Goblin Squad Member
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The implications of this are that new Settlements, which will have a low DI, will also have infrequent and short Settlement Vulnerability windows. Settlements with low DI, like those run by Chaotic Evil characters, will also have infrequent and short windows - but they will also have relatively basic structures which means relatively low-powered residents.
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Ryan you seem to have a preconceived notion that Chaotic = Stupid. Are you saying that a Chaotic settlement can not set its PvP windows wider, allowing it to have a higher DI and thus offer more than basic structures and low powered residents?
What you are saying is Chaotic characters should not bother to run settlements at all. What is their benefit to spend weeks or months building something, only to be under powered and a target for the stronger and far more abundant lawful settlements?
You personal bias against 1/3 of the alignments is quite honestly astounding to me. Your favoritism towards Lawful alignments is already driving the majority of the player base to only consider building Lawful settlements, and the Neutral based settlements will be second class at best.
You are advocating for an imbalanced and broken system. Whole classes of characters won't be tried, because you have guaranteed that they will suck.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those of you who missed it...
Question: Which is more powerful, as Chaotic Evil settlement or a Lawful Good settlement that can't effectively combat crime and heinous deeds within their borders?
Answer: The Chaotic Evil settlement.
Question: Who commits the chaotic and evil deeds inside someone's Lawful Good settlement that makes it weaker than a Chaotic Evil one?
Answer: Chaotic and evil players.
Question: Where will chaotic and evil players live?
Answer: Chaotic and evil settlements.
Question: When would a Chaotic Evil settlement suck?
Answer: When the players who live there suck.
Question: When is a Lawful Good settlement awesome?
Answer: When the player who live there are awesome.
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Any evil/chaotic leaders who can't see how to seize power and make their names feared needs to step aside and fall in line behind those who can.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If Brighthaven's PvP window opens up, and you see people gathering within your own settlement hex... people from companies who you know may attack you, but, you aren't formally at war with, alongside mercenaries of various guilds who they've hired, would you want to be punished for gathering a group together and squashing them into the ground before they had a chance to formally lay siege to your Settlement??Yes. It's just that in this case it's not.Especially given who's pushing it.Just because I have an agenda, doesn't mean I'm not making a valid point.
Ride out with 1000 characters, SAD the force for 100%. You either take all their stuff or kill them. If they then go on to attack your settlement during the vulnerability window, there is no subsequent reputation loss.
Bandits are going to have so much utility :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The implications of this are that new Settlements, which will have a low DI, will also have infrequent and short Settlement Vulnerability windows. Settlements with low DI, like those run by Chaotic Evil characters, will also have infrequent and short windows - but they will also have relatively basic structures which means relatively low-powered residents.
.Ryan you seem to have a preconceived notion that Chaotic = Stupid. Are you saying that a Chaotic settlement can not set its PvP windows wider, allowing it to have a higher DI and thus offer more than basic structures and low powered residents?
What you are saying is Chaotic characters should not bother to run settlements at all. What is their benefit to spend weeks or months building something, only to be under powered and a target for the stronger and far more abundant lawful settlements?
You personal bias against 1/3 of the alignments is quite honestly astounding to me. Your favoritism towards Lawful alignments is already driving the majority of the player base to only consider building Lawful settlements, and the Neutral based settlements will be second class at best.
You are advocating for an imbalanced and broken system. Whole classes of characters won't be tried, because you have guaranteed that they will suck.
I dunno, Bludd. I only read it as CE settlements will have a low DI and thus cannot set their vulnerability window wider.
That said, I am incredibly interested to see how a chaotic settlement would work. Someone has to start a CG settlement (come on all you Elves!) or a CN settlement at some stage, and I would really want them to be viable and a third pillar to the emerging LG v LE game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I read it to mean that CE settlements won't have the means to increase their DI such that they would need to open their PvP window to the same degree as others. DI is a measure of many different variables. The PvP window acts as a limit on top of those variables. You might have a DI of 8 (for example), however because your PvP window is only up for 6 hours it is limited down to 6.
