| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
As a warning to all readers : to those who dont know me, I am a part-time optimizer. I like testing the numerical limits of the game. So to any who would want to play this, I warn you, your GM may try to kill you afterwards.
So! I’ve heard a bit of talk lately about the “oradin”, a very efficient multiclass of paladin & oracle (generally 2/18 or 4/16) that has tremendous charisma synergy, making an exceedingly tough oracle. I believe I have found an incredible combo that allows an incredibly tough caster/frontliner, with possibly the best charisma synergy in the game. I call it the high oradin of Arshea, and it is a paladin 2/oracle 8/mystery cultist 10. This CHA-racter (hehe) will want the highest CHA possible.
First, what is an oradin? This combo of oracle & paladin takes advantage of 4things:
1) Divine favor: this paladin ability allows you to get a bonus to saves equal to your charisma bonus.
2) Natures whispers/sidestep secret/prophetic armor: Replace DEX with CHA for the purpose of AC. AWESOME!
3) Smite evil: While you wont have much of this (max 2/day with items), it does give you a to-hit bonus equal to cha & a deflection bonus from cha. Since they are different types of bonuses (DEX & deflection), the ac stacks. GREAT for thos tough foes.
4) Still decent casting: you can get up to level 9 spells. Not quite as nice for this build, but still.
These 3 things give the oradin the best CHA synergy in the game. You’re getting a bit of everything from charisma. There are various feats that can boost this synergy even more:
1) Noble scion (war): CHA to initiative!
2) Radiant charge: Give you a damage bonus equal to CHA on a charge. You need to spend a “lay on hands” (LOH), but since it scales with CHA
3) Reward of life: If you LOH on others, you heal as much as you cha bonus. This will quickly end up being more that your LOH will ever heal (since you don’t have many paladin levels).
So, what is a mystery cultist? It’s a prestige class from “chronicles of the righteous” that allows early acces to celestial obediences, special powers gained from long observance of rituals towards “empyreal lords”. The mystery cultist is interesting for a few reasons:
1) Early acces to obediences: great in any game. The obediences normally kick in late (12/16/20), so early access is appreciated.
2) Charisma boost: you can get a +4 sacred bonus to charisma for a number of rounds per day equal to your level. Always great for a charisma centric character.
3) Great SLAs: heal 1/day? Summon monster VI & VII with awesome good monsters? Not something I would refuse.
4) Flavor: bunch of fun flavor stuff. No mechanical importance, but it’s fun.
So, even more charisma synergy. So any empyreal lord for obediences would be good right? In theory, yes. But there is ONE that stands out: Arshea, spirit of abandon, empyreal lord of freedom, sexuality, and physical beauty. What’s so special about her?
1) Her obedience is SUPER simple. You need to achieve “release”. No muss, no fuss, no need to do something complicated.
2) FLAWLESS FORM: Gain an armor bonus equal to your charisma modifier whenever you wear revealing clothing & no armor.
So now, as long as you follow your obediences, you’ve got you charisma going to AC TWICE. THREE TIMES during a smite.
So you can understand why this build is so special. It MAXIMIZES the use of charisma. What do you end up with?
-Cha to AC (armor, dex, possibly deflection), Cha to initiative, Cha to attack, damage & healing (sometimes) & Cha to saves (which become insanely high).
-3/4 bab
-casting as a level 17 oracle: not ideal, but still very good. Magical knack (the trait) is important to keep you caster level up.
All this is nice, so let’s see it in practice.
So, to demonstrate the power, here is a basic build.
Race: Tiefling (demon-spawn)
Why tiefling? Any race that boosts cha can do, but the tiefling has an interesting variant (in “appearance”): it can be hermaphroditic. Since Arshea is effectively androgynous, I though this would fit thematically. Other races might work better, I will gladly hear your proposals. (aasimar is too obvious)
Stats (25 pt buy)
Str: 16 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 10 Cha: 20
Traits: Fate’s favored, Magical Knack (oracle)
Class: Paladin 2/Oracle 8 (nature mystery)/Mystery cultist
Paladin:
1 Noble scion (war)
2
Oracle:
3 Celestial obedience, Revelation (nature’s whispers)
4 Revelation ( Natural divination), +1 cha
5 Power attack
6
7 furious focus
Mystery cultist
8
9 Reward of life
10 Celestial boon 1,
11 Radiant charge
12 +1 cha
13 Weapon Focus (nodachi), Celestial boon 2
14
15 Dazzling display
16 Celestial Boon 3, +1 cha
17 Feat=?
Oracle:
18
19 Feat=?, Revelation (transcendental bond)
20 +1 cha
Priorities: Cha>Str>Con>Wis=Dex>Int; obviously, maximize Cha. Str is just easier to deal with attack-wise, bluss there are great clerical strength-buff spells (frightful presence anyone?). The rest is just to cover blind spots, but it isn’t priorities. However, you do still need at least 10 skill points by level 7 to make this work (3 in k(planes) for celestial obedience, 7 in k(religion) for mystery cultist) so don’t dump it TOO much.
