DeGhostLeUtra's page

I have a question on the Sphere of Fire and further more with Aqueous Orb. Our play group had a large (angry) debate and I would love clarification.

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Display this card.

While displayed, for your combat check, you may use your Arcane or Divine skill + 1d6; you may additionally discard this card to add another 1d6.

At the end of your turn, if you do not have either the Arcane or Divine skill, banish this card; otherwise, attempt an Arcane or Divine 9 check. If you succeed, recharge this card; if you fail, discard it.
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'Display this card' is where we came into debate. After a character draws up their hand, is it possible is immediately display the card and keep it displayed until the end of that plays next turn?

I see that a large part of discussion in this thread has been about the discard/recharge debate and the that timing. Some in my play group believe that Sphere of Fire can only be 'displayed' during combat, and then left out.

The other half believe it can be played anytime outside an encounter. But there is a question on if it can be displayed during combat since it doesn't directly affect a check since the first power clause is display. Same idea that cure isn't done in combat, which is also a display.

I guess a follow up question is when can you and when can you not play a card with {Display this card.]

Thank you.

So back to my original question a week ago:

Tangletooth: Each character at this location encounters Tangletooth. If any character does not defeat Tangletooth, she is undefeated.

If Merisiel faces Tangletooth, and evades the encounter, is Tangletooth undefeated if you don't apply any effects that happen after the encounter, and you don't resolve the encounter?

From what I am reading, if Merisiel is alone at the woods, faces Tangletooth, evades, Tangletooth gets shuffled into the Woods, not banished due to her clause for being undefeated. If Merisiel is not alone (which is rare in our games) if she evades, Tangletooth is undefeated since her clause is still active for the other player, hence banished and can not be defeated? Is this correct?

Vic, I now feel comfortable with the timing of evade from all that I have read. I was only trying to help explain my original confusion with evade and how I internally picture the way evade works as to help others. I didn't want to redefine the game terms but use terms I use internally as to help others who also might see them as I do/did.

The original reason I was confused was that I internally took evade as avoid the card. If I avoided the card, I internally thought that as I didn't encounter what was on the card. But I came to understand that cards like Tangletooth, I was thinking of the evade process all wrong. I had to dig deeper into evade, which is where I did a lot of reading and even made a post previously. I could not avoid encountering the card, and internally if I encounter something, I can't avoid it, but internally I see it as escaping before anything happens. Plus I still have to go to the resolve encounter step with cards like Tangletooth even if I do evade. Same with Zombie Horde.

I didn't mean to make any more confusion. My goal was to use my internal thought process on how I got to my understanding of the steps to hopefully help someone who also was thinking avoid the card.

The last part was just me going on a tangent thought about the avoidance vs escaping concept, the two base ideas behind evasion in non game terms. I know it is not part of the game, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

Sorry.

Looking at my own situations with Evade and what I have read throughout all of the posts, I have come to the conclusion that the word usage of EVADE is problematic. It can mean avoid or escape based on its usage.

When I think of evade, and when I looked up the definition, the verb is used to "avoid/elusive" encountering/dealing/facing/doing a situation. This is the transitive view of EVADE. The intransitive meaning of evade means to take refuge in escape, to slip away.

So I see it as: I EVADED also means I ESCAPED. I EVADED my EX also means I avoided/eluded my EX.

Because we often use the term EVADE with an object that we are evading, ie I EVADE ENCOUNTER/MONSTER/BANE, to me always meant I avoid(probably through elusiveness) the encounter/monster/bane. By the rules, EVADE [object] so we do encounter the card and start the encounter which would fall under intransitive usage. We use the following rule list:

Start Encounter
Evade [the card] (optional). [Then skip to the Resolve the encounter]
Apply any effects that happen before the encounter, if needed.
Attempt the check.
Attempt the next check, if needed.
Apply any effects that happen after the encounter, if needed.
Resolve the encounter.

Now to me, based on the transitive verb of EVADE, we should be avoiding the encounter. And this is what I view my ally in my deck actually does. I have the named archer where she is used the evade a card by revealing her, look at the top card of the deck, recharge her or discard her to encounter the card. But because we EVADE through the intransitive use, the rules can be used by changing one word.

When I look to evade on my character, I say "I EVADE" and think ESCAPE now and play the rules as:

Start Encounter
ESCAPE [the card] (optional). [Then skip to Resolve the encounter]
Apply any effects that happen before the encounter, if needed.
Attempt the check.
Attempt the next check, if needed.
Apply any effects that happen after the encounter, if needed.
Resolve the encounter.

I do think it would be cool if all EVADES are changed to ESCAPES for simplicity and would make more sense with usage of caltrops and maybe create a future transitive EVADE similar to that of the named archer ally.

