Does a Lore Warden with Pragmatic Activator get UMD as a class skill? Can he spend his bonus skill points on UMD?

[deuxhero]

Relevant text.

Quote:

You may use your Intelligence modifier when making Use Magic Device checks instead of your Charisma modifier.

Quote:

All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.

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These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills.

[Bigdaddyjug]

I'd say yes.

[Jacob Saltband]

Quote:

Quote:

You may use your Intelligence modifier when making Use Magic Device checks instead of your Charisma modifier.

The way I read this is that it doesnt make UMD a int based skill it just allows you to use your modifier instead of your charisma modifier.

[Jacob Saltband]

Bump.

[blackbloodtroll]

This actually part of a bigger question.

When an ability changes the core attribute used for a skill, does the skill still count as a skill of the original core attribute used, or the new one?

Example:
Conversion Inquisition changes your core attribute used for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate from charisma, to wisdom.
Do they still count as charisma based skills for feats and abilities?

[Nefreet]

Whatever the answer is, it should apply to all instances equally.

I believe the common consensus regarding the Conversion Inquisition is that such an Inquisitor would not benefit from a Circlet of Persuasion.

So, under that premise, yes, a Lore Warden with Pragmatic Activator would treat UMD as a class skill.

For those that disagree, then a Circlet of Persuasion helps the Inquisitor.

[blackbloodtroll]

@Nefreet:

You have the heart of it.

One way or another, it has to apply equally across the board.

[Krinn]

In my games, I had the Circlet of Persuasion help the Inquisitor.
No UMD as class skill with Pragmatic Activator for a Lore Warden in my games. And no bonus skill points on the skill. It still counts for a CHA based skill and the Lore Warden would benefit from a Circlet of Persuasion though.

[James Risner]

deuxhero wrote:

Relevant text.

Quote:

You may use your Intelligence modifier when making Use Magic Device checks instead of your Charisma modifier.

Quote:

All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.

Quote:

These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills.

Yes

Yes
Yes

[HectorVivis]

Does the fact you can use another modifier for a skill makes you consider this same skill changed for other purpose ?

I don't think so, but it's probably a grey area.

[Krinn]

It is a grey area.

However, it makes sense for me that a Circlet of Persuasion helps with Diplomacy, Bluff and the like since you're persuading folks... the fact that you base your skill off wisdom instead of charisma doesn't change that you're still wearing a circlet that's specifically made to persuade other people (and items with UMD).

Either way, a GM can judge one way or the other. I'm thankful that I don't play PFS so either I have a fixed GM or I'm the GM.

[Jacob Saltband]

How does 'you may use you int mod instead of your cha' equate to the skill being changed from a cha based skill to an int based skill?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Jacob Saltband wrote:

How does 'you may use you int mod instead of your cha' equate to the skill being changed from a cha based skill to an int based skill?

Because the skill bonus is now based upon Int instead of Cha?

What makes the Knowledges Int-based skills?

The skill rules don't have any sort of "formal definition" for what "[ability]-based" means.

It just says:

Quote:

Key Ability: The abbreviation of the ability whose modifier applies to the skill check.

Some things really just do come down to basic logic and don't have a specific cite-able RAW answer, sorry.

[Jacob Saltband]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Jacob Saltband wrote:

How does 'you may use you int mod instead of your cha' equate to the skill being changed from a cha based skill to an int based skill?

Because the skill bonus is now based upon Int instead of Cha?

What makes the Knowledges Int-based skills?

The skill rules don't have any sort of "formal definition" for what "[ability]-based" means.

It just says:

Quote:

Key Ability: The abbreviation of the ability whose modifier applies to the skill check.

Some things really just do come down to basic logic and don't have a specific cite-able RAW answer, sorry.

I'd agree with this if it had said 'you use your int mod instead of‘ this seems more basic logic to me. But I could be wrong.

[blackbloodtroll]

To give another example, here is the Charm of Wisdom power of the Conversion Inquisition:

Conversion Inquisition wrote:

Charm of Wisdom (Ex): You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.

This does not have the wording "you may."

[ArmouredMonk13]

I would probably rule that it is Intelligence-based in all accounts, because it is a skill that uses Intelligence as its focus. In PFS that is how I would rule at the table and I wouldn't let a PC with a circlet of persuasion to apply it in PFS, and in a home game unless a PC made a good case of the circlet of persuasion working or the skill being still Cha-based due to character concept I'd do the same. Only reason it is different for PFS is I try to keep all rulings there consistent so people don't accuse me of favoritism.

Reason as far as RP is that you aren't actually using your personality force or personal magical aptitude to make the the UMD'd device work, you are using your intelligence to logically conclude how it should work, and the reason you can still fail is that each time it is used it changes slightly due to different craftsmanship/charges left.

Reason as far as mechanics is because you base it off of Intelligence instead of Charisma, so it is logically Intelligence-Based.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

That's a tricky one. Could easily go either way. I think we need a FAQ resolution here.

[blackbloodtroll]

Indeed.

For it so easily seen both ways, it should be a FAQ.

Important thing is, that it should work the same across the board.