we're roleplaying. Many of them we don't even recognize.
Lesbian and sapphic have been talked about before. I mentioned paladin earlier.

I bet there aren't any atlases in Golarion either. No chronicles or chronology.

[Cypher Starchild]

Ignoring some of the other stuff, one of my favorite characters is this one, Cypher Starchild, Enchanter and diplomancer supreme. They are a genderfluid character, who uses a hat of disguise (And eventually greater hat) and a absurd +26 diplomacy at level 3 to seduce everyone, and I mean EVERYONE. They explicitly state that one of the reasons for their devotion to Aresha is the freedom from gender restraints, and eventually even bodily restraints. Cypher is a blast to play, and I've had my teammates rolling in laughter in more than one occasion when Cypher managed to seduce their way into a solution much to the confusion of everyone involved.

[Shamus Woodgear]

Cypher Starchild wrote:

Ignoring some of the other stuff, one of my favorite characters is this one, Cypher Starchild, Enchanter and diplomancer supreme. They are a genderfluid character, who uses a hat of disguise (And eventually greater hat) and a absurd +26 diplomacy at level 3 to seduce everyone, and I mean EVERYONE. They explicitly state that one of the reasons for their devotion to Aresha is the freedom from gender restraints, and eventually even bodily restraints. Cypher is a blast to play, and I've had my teammates rolling in laughter in more than one occasion when Cypher managed to seduce their way into a solution much to the confusion of everyone involved.

Offers a masterwork paracountess bingo board game with a carved ivory stamp

[RealAlchemy]

Cypher Starchild wrote:

Ignoring some of the other stuff, one of my favorite characters is this one, Cypher Starchild, Enchanter and diplomancer supreme. They are a genderfluid character, who uses a hat of disguise (And eventually greater hat) and a absurd +26 diplomacy at level 3 to seduce everyone, and I mean EVERYONE. They explicitly state that one of the reasons for their devotion to Aresha is the freedom from gender restraints, and eventually even bodily restraints. Cypher is a blast to play, and I've had my teammates rolling in laughter in more than one occasion when Cypher managed to seduce their way into a solution much to the confusion of everyone involved.

You may want a wand of alter self, because of the limitations of interacting with illusions :)

[quibblemuch]

RealAlchemy wrote:

You may want a wand of alter self, because of the limitations of interacting with illusions :)

God. It'd be like prom all over again...

[Nefreet]

RealAlchemy wrote:

Cypher Starchild wrote:

Ignoring some of the other stuff, one of my favorite characters is this one, Cypher Starchild, Enchanter and diplomancer supreme. They are a genderfluid character, who uses a hat of disguise (And eventually greater hat) and a absurd +26 diplomacy at level 3 to seduce everyone, and I mean EVERYONE. They explicitly state that one of the reasons for their devotion to Aresha is the freedom from gender restraints, and eventually even bodily restraints. Cypher is a blast to play, and I've had my teammates rolling in laughter in more than one occasion when Cypher managed to seduce their way into a solution much to the confusion of everyone involved.

You may want a wand of alter self, because of the limitations of interacting with illusions :)

Greater Hat of Disguise isn't illusory.

[Niemand]

so this is something you keep under your hat?

[My Life Is In Ruins]

as there are magic items to change a creature's sex, one assumes that it is not something a creature can do at will without cost (for free).

Sex is referenced in the CRB, pages; 509(Deck of Illusions). Gender appears on p 25(half-orc), 95(Disguise skill, -2), 169(height & weight).

Sequential hermaphroditism isn't addressed in the Bestiary. Sex is referenced in Bestiary 1, pages; 8(Angel, sexless), 12(Solar), 112(Drider, dimorphic), 164(Gorgon, appear identical).

So I'd have to say the game takes a very simple view of the topic.

A creature can use Disguise skill to appear differently. That's inexpensive.

Cultural roles are up to the GM. GM's create the setting or world (Golarion is one such setting) and that contains many descriptive elements.