AVOID Encounter (EVADE transitive) [Free look with/without shuffle?]
Start Encounter
ESCAPE the card (optional)(EVADE Intransitive). [Then skip to Resolve the encounter]
Apply any effects that happen before the encounter, if needed.
Attempt the check.
Attempt the next check, if needed.
Apply any effects that happen after the encounter, if needed.
Resolve the encounter.

Sorry, I do not remember the name of the ally off the top of my head.

Thoughts?

The monster was a Henchman from Box 1, Tangletooth. I don't have the card in front of me. Essentially it says that everyone at the location must face Tangletooth. If it is not defeated (by everyone) then it is undefeated.

I guess my question is the timing of evade. I just want a bit more clarification for "If this monster is not defeated, treat it as undefeated"

1) After you flip over the top card of the location deck, put it on top of the deck and read it, then go through the following steps in order.

2) Evade the card (optional). If you have a power or card that lets you evade the card you’re encountering, you may immediately shuffle it back into the deck; it is neither defeated nor undefeated.

3) Apply any effects that happen before the encounter, if needed.

4) Attempt the check. If the card is a boon, you may try to acquire it for your deck; if it’s a bane, you must try to defeat it (see Attempting a Check, below). If a bane’s “Check to Defeat” section says “None,” look at the bane’s powers, and immediately do whatever it says there.

5) Attempt the next check, if needed. If another check is required, such as if you played a boon with a check to recharge, or if your bane requires a second check to defeat, resolve it now. Repeat this step until you have resolved all such checks.

6) Apply any effects that happen after the encounter, if needed. Do this whether or not you succeeded at your checks.

7) Resolve the encounter. If you succeed at all of the checks required to defeat a bane, banish it; if you don’t succeed, it is undefeated— shuffle the card back into its location deck. If you succeed at a check to acquire a boon, put it in your hand; otherwise, banish it."

8) Not officially a step for the encounter as posted in the FAQ, but I am putting it here to say the encounter has passed and is over.

My question on Evade. If I am allowed to evade due to the card not saying that I can't evade, do I go from step 2 to step 8? This is my understanding of the steps of the encounter. If a monster has a power that says "If this card is not defeated, treat it as undefeated" have any effect if the encounter is evaded? I ask because in my understanding, this would fall under step 7 with the resolution of the encounter. If this step is ignored, does this power still come into play with evade? Sorry, just wanted confirmation on this one issue.

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I understand all that you said and that is what I agree with. I just wanted the clarification so that we can end these arguments. I fully expect Merisiel to recharge all blessings used on dex based checks with this power.

I have two questions. I feel they are simple but I have not found a direct answer. The people I play with will squabble over who is right until I have a direct answer.

1) Is there a difference between evade monster and evade encounter, and with that in mind, if a monster is evaded and the monster states that if it is not defeated treat it as undefeated, how will this play out once evaded?

2) Merisiel Role B (Either): When you play a blessing to add to your dexterity check, you may recharge it instead of discarding it.

From everything I have read, my thoughts on question 1 is that if you evade an encounter, you skip the rest of the combat steps including the powers on the card, shuffle the card back into the location deck or put it back in the box as required as if it was never encountered. To me this would mean that the power on the bane means nothing. This came up as a monster we encountered in adventure pack 1. We still beat it in combat but Merisiel player made mention he could have evaded it without the penalty from the monsters power.

The question is whether or not Merisiel could have evaded it with its clause stating that if it is not defeated to treat it as undefeated, and if Caltrops could have evaded it. Caltrops states evade a monster. One argument was Merisiel can evade it since she evades the encounter while caltrops might not since it evades the monster but not the encounter ( before and after damage would still apply). To me both evades are one in the same. Evade is evade no matter what, and the monster specification means you can not use it to evade barriers or boons. And I feel that evading a monster also evades all of its powers. I just need clarification.

Second question I brought up because the player who plays Merisiel feels that any ranged combat check using any blessing to add a die to her combat ranged dex based combat check would have that blessing be recharged once it was used. Another player says that a ranged combat check is not a dex check because he believes that it needs to state "dex based" or "dex based combat check" to be used with a range combat attack. He pointed out that the blessing for dex based combat check as the example saying it would need the exact same wording. I mentioned that it is universal for both combat and noncombat dex based checks.

From Mike's post here, http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q7lz?Concerning-the-FAQ-a-ruling-on-traits-and

I believe that any attribute check used in combat or noncombat is treated the same. Merisiel uses a dex based combat check when using a ranged weapon. This would make me agree with player who uses Merisiel in that the blessing would recharge. I would love final clarification.

I would love to point out who is right and wrong. Thank you! :)