Tomorrow I will post a few thins to show it’s numbers. The first is a level 13 build as presented here. The other will be a full, level 20, Mythic rank 10 build to show how silly it can be.
I have. Got a bunch of info from it. If you notice I've missed any of the "Cha to X things" that would be accessible, I'd love to know.
My advice would be to cut the Paladin levels and replace with Bestow Grace of the Champion. That's what I do anyway, though I do have unlimited castings of it that cost me no actions. I had not seen that mystery cultist though... hrm... thank you for posting this. Nereid's Grace is another way to get CHA as a deflection bonus to AC in no armor or when your armor is not visible, though this is restricted to Undines.
How do you cast "Bestow grace of the champion" so much? It's still a very high level spell, and I judge that the cha to saves bonus will be very necessary.
Bestow grace of the champion can be nice for extra smites though.
I think I could easily reccomend a ring of spell knowledge (of nereid's grace). I do admit however that the low duration is unnatractive. But it is a mere level 2 spell with the ring.
Note: I've been working on the mythic version... and I've got to say it is just OBSCENE. Obscene. Still, I do believe that I have created a quasi-deity, that I will now use in all my homebrewed worlds. Even got a big backstory.
A question though:
With divine source, would an oracle gain access to those domain spells? Or would the be limited to SLA-castings (1 per spell level per day)?
A ring of spell knowledge only works for spontaneous arcane casters.
Ah, I always forget that. Well, this is inconvenient. But it does make nereids grace basically useless. The spell would never last long enough.
Ok, so I've FINALLY finished the level 13 build. I MIGHT put the mythic one, bu the numbers are so obscene that I'm not tempted. This creature could SOLO CTHULU. No trouble. It makes all the saves as long as it doesnt crit-fail, and the same for most hits. It's own "glorious aura" has a 50/50 chance of affecting it. It's just SILLY. And all that is without considering short term buffs (like divine power... which could easily be quickened). Anyway, here's the more sane one:
I really wish there was a way for it to learn "heroism" though. Sigh.
Eh, elf just doesnt work for this... Half-elf maybe. But it would delay mystery cultist entry.
Vampire Succubus Anti-Oradin? (For charisma on hitpoints and a lot of charisma.)
Even if that was permissible for players (which it never would be), undead (like vampires) can only have evil alignements... So no oradin.
@MOTDT: Mystery cultist is to gain sacred cha-boosting, early access to the obediences, and some cool stuf.
I'm not up to speed with the whole Oradin build. I never got beyond: A Vampire Succubus with 2 antipaladin levels would be a nasty opponent.
No denying that it would be. But I'm still working on vaguely PC related stuff.
How are you getting 9th level spells? 8 levels of oracle and 10 levels of mystery cultist is 17 total spellcaster levels, and oracles don't get 9th level spells until 18.
I do not get 9th level spells. As I said earlier, I cast as a 17th level oracle, the level is 8. If I claimed 9th level, I must have made a mistake. It's a limit I'm well aware of.
Note: an Oradin (paladin 2/oracle 18) does get level 9 stuff though. That might have caused confusion.
Aasimar or half-elf Lunar oracle with animal companion and boon companion might work as well. FCB your animal companion to higher levels and combine it with boon companion, should keep up with level then.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok, so I've FINALLY finished the level 13 build. I MIGHT put the mythic one, bu the numbers are so obscene that I'm not tempted. This creature could SOLO CTHULU. No trouble. It makes all the saves as long as it doesnt crit-fail, and the same for most hits. It's own "glorious aura" has a 50/50 chance of affecting it. It's just SILLY. And all that is without considering short term buffs (like divine power... which could easily be quickened). Anyway, here's the more sane one:
I really wish there was a way for it to learn "heroism" though. Sigh.