Because CE settlements can't get their DI to particular heights by manipulating their variables, the limit doesn't really matter too them, so they don't increase their window to remove it.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Maybe I have another misconception. Is Stand-and-Deliver still tied to a Chaotic alignment? Are general Stealth abilities and Ambushing tied to Chaotic alignment? Are there any skills or feats related to raiding outposts, POIs, caravans also Chaotic based skills or feats?
I am not sure if there is anything but Paladin, Monk and Barbarian role skills tied to alignments, but I could be wrong. I haven't sat down and parsed the spreadsheets Lee, Stephen and Tork are building.
In short, if I want to be a Raider / Bandit, do I have to be Chaotic?
I can't remember ever us ever saying that a career in the game was linked to an alignment.
I think that if you are engaging in chaotic acts, your alignment will become chaotic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That group of travelers on the road might be bandits. I should kill them, just to be sure. Its the same rationale, just taken outside of a settlement.Note the use of the word enlightened.
RyanD
How is one more enlightened than the other? In each case, you are killing someone on the chance that they are a threat.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Ryan you seem to have a preconceived notion that Chaotic = Stupid. Are you saying that a Chaotic settlement can not set its PvP windows wider, allowing it to have a higher DI and thus offer more than basic structures and low powered residents?
I'm saying Development Index is a function of how high the reputation of the Settlement's members is.
What you are saying is Chaotic characters should not bother to run settlements at all. What is their benefit to spend weeks or months building something, only to be under powered and a target for the stronger and far more abundant lawful settlements?
Why do you think there should be a benefit?
You are, perhaps, confused.
This is not a game that promises "play any character you want, any way you want!" Those games, in my opinion, usually suck.
This is a game where if you play within a range of accepted archetypes for heroic adventuring, kingdom building, territorial control, and exploration, you will find nearly limitless potential for playing characters the way you want to play them. (Adventure, Develop, Dominate & Explore)
If you want to be those player's content, you will not find unlimited opportunities. You'll find a very challenging, very limited range of options.
This should not be a surprise to you. We keep saying it over and over and over. We've been very consistent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The implications of this are that new Settlements, which will have a low DI, will also have infrequent and short Settlement Vulnerability windows. Settlements with low DI, like those run by Chaotic Evil characters, will also have infrequent and short windows - but they will also have relatively basic structures which means relatively low-powered residents.
.Ryan you seem to have a preconceived notion that Chaotic = Stupid. Are you saying that a Chaotic settlement can not set its PvP windows wider, allowing it to have a higher DI and thus offer more than basic structures and low powered residents?
What you are saying is Chaotic characters should not bother to run settlements at all. What is their benefit to spend weeks or months building something, only to be under powered and a target for the stronger and far more abundant lawful settlements?
You personal bias against 1/3 of the alignments is quite honestly astounding to me. Your favoritism towards Lawful alignments is already driving the majority of the player base to only consider building Lawful settlements, and the Neutral based settlements will be second class at best.
You are advocating for an imbalanced and broken system. Whole classes of characters won't be tried, because you have guaranteed that they will suck.
I agree, settlements should be punished for low rep, not their alignment. Low reputation is bad, evil and chaotic are playstyles. Sometimes they have things in common, but not necessarily.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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How is one more enlightened than the other? In each case, you are killing someone on the chance that they are a threat.
One is killing you on my property. The other is killing you on a public space. That's the difference. I have a moral right to protect my home and property against de facto hostile forces. I don't have a moral right to whack people any where at any time because they might be dangerous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe I have another misconception. Is Stand-and-Deliver still tied to a Chaotic alignment? Are general Stealth abilities and Ambushing tied to Chaotic alignment? Are there any skills or feats related to raiding outposts, POIs, caravans also Chaotic based skills or feats?I am not sure if there is anything but Paladin, Monk and Barbarian role skills tied to alignments, but I could be wrong. I haven't sat down and parsed the spreadsheets Lee, Stephen and Tork are building.
In short, if I want to be a Raider / Bandit, do I have to be Chaotic?I can't remember ever us ever saying that a career in the game was linked to an alignment.
I think that if you are engaging in chaotic acts, your alignment will become chaotic.
So...if chaotic can't have the highest training, how do Barbarians cap?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I envision a neutral wandering onto a battlefield like if people had been wandering between the Union and Confederate at Gettysburg or the Italians had decided to just hang out at the Battle of Hastings. It's like paying a visit to the Alamo while it's falling or stopping to take in the scenery on Bunker Hill while the battle was raging.
