What you read seems to be incorrect. However, while she is not taking damage from the scout or enchanter, she does activate the effects at the shrine and the Warrens. Even though she evaded she still encountered those cards.
To be specific, she gets to avoid the "Before the encounter" and "After the encounter" effects because evading happens before those steps in the Encountering A Card sequence:
- Evade the card (optional).
- Apply any effects that happen before the encounter, if needed.
- Attempt the check.
- Attempt the next check, if needed.
- Apply any effects that happen after the encounter, if needed.
- Resolve the encounter.
And just like by evading she doesn't have to attempt the check, she doesn't have to activate the Before and After effects either. But evading is still a part of the Encountering a Card Sequence, so evading doesn't change the fact that she did encounter a card. So a location rule about an encountered card applies to an evaded card too.
Can I ask what you read that led you to that conclusion?
I think there's some confusion in that, according to what I've read here, "before the encounter" actually means "before the check." I understand that evading the encounter = no encounter, so nothing on the card is resolved, but there is a bit of a logical disconnect.
I have not approved the wording "before the check" for precisely that reason. There's too much going on in an encounter to simplify it to "the check."
I agree with Dave Riley's post above, and will try to break down the logical disconnect a bit more.
What it comes down to is that evaded cards are still encountered. For a specific example, the rulings regarding the Warrens clearly indicate that an evaded card still sets off the Warrens effect, thus those evaded cards are still being "encountered."
If a card is being "encountered" then something on the card that happens "before the encounter" seems like it should still happen since evading happens AFTER the card is encountered.
Saying "ignore everything on the card" is all fine and good but when you throw the golden rule in there that card text is supposed to overrule everything, then it's pretty confusing as to whether you go with the card text or you go with the evade means you ignore everything rule. Also you really don't ignore everything anyway since you still have to look to see whether anything on the card might give it immunity to the type of evade method being used, for example.
I understand why you don't like "before the check" but I still think it's an improvement over "before the encounter" as I'm confident that there's a lot of confusion out there about before the encounter vs evading for the people who don't scour the forums for every rule question.
Overall I guess the point of this post is that pretty much the entire evade/before the encounter wording/interaction could really use another look in my opinion.
I think the rules do a good job of describing how to treat evade with respect to 'before encounter' and 'after encounter' effects. I agree that the before/after encounter effect wording conflicts with instances like The Warrens. If you do something that prevents 'before encounter' effects, one would assume that you never actually encounter it.
Yet, The Warrens uses the technicality that you 'encountered the card' according to the rules, but you only performed the first step of the process. Careful reading and interpretation of the rules will probably lead you to the right conclusion, but lay understanding based on reading the cards reaches a different one.
A one-liner in evasion step in the rules saying something like: 'Evaded cards still count as encountered, but do not apply before or after encounter effects.' might help to clear things up.
It might be more clear if there was a third term. Like "engaged" for example. (Though that specific word sounds a little weird. But it does start with an E.) Then it would be like this:
Encountering a Card
- Evade the card (optional)
- The card is considered engaged.
- Apply any effects that happen before the engagement, if needed.
- Attempt the check.
- Attempt the next check, if needed.
- Apply any effects that happen after the engangement, if needed.
- Resolve the encounter.
And change cards that have "Before the encounter" and "After the encounter" would instead have "Before the engagement" and "After the engagement" effects.
So an encountered card that was evaded wouldn't be engaged. And then the Warrens rule would be clearer and so would the Scout and Enchanter.
You could even be more clear with this:
Encountering a Card
- Evade the card and move to "resolve the encounter" (optional)
- The card is considered engaged.
- Apply any effects that happen before the engagement, if needed.
- Attempt the check.
- Attempt the next check, if needed.
- Apply any effects that happen after the engangement, if needed.
- Resolve the encounter.
Just brainstorming. Might be some problems with it. I'm not a game designer and have never made anything as complex and unique as this wonderful game.
Even though it would require changing a lot of card text, I like the "engaged" suggestion above. Sometimes I think the game tries to oversimplify card wording where more terms would actually help rather than hurt.
Another example of this is the good ole' "combat check". I think I basically had to rewire my entire brain before I fully grasped the nuances of that. For example, that a blessing that affects a non-combat wisdom check could actually be used when fighting the Siren. But wait, it's combat, but no it's not a "combat check". Oh okay, I think I've got it for the moment.
Yeah, that checks against monsters not listed as "combat" are not combat checks is one of the few rules that really took me a while to come around on, though really it should be obvious from the get-go. Pathfinder's remarkably straightforward, but I did have a niggle or two like that.