I'm going to second the Lunar Oracle suggestion and also suggest you go Dual-Cursed (you get a free mystery why not?). Having a crazy high AC is great. Making someone who rolls a natural 20, reroll with Misfortune is fantastic. I'd also switch to Half-Elf for Paragon Surge (I mean why not?) and replace Weapon Focus (Nodachi) with Eldritch Heritage Arcane (+4 Initiative with a Greensting Scorpion) (you Skill Focus as a half-elf so you're good), so you can start using utility Wizard/Sorcerer spells (like say... Heroism!) as well as having access to your whole list. I'd also probably drop Blessed (Story) for Craft Wondrous Item, since you can get constant Protection from evil for 4,500 gp (or 2,250 gp if you take CWI) with a Wayfinder and a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone. Almost all your gear is wondrous items... so this would free up a lot of gold. You will lose Barkskin if you go Dual-Cursed (or Lunar), but the AC can be increased through other means.
Needs more Osyluth Guile
It could be useful... but the AC is already so silly high that it would be meaningless. Plus, this creature is STARVED for skill ranks. I'm acknoledging it as useful, but it's largely unnecessary (I think). Still, it would allow AC 53 against a smite target lets say.
I do not get 9th level spells. As I said earlier, I cast as a 17th level oracle, the level is 8. If I claimed 9th level, I must have made a mistake. It's a limit I'm well aware of.If you're using ISM, then you can join one of the guilds and get the Eclectic/Esoteric Training boosts. That should push you over the line to 18th (20th if you can get the Fame 35 one).
I thought about that, but it's such a corner case (I've never heard of it actually being allowed in-game) that I didnt consider it.
As for custom items... I just realised, a ring of "nereid's grace" would be a mere 8000 gp... But yeah, this is one of those things that should not be allowed.
What curse is least impactful to your build?
As far as I can tell, the least impactful are "law" (it fits with paladin well) and "haunted" (since this guy is weapon-based, and haunted only really affects consumables).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Law? Which one is that?
"legalistic", sorry.
Ahh...must be one in a book I don't have.
Ok, so I've FINALLY finished the level 13 build. I MIGHT put the mythic one, bu the numbers are so obscene that I'm not tempted. This creature could SOLO CTHULU. No trouble. It makes all the saves as long as it doesnt crit-fail, and the same for most hits. It's own "glorious aura" has a 50/50 chance of affecting it. It's just SILLY. And all that is without considering short term buffs (like divine power... which could easily be quickened). Anyway, here's the more sane one:
I really wish there was a way for it to learn "heroism" though. Sigh.
Where is the character getting the +5 Courageous Holy Adamantine nodachi from in the Melee attack line up? (I'm guessing a missed edit from your 20th level build, as there is no Divine Bond in this version?) And on the equipment line it has "mwk nodachi (celestial mithral, adamantine, cold iron)," the character is carrying one of each?
Ah, yes, it would in fact be MWK nodachis (kept in shape with GMW). Edititng problems... But it's final weapon would be a +5 courageous holy adamatine nodachi...
wait - you used the "X to Y" thread/guide and didn't tell me about mystery cultist?
I'm disappointed :-(
wait - you used the "X to Y" thread/guide and didn't tell me about mystery cultist?
I'm disappointed :-(
Sorry bigtuna; I originally used you guide a while back. The mystery cultist PER SE does not allow you to do much. More specifically, it's the "celestial obedience" to the empyreal lord arshea that allows Cha to armor. Anybody with 3 ranks in knowledge planes & level 16 can get it. The only advantage of mystery cultist is that it allows you early access to the power (level 12). Should have indicated it to you though.
Certainly. I would love to test it out myself, but I doubt I'll fin a game willing to accept it.
As for making the sheet, I go by hand. I got the template from Ravingdork's character emporium. I've been using a slightly modified version of it. My main difference with his is that "boosts" provided by items to stats saved are marked (for example, Cha: 20+6 would mean 20 cha with a headband of charisma +6). It's not terribly consistent yet though.
For the template:
A few notes if you decide to go ahead with the character:
1) Be aware of your activated abilities, like smite & spells. With judicious use, you can avoid being overpowered and take the spotlight from others. It also leaves a feather in your cap for those desperate moments.
2) The character does NOT have full wealth according to WBL. You might have to shift a few things around (also, I put the wrong weapon, it should not have a +5 courageous holy nodachi at level 13, mwk will do when combined with the spell "greater magic weapon").
2) The character does NOT have full wealth according to WBL. You might have to shift a few things around (also, I put the wrong weapon, it should not have a +5 courageous holy nodachi at level 13, mwk will do when combined with the spell "greater magic weapon").