A creature that could change sex should have a subtype of shapechanger or the GM can make up a term for Sex change and add it to a creature's type description.

[Nefreet]

You cannot change in the middle of a game.

But you are explicitly allowed to change between adventures.

[Nefreet]

EDIT: I can't find the ruling in the current Guide or FAQ, but John Compton made this ruling back in 2014. I believe there is another more recent ruling that explains the details further.

[My Life Is In Ruins]

My Life Is In Ruins wrote:

...{general chat about Pathfinder}

ahhh... In PFS it is covered under "reskinning". (Nefreet gave a post from 2014). Makes sense.

It's not in the FAQs... update? please?

[Nefreet]

But I do believe it was more formally detailed elsewhere more recently. Maybe in a previous Guide, and it just became a victim of the reduction in word count.

[Nefreet]

I always find it hilarious when two posters are responding to and deleting/editing their comments to reflect each other at the same time.

[Curaigh]

quibblemuch wrote:

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Not everyone is from the same cultural background, and pushing for univeralism of our own cultural references is not particularly a good thing to do.

Because it makes communication with people from different cultural backgrounds easier. Making it hard for people to converse with you is only desirable if you want to create barriers to communication.

This sounds very well-intentioned.

But the end result is to increase inter-cultural ignorance. If we achieve this ideal, then I will never be able to be at a gaming table, have someone say "Well this looks like a Pandavas v. Kauravas type situation" or "It's that whole East Coast/West Coast feud" and learn something new.

Taken to its conclusion, it locks each of us in a tiny room of our own personal collection of references, while allowing only for the simplest and most alienating forms of communication with others, for fear that we might not be understood and, by not being understood, offend or commit an offense.

Again, I believe the intention is good. But I've seen what happens when people stop trying and stop sharing and stop learning from one another. And it is worse than blank stares or feeling left out.

What you are suggesting uses the value of cultural diversity to create a monoculture of communication from the thinnest Venn diagram of linguistic overlap--instead of embracing the fact that diversity will lead to references not understood and finding opportunities therein.

Juliet, on her balcony.

Iphegenia, by the sea.
Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra.
Sokath, his eyes opened!
Quibblemuch and Lucy Valentine when the threads necro-ed.

[Semantic Deity]

Shaka, when the walls fell

[Pirate Rob]

Nefreet wrote:

Greater Hat of Disguise[/I] isn't illusory.

I'm not sure that's true, the item comes with an illusion aura rather than transmutation, despite the spell it's based on.

[Nefreet]

It casts alter self, which is not an illusion.

[Blindmage]

Semantic Deity wrote:

Shaka, when the walls fell

Zinda, his face black, his eyes red

[Semantic Deity]

Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.

[Rei]

Would be cool if we finally ditched that rule about Disguise checks being harder if disguising as a different gender...

[Wei Ji the Learner]

...or would that just mean 'Buy Masterwork clothes for each gender one wishes to dress as?' as a mitigator?

Alternatively, what if folks do the Victor, Victoria approach to clothing? If a person is wearing a disguise that's not really a disguise...

...who can account for fashion?

[BigNorseWolf]

Minna Hiltula wrote:

Would be cool if we finally ditched that rule about Disguise checks being harder if disguising as a different gender...

Is that because the language has changed in 20 something years since it was originally written or....?

I know that sex is the preferred term for what it means but to the general public that means intercourse.

[Nefreet]

Sex is biological.
Gender is psychological.
Orientation is a mix of both.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Nefreet wrote:

Sex is biological.

Gender is psychological.
Orientation is a mix of both.

...and it gets more complex from there.

[thaX]

Nefreet wrote:

Sex is biological.

Gender is psychological.
Orientation is a mix of both.

Sex is...???

I thought sex was action, myself, the act of...

Maybe it is just me.

[TriOmegaZero]

Sex in medical terminology refers to what reproductive organs you have.