"At the beginning of the encounter" would be more accurate than "before the encounter" in my opinion, and I think it would clear up a lot of confusion.
A card is considered to be "encountered" the moment it is revealed from a location deck or summoned from the box (this is why evading a monster at the Warrens still triggers the location effect). So anything that happens "before the encounter" would literally have to be resolved before the card is even revealed! How would one even do that without knowing the card?!
Said differently... "Apply any effects that happen before the encounter" is one of the steps that happens *during* an encounter. If it's part of the sequence of events that happens *during* an encounter, it's inaccurate to say it happens *before* the encounter.
Similarly, I think "at the end of the encounter" works better than "after the encounter." The step "apply any effects that happen after the encounter" happens before the encounter actually resolves, so it's not really accurate to say it happens *after* the encounter.
I think this revised sequence flows more logically:
-Evade the card (optional).
-Apply any effects that happen at the beginning of the encounter, if needed.
-Attempt the check.
-Attempt the next check, if needed.
-Apply any effects that happen at the end of the encounter, if needed.
-Resolve the encounter.
For me this doesn't really fix the crux of the problem.
If you are evading before the card is encountered then the Warrens shouldn't be activated. If you are evading after the card is encountered, then anything happening "before the encounter" or "at the beginning of the encounter" should still be activated in addition the Warrens effect. I understand what the rule is, but basically the instruction is "ignore everything the rules and the cards say and apply this specific arbitrary set of rules whenever a card is to be evaded."
I still like Hawk's suggestion of adding a second step, call it engage or whatever you like, within the "encountering" of a bane. This would allow for the initial "encounter" to happen and for the card to be looked at for any effects that would nullify the particular type of evade (such as immunity to mental) and then you could have other effects such as monster X doing 1d4 damage "before the encounter" to be changed to something like "before the combat step" or "before it is engaged" if the intent was for evading to avoid that bit. Sure, it's extra card text but you can't always oversimplify these things.
I think my suggestion works, if you interpret "evade" to mean "skip to the resolution step of this encounter. Resolve the encounter by shuffling the card back in the location deck from where it came. The card is neither defeated nor undefeated."
This should make it clear that you still "encountered" a card when you evade it.
"Beginning of the encounter" is flexible enough to be logically consistent with a proper understanding of the rules, in the same way that when someone says, "So and so happened at the beginning of this book", it doesn't necessarily mean it happened in the first sentence of the text.
"Before the encounter" just never made much sense to me.
Chief Technical Officer
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Using dictionaries to determine the meaning of game terms will often cause you problems. Games have very specific needs, in that game terms need to mean a very specific thing; they also usually have to mean exactly one thing.
For example, you can't substitute "escape" for "evade" in this game because "escape" already has a meaning in this game—it's what the villain does if you defeat him while any locations are open.
In the game, "evade" is defined on page 10. During the "Evade the Card" step of encountering a card, you can use a power or play a card that lets you evade the card you’re encountering; that means you immediately shuffle it back into the deck; it is neither defeated nor undefeated. Since the card is no longer in front of you, there's nothing else to *do* in the encounter. If you want to think of it as "the encounter immediately ends," that's fine, and if you want to think of it as "I have to finish going through all of the steps, none of which actually have any effect," that's fine too. The end result is the same—you evade the card you encountered, and nothing else happens.
To be clear, even "Resolve the Encounter" doesn't *do* anything when you evade. The first sentence of that section tells you what to do about the result of your checks to defeat a bane, and the other tells you what to do about the result of your checks to acquire a boon. Neither of these apply to what you have just done. The resolution of evading happens immediately as part of evading.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Also, the ally Shalelu Andosana has nothing whatsoever to do with evading a card. She's a scout—she lets you examine the top card of a deck and gives you the ability to encounter it. "Examine" means you look at the specified card, then put it back where it came from (see page 12). If you don't encounter it, that card is still on top of the deck. That's *very* different from "evade", which would shuffle the card into the deck as part of an encounter. Different words for different things.
Instructions involving evading - btw I'm not a designer but have a pretty good understanding of the rules
1) Ignore anything on the actual card to be evaded EXCEPT any immunity that would stop the evade from working (like immunity to mental that would stop some mental spells from working). This includes any "before the encounter" actions which are also ignored, unless, once again, they specifically affect evading.
2) However the card is actually considered to be encountered with regards to OTHER cards such as the Warrens which do activate when a card is encountered.
