Stacking: Enlarge+Lead Blades+Improved Natural Weapon+Strong Jaw


Rules Questions

Sczarni

I have a Ranger that has Natural Weapons: Claws, and he took the Improved Natural Attack feat, his claws normally deal 2D6 damage

if he gets Enlarge+Lead Blades+ Strong JAW, would they stack?

if he gets a glove of Impact would it step up?

I have a question to what type of Step Up Dice to the next level are stackable


There was a FAQ stating explicitly that Impact and Lead Blades do not stack. So that is first off.

The second issue is really that these are all the same sort of effect. If they were "bonuses" then there would be a great argument for allowing them to stack, but they aren't. Each of these is an effect, and similar effects do not stack... you just take the strongest one.

The best you could really do is Imp. Natural Attack, Enlarge and Strong Jaw.

Imp. Natural attack increases the damage dice flat out.
Enlarge increases the actual size of the weapons
Strong Jaw treats them as two size categories larger.

Since impact, lead blades, belt of thunderous charging et all also "treat the weapons as X size categories larger" they would overlap with strong jaw and not stack.

Sczarni

Precisely what Lord_Malkov stated.

Also, (Edit:)Impact will not work, even through AoMF, on your Natural attacks(or IUS) as they qualify as a Light Weapon.


How did he get his claws up to 2D6? Most claw abilities give you 1D4, Catfolk Exemplar can stack with Aspect of the Beast (Claws) for 1D6. Improved Natural Attack could bump the Catfolk up to 1D8 but thats still a bump away from 2D6 per claw. Barbarians can get 1D8 claws at level ten with Beast Totem I believe, but dont qualify for Improved Natural Attack by themselves. All told i could see the Catfolk Exemplar getting up to 4D6 per claw with Catfolk Exemplar(D4), Aspect of the Beast(D6), Improved Natural Attack (D8), Enlarge (2D6) and Strong Jaw (4D6).

Sczarni

Torbyne wrote:
How did he get his claws up to 2D6? Most claw abilities give you 1D4, Catfolk Exemplar can stack with Aspect of the Beast (Claws) for 1D6. Improved Natural Attack could bump the Catfolk up to 1D8 but thats still a bump away from 2D6 per claw. Barbarians can get 1D8 claws at level ten with Beast Totem I believe, but dont qualify for Improved Natural Attack by themselves. All told i could see the Catfolk Exemplar getting up to 4D6 per claw with Catfolk Exemplar(D4), Aspect of the Beast(D6), Improved Natural Attack (D8), Enlarge (2D6) and Strong Jaw (4D6).

He is a Shapeshifter Ranger with the Natural Weapons path, also I gave him a 3rd party Path from Midnight Heroic Paths that is called Beast

Vicious Assault: The beast is so vicious and aggressive that he can tear enemies to pieces with his bare hands. He gains two claw
attacks. At 6th level and 11th level, the beast’s claws deal greater damage as shown on the chart below. Because these are natural
attacks, the character may make both claw attacks at his normal BAB. He also qualifies for the Improved Natural Attack feat.
Level Medium Small
1st 1d4 1d3
6th 1d6 1d4
11th 1d8 1d6

Sczarni

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

Precisely what Lord_Malkov stated.

Also, Lead Blades will not work, even through AoMF, on your Natural attacks(or IUS) as they qualify as a Light Weapon.

What does AoMF and IUS mean :S?

Sczarni

Malakav wrote:
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

Precisely what Lord_Malkov stated.

Also, (Edit:)Impact will not work, even through AoMF, on your Natural attacks(or IUS) as they qualify as a Light Weapon.

What does AoMF and IUS mean :S?

Oh, if you were attempting to gain the effects of (Edit:)Impact through an Amulet of Mighty Fists(aomf). IUS is Improved Unarmed Strike... and I just threw that in that in case you started to wonder.

I had no idea if you were trying to multiclass to get all of those abilities, or just trying to get an AoMF enchanted with some or all of them.

Edit: AoMF is a great way to enhance ALL of your Unarmed or Natural attacks. It just stinks that it only holds up to a +5 total enchantment value, and it takes up a neck slot.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

AoMF = Amulet of Mighty Fists
IUS = Improved Unarmed Strike

Sczarni

Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe.

Aren´t Natural Weapons = Melee Weapons?

Sczarni

Malakav wrote:

Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe.

Aren´t Natural Weapons = Melee Weapons?

IMPACT. My sincerest apologies. I did not mean Lead Blades at any point... though I obviously mixed the two up, in which I will edit/change them now if I can.

Sczarni

From what I've seen so far, the biggest Size Damage you can do is through a Druid/Something - Strong Jaw + Huge Sized WildShape. I think it hits the Gargantuan level. Cave Druids can hit up to 14d8(Ooze Wildshape, Red Crystaline I believe) I think with one Slam attack(Slam Damage + Strong Jaw).

Sczarni

i see, as for my question

are Natural Weapons (Natural Attacks) = Melee Weapons (Melee AttackS)?

Sczarni

I believe they actually count as a Light Weapon(Though, not a manufactured weapon) if I'm not mistaken. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


Malakav wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
How did he get his claws up to 2D6? Most claw abilities give you 1D4, Catfolk Exemplar can stack with Aspect of the Beast (Claws) for 1D6. Improved Natural Attack could bump the Catfolk up to 1D8 but thats still a bump away from 2D6 per claw. Barbarians can get 1D8 claws at level ten with Beast Totem I believe, but dont qualify for Improved Natural Attack by themselves. All told i could see the Catfolk Exemplar getting up to 4D6 per claw with Catfolk Exemplar(D4), Aspect of the Beast(D6), Improved Natural Attack (D8), Enlarge (2D6) and Strong Jaw (4D6).

He is a Shapeshifter Ranger with the Natural Weapons path, also I gave him a 3rd party Path from Midnight Heroic Paths that is called Beast

Vicious Assault: The beast is so vicious and aggressive that he can tear enemies to pieces with his bare hands. He gains two claw
attacks. At 6th level and 11th level, the beast’s claws deal greater damage as shown on the chart below. Because these are natural
attacks, the character may make both claw attacks at his normal BAB. He also qualifies for the Improved Natural Attack feat.
Level Medium Small
1st 1d4 1d3
6th 1d6 1d4
11th 1d8 1d6

Ok, so looking at the natural attack weapon chart, this guy at level 11 will have base claws for D8, improved natural attack for 2D6, Enlarge for 2D8 and Strong Jaw bumping it up to 4D8 per claw? (based on 2D8 -> 4D6 -> 4D8) but impact and leaden blades and the rest dont qualify as they are the same but lesser sources as Strong Jaw?


@Kazumetsa: Natural weapons are considered light weapons (at least for the purpose of Weapon Finesse). If Malakav's question is in regards to Lead Blades though, that's irrelevant, as the spell doesn't include the "cannot be used on light weapons" text like Impact does.

That said, there's no explicit text that I can find that says that natural weapons are considered melee weapons. There are some places where they are considered to be equivalent. So it would be a GM call, in my opinion. I would personally allow Lead Blades on natural weapons, since the only similar spell specifically for natural weapons is Strong Jaw, which is a higher level spell and a more powerful effect.


And dont primary natural attacks gain the +2 per hit from Power Attack? since they dont work with traditional handedness or two weapon fighting i dont think natural weapons can be light. Its more of a specific exception for finesse.


@Torbyne: Good point. They can gain benefit from Power Attack. Might be nice to have that officially clarified.

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