You are actually significantly under WBL, was looking at using the character as a BBEG type and two things stood out (beyond the +5 and enhancements). 1) Your headband can't be +6/+2, the stats are the same when doing a headband of mental prowess. 2) Your build assumes a custom magic item for the bracers which ends up costing just under 33k (full price of most expensive, plus 1.5 times the price of the second most expensive function). With those and 1 nodachi each of adamantine, cold iron and mithril your total comes up just over 98k gp (of 185k for a PC). I'd suggest a efficient quiver to carry the weapons around just for quality of life purposes which pushes you to just under 100k as described.
You are actually significantly under WBL, was looking at using the character as a BBEG type and two things stood out (beyond the +5 and enhancements). 1) Your headband can't be +6/+2, the stats are the same when doing a headband of mental prowess. 2) Your build assumes a custom magic item for the bracers which ends up costing just under 33k (full price of most expensive, plus 1.5 times the price of the second most expensive function). With those and 1 nodachi each of adamantine, cold iron and mithril your total comes up just over 98k gp (of 185k for a PC). I'd suggest a efficient quiver to carry the weapons around just for quality of life purposes which pushes you to just under 100k as described.2) The character does NOT have full wealth according to WBL. You might have to shift a few things around (also, I put the wrong weapon, it should not have a +5 courageous holy nodachi at level 13, mwk will do when combined with the spell "greater magic weapon").
BTW, for "combined" items it's 1.5 times the LEAST expensive item, not the most. SO the price goes down a bit. But yeah, I am significantly under WBL. And as for the "custom" aspect, I'm not too bothered by it, since I'm not creating radically new items, just fusing older ones.
The price I posted is correct, though my explanation might not have been as clear as it could be (when having two abilities only, the second most expensive is the least expensive). Was just tossing out that you had the custom item as from my experience on the boards, there seem to be quite a few restrictive GMs. I know I don't really care about them (and neither does our normal GM), but Corerue's might ;)
The price I posted is correct, though my explanation might not have been as clear as it could be (when having two abilities only, the second most expensive is the least expensive). Was just tossing out that you had the custom item as from my experience on the boards, there seem to be quite a few restrictive GMs. I know I don't really care about them (and neither does our normal GM), but Corerue's might ;)
I would generally allow it myself, considering you arent creating anything radically new. Then again, the boards have a lot of restrictive GMs, so yeah...
That's for sure strayshift. This is an experiment for numbers mainly. But it's fun.
I recommend the Oath of Vengeance archetype so you'll have more Smites per day.
I recommend the Oath of Vengeance archetype so you'll have more Smites per day.
The two levels of paladin don't qualify for the posted character, taking the extra levels vs PrC or oracle means lower CL/loss of caster levels on a 20th level build, so not likely to be worth it.
I recommend the Oath of Vengeance archetype so you'll have more Smites per day.The two levels of paladin don't qualify for the posted character, taking the extra levels vs PrC or oracle means lower CL/loss of caster levels on a 20th level build, so not likely to be worth it.
Ah yes. Nevermind then.
I like Oradin builds that go Oracle 4/Paladin X. Of course Mystery Cultist can't make Paladin priority work as well.
I recommend the Oath of Vengeance archetype so you'll have more Smites per day.The two levels of paladin don't qualify for the posted character, taking the extra levels vs PrC or oracle means lower CL/loss of caster levels on a 20th level build, so not likely to be worth it.Ah yes. Nevermind then.
I like Oradin builds that go Oracle 4/Paladin X. Of course Mystery Cultist can't make Paladin priority work as well.
I quite agree. I had indicated it as an option in the beginning, but it does have it's disadvantages. 8th level spells are sweet.
|
The boards also have a lot of DM's who want to see a congruent story or reasoning before they allow apparently dysfunctional characters like Monk/Paladin/Barbarians to run wild over the game world...
Is that such a crime? To want some kind of motivation from their players other than optimisation?
Its a double edged sword though. Because if your the one player who doesn't push forward a neat design during recruitment and get drafted into a party of optimizers then your the one who lags behind. I know because i primarily am not an optimizer but after 2-4 pbps of being the worst guy on the team it gets old...
Besides what's so broken about this design? It falls into perfect use of mechanics and isn't horribly overpowered as it takes several lvls and items to get up to steam.
Its not as bad as some of the stuff i see being allowed on these boards. In fact this is less cheesy and a lot more interesting.
Just my two cents and i understand your opinion but i have rarely seen anyone NOT optimizing their characters as of late. Especially as there are several guides available that allow you to do just that. :/
Apologies as i am getting off topic.
However i really like the the setup of this character as i said before. I see a lot of usefulness in it and despite the parading portion it allows you to play a more free-spirited character somewhat.
This design has made me start looking at other decent combinations to make interesting and useful character setups as i never realized oracles were quite this cool. :)