[Warwick Cailean]

Semantic Deity wrote:

Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.

Cayden Cailean at the Starstone on a bender.

[Rei]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Minna Hiltula wrote:

Would be cool if we finally ditched that rule about Disguise checks being harder if disguising as a different gender...

Is that because the language has changed in 20 something years since it was originally written or....?

I know that sex is the preferred term for what it means but to the general public that means intercourse.

Using the definition of gender as a social construct, saying "it's harder to disguise yourself as a different gender" feels to me too much like it's suggesting that genders look and/or act a specific way and you need to "pass" as that gender.

[BigNorseWolf]

Minna Hiltula wrote:

Using the definition of gender as a social construct

Thats the problem when you try to read something not written in technical language of a particular field as if it were written in the technical language of a field.

[Rei]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Minna Hiltula wrote:

Using the definition of gender as a social construct

Thats the problem when you try to read something not written in technical language of a particular field as if it were written in the technical language of a field.

How would you suggest I phrase this, then?

[thejeff]

Minna Hiltula wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Minna Hiltula wrote:

Using the definition of gender as a social construct

Thats the problem when you try to read something not written in technical language of a particular field as if it were written in the technical language of a field.

How would you suggest I phrase this, then?

I don't think you can rephrase your objection. The problem is that the rule was not written using the definition of gender as a social construction and thus was not intended to mean anything like that.

Read the rule as it was meant and it makes sense. If a change is needed, it would be rephrasing the rule, not actual mechanics.

[My Life Is In Ruins]

it's a game and is interpreted into the social norms of the group playing the game. The rules are written in conversational english often with colorful descriptive language and illustrations fitting the context of the game. In a legal sense it is a work of art (fiction).

PFS is a public relations effort on behalf of Paizo publishing.

Sure, people are going to want it to mean one thing or another. RAI is a tricky thing.

[*Thelith]

Minna Hiltula wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Minna Hiltula wrote:

Would be cool if we finally ditched that rule about Disguise checks being harder if disguising as a different gender...

Is that because the language has changed in 20 something years since it was originally written or....?

I know that sex is the preferred term for what it means but to the general public that means intercourse.

Using the definition of gender as a social construct, saying "it's harder to disguise yourself as a different gender" feels to me too much like it's suggesting that genders look and/or act a specific way and you need to "pass" as that gender.

Lets remember that this is a game with races that don't exist, in the game there is the assumption that males and females look differently. Simply put, I have a beard, it would be hard for me to disguise myself as female. And that is why there is a penalty on disguise. It is simply a game mechanic. Let's not read anymore in to it.

[thejeff]

*Thelith wrote:

Minna Hiltula wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Minna Hiltula wrote:

Would be cool if we finally ditched that rule about Disguise checks being harder if disguising as a different gender...

Is that because the language has changed in 20 something years since it was originally written or....?

I know that sex is the preferred term for what it means but to the general public that means intercourse.

Using the definition of gender as a social construct, saying "it's harder to disguise yourself as a different gender" feels to me too much like it's suggesting that genders look and/or act a specific way and you need to "pass" as that gender.

Lets remember that this is a game with races that don't exist, in the game there is the assumption that males and females look differently. Simply put, I have a beard, it would be hard for me to disguise myself as female. And that is why there is a penalty on disguise. It is simply a game mechanic. Let's not read anymore in to it.

Though it does seem a bit odd to me that the penalty is the same for a different race as for a different gender.

Male elf -> female elf: -2
Male elf -> male dwarf: -2

[Sara Marie]

Necromancing a 4 year old thread on gender is not likely to end well and I've gone ahead and locked it. Additionally, discussion on sex, gender and sexuality are issues that many in our community feel passionate about. Before starting or commenting on threads involving these, I recommend reading and doing some basic research on terms or subjects you are unfamiliar with; for example the correct term is "intersex" and not "hermaphrodite".