3) Evaded cards are considered to be neither defeated nor undefeated. (So basically they don't set off anything that activates based on a card being defeated or undefeated). In general, an evaded card is just shuffled back into the location deck it came from unless the ability allowing you to evade says otherwise (For example the Sanctuary spell specifies that it leaves the evaded card on the top of the location deck.)
4) If this seems confusing (particularly the #1-#2 part), you are not alone.
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I know you'd prefer a designer, but in the meantime, here is the encountering a card sequence:
Encountering a Card
- Evade the card (optional).
- Apply any effects that happen before the encounter, if needed.
- Attempt the check.
- Attempt the next check, if needed.
- Apply any effects that happen after the encounter, if needed.
- Resolve the encounter.
Evade the Card (Optional). If you have a power or card that lets you evade the card you’re encountering, you may immediately shuffle it back into the deck; it is neither defeated nor undefeated.
If you evade, the encounter ends immediately. Right then and there you stop the whole sequence. So if you evade you don't apply any effects that happen before the encounter. You don't attempt the check. You don't attempt the next check. You don't apply any effects that happen after the encounter. You don't resolve the encounter. You simply end the encounter, shuffle the card back whence it came, and continue with your turn.
You did encounter the card, so things like the Warrens and the Shrine to Lamashtu's powers are activated.
So, for instance, if Merisiel is at the Warrens and on her turn she explores and encounters the Enchanter her actions would look like this:
- Merisiel evades the Enchanter and shuffles her back into the location deck
- Merisiel does not apply the 1 Force damage "before the encounter" effect from the Encahnter, because she evaded and the Enchanter is no longer in front of her for this step.
- Merisiel does not attempt the check because she evaded and the Enchanter is no longer in front of her for this step.
- Merisiel does not attempt the next check, because she evaded and the Enchanter is no longer in front of her for this step (and there isn't one)
- Merisiel does not apply the 1 Fire damage "after the encounter" effect from the Enchanter, because she evaded and the Enchanter is no longer in front of her for this step.
- Merisiel does not resolve the encounter, because she evaded and the Enchanter is no longer in front of her for this step. (And there was no check to defeat the bane, so there was nothing to resolve. And this step is either that she banishes a defeated bane or shuffles the undefeated bane back whence it came, but she's already shuffled away the evaded card.)
- Merisiel does place a random monster on top of another random open location, because she did encounter a monster. She just decided to evade it after encountering it.
Forget about the slight confusion of the terminology, and just do each step slowly one at a time in the order required, and as soon as the card is shuffled away you'd realize that you can't read it anymore, so you can't apply any of its effects, you can't attempt any of its checks, and you can't put it anywhere because its already gone. I hope that helps.
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What Hawkmoon said.
I hope this has been cleared up now! I think the root of the problem is that you "Encounter" a card by exploring but then there is a "small encounter" within the "big encounter", and the "before the encounter" and "after the encounter" events happen either side of the "small encounter".
If you evade a card then it has been "big encountered" but the "small encounter" never happened so none of the before/after effects happen.
Anyway... on to my question which was raised by Olav after reading the Turn Sequence docs on BGG:
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The Shrine to Lamashtu says: "When you encounter a blessing, ..."
Is this:
(a) as soon as you flip over a blessing (i.e. when you 'big' encounter a blessing), or
(b) only if you do not evade (i.e. the same as "before the encounter", meaning it happens when you start the 'small' encounter)?
I assume it's (a) but would like to be sure!
Its A. I understand what you are trying to get at with "small encounter" and "big encounter" but technically there there is only one type of encounter. And the moment you character explores they encounter that card they turn over and nothing will change the fact they encountered it.
Read my post above Mike's. I know its long and its easy to miss somethings that are in there, but I said that even when evading you take damage at the Shrine and have to put a monster somewhere else at the Warrens.
Forget about what the words before and after mean for a moment. Instead replace those phrases in the Encountering A Card Sequence" with "As part of step 2 of the encountering a card sequence" and "As part of step 5 of the encountering a card sequence". And pretend you made a similar change on the cards with those words.
Now recognize the evading ends the encountering sequence as soon as you evade. You don't do steps 2-6. You either play a card to explore again or move own to the next step of the turn sequence.
That phrase on tangletooth is not a "before the encounter" effect. It just tells you that tangletooth is essentially a mass encounter of herself. Treat each one character's individual encounter like it is with a summoned henchman that is an exact copy of tangletooth.
One character of many evading tangletooth doesn't mean you get to shuffle as part of the evade. But, since one character did not defeat tangletooth, tangletooth is undefeated. Then as part of resolving the encounter with tangletooth's card she is shuffled back into the location.
For the Woods, nothing would change because the rule at the woods doesn't apply to henchman.
If you somehow encountered tangletooth at the Warrens, then for each character at the Warrens you would put a random monster on top of another random open location, regardless of whether any of the characters evade.
Thanks for the input guys. I'll update the Turn Sequence docs after I've finished the S&S playtest and have some free time again!
Sorry but I'm still very confused regarding Ogrekin then. Why would he have the non evade die result as a before the encounter effect if Merisiel can evade him before she even has to roll the dice?
Is that to prevent other evade effects such as certain spell or the medusa mask? Dont they work basically the same way as Merisiel?
If Merisiel can avoid the Enchantress' before encounter effect (which it seems she can) then she has to be able to avoid Ogrekin, but then why have the non evade die result? It makes no sense.
Sorry but I'm still very confused regarding Ogrekin then. Why would he have the non evade die result as a before the encounter effect if Merisiel can evade him before she even has to roll the dice?
Is that to prevent other evade effects such as certain spell or the medusa mask? Dont they work basically the same way as Merisiel?
If Merisiel can avoid the Enchantress' before encounter effect (which it seems she can) then she has to be able to avoid Ogrekin, but then why have the non evade die result? It makes no sense.
His "Roll the a d6" power is not a "Before the encounter effect" it is a "When encountered effect" so it has to be done prior to starting the "Encountering a Card" sequence. Thus it happens prior to the "Evade" step of that sequence, and thus, if she rolls a 3, Merisiel cannot evade him.
When you encounter the Ogrekin, roll 1d4:
1. The difficulty to defeat the Ogrekin is increased by 2; damage dealt by the Ogrekin is reduced by 2.
2. Damage dealt by the Ogrekin is increased by 2.
3. The Ogrekin may not be evaded.
4. After the encounter, put the Ogrekin on the bottom of the location deck.
If defeated, you may immediately attempt to close this location.
In an encounter with him, it would play out like this:
Encounter with Ogrekin
When encountered, roll a d6. Result is 3.
Start Encountering a Card sequence.
- Evade the card (optional). This is no not possible because of the result above.
- Apply any effects that happen before the encounter, if needed. There are none, because nothing on his card says "Before the encounter". So this is not needed
- Attempt the check. Try to defeat him.
- Attempt the next check, if needed. If you played a card that needs a recharge attempt, do it now.
- Apply any effects that happen after the encounter, if needed. There are none, because nothing on his card says "After the encounter". So this is not needed.
- Resolve the encounter. If he is defeated, banish him. If he is undefeated, shuffle him back into the location.
The Enchantress's powers are specifically a "Before the encounter" effect and an "After the encounter" effect because they use those specific terms to denote them.
Its is a bit weird that "When encountered" things happen prior to "Before the encounter" things, but that is how it is. Some of that comes from the fact that the original rulebook has Encountering a Card in a paragraph format with no lists. When the November revision came out, it was arranged as a list to help people. Then it became obvious that the terms were a bit counter intuitive.
Ok, thank you so much Hawkmoon, that really cleared it up. You are right that the language is counterintuitive, but now that I know, its not a huge deal. We played Ogrekin the right way, because you can obviously tell they don't want you to just auto evade him, but there were some very confused looks around the table.
The whole issue of the terminiology is discussed in this thread here.
In essence, they can't change it for Rise of the Runelords because it would mean too many cards would need updated. But they are looking at changing it for Skull and Shackles and other future Adventure Paths.
In essence, they can't change it for Rise of the Runelords because it would mean too many cards would need updated. But they are looking at changing it for Skull and Shackles and other future Adventure Paths.
Very well summarized.
In essence, whatever they are, there should have been two words/terms to make it clear.
one to describe the actions the time when you flip the location card and triggers reactions like the warrens. And another one to describe the start of the actual interaction with the flipped card.
Evading happens clearly between those steps.
Before the encounter clearly is the first substep of the interaction with the card part.
Something like (terms to be certainly changed - English is not my native language):
1 "discover" which usually means flip location card
2 apply effects triggered by "discover" step like Warrens
3 evade or not - if evade jump to step 8
4 apply."before engage" effects
5 resolve check
6 apply defeated or undefeated effects
7 apply "after engage" effects
8 apply "after discover" effects, including what happens of the encountered card
Etc.
They decided on a resolution that will be present in Skull and Shackles. See this post.