Just because a settlement is open to attack doesn't mean it's under attack though, and that's where the line should be drawn IMO.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Ryan you seem to have a preconceived notion that Chaotic = Stupid. Are you saying that a Chaotic settlement can not set its PvP windows wider, allowing it to have a higher DI and thus offer more than basic structures and low powered residents?I'm saying Development Index is a function of how high the reputation of the Settlement's members is.
You used a math term there in a way that confuses me. Surely you didn't mean that for any measure of how high the reputation of the Settlement's members is, there is only one DI.
Did you mean that DI would be capped by the [average|median|minimum] reputation among settlement citizens? Did you mean that low reputation would penalize DI?
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is one more enlightened than the other? In each case, you are killing someone on the chance that they are a threat.One is killing you on my property. The other is killing you on a public space. That's the difference. I have a moral right to protect my home and property against de facto hostile forces. I don't have a moral right to whack people any where at any time because they might be dangerous.
They aren't known to be hostile. By that logic, every mailman and Fed Ex driver is fair game, since they are on my propety and might be cleverly disguised thieves.
An evil nation would have no problem with this. A good nation should be appalled by this. Meaningful choice is normally your goal. Why are you throwing out the intent for this case? I thought Good settlements had higher DI's because they had to maintain the moral high ground even when it is in their interest not to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan, for clarification, when the window is open is it *only* the settlement owners that are allowed to do the attacking? I'm discussing this with some folks and there seems to be some confusion as to whether *anyone* can waltz into the settlement hex during the window and basically have a rep-free free-for-all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They aren't known to be hostile. By that logic, every mailman and Fed Ex driver is fair game, since they are on my propety and might be cleverly disguised thieves.
From a RP perspective, if they arrive at 3AM and are armed, then there is a good possibility they are. If they're not armed, well, hopefully settlements want actual trade and commerce to occur.
If a 'good' settlement whacks everyone and his dog during their vulnerability window, people will end up not going to that settlement. This might be their intention, or it might be kill happy murderhobos living in the settlement. Either way, the settlement will deal with it.
If an 'evil' settlement whack everyone and his dog...well, they're a hive of scum and villainy that people will avoid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a 'good' settlement whacks everyone and his dog during their vulnerability window, people will end up not going to that settlement. This might be their intention, or it might be kill happy murderhobos living in the settlement. Either way, the settlement will deal with it.If an 'evil' settlement whack everyone and his dog...well, they're a hive of scum and villainy that people will avoid.
So much truthiness. You're my new favorite stabby short guy with a Disney name.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan said, the PVP Window of a settlement is not a secret to anyone. If you don't want to get whacked in a settlement that doesn't know you as friendly, don't go there during their high alert time.
If you enter my home at 3:00 AM, unannounced and unknown to me, you are very likely to get shot (multiple times, with hollow points).
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Goblin Squad Member
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So...if chaotic can't have the highest training, how do Barbarians cap?Barbarians aren't limited to chaotic. They're limited to non-lawful. So they can belong to lawful towns (if neutral) and neutral towns (if neutral or chaotic) just fine.
Yeah I know that's the workaround. But why a work around? Alignment should be the faction wheel. Reputation is the tool to foment certain types of PvP over others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This isn't your home. This is the middle of the street, or the town square. If a good settlement acts exactly like an evil settlement, then the alignment system is deeply flawed.
Yeas they should be different PLAYSTYLES. A chaotic settlement should suck at collecting taxes, yet be able to supplement that by carrying the bandit flags to SAD with.
An evil settlement should suck at having productive NPC's, but make up for it by being able to create undead and have slaves.
Neither of these things have ANYTHING to do with playing within the PvP systems GW's wants you to adhere to in PFO or being a jerk.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The alignment system has been deeply flawed once you're over 10 years old and you can role play a more complex character.
When you say that you sound like the guy who goes to a NASCAR event and tells everyone around him that the race sucks because the drivers only make left turns.
Alignment is a beloved part of this game system. It has a forty year history and was so integral to the game that we identified it as a "sacred cow" for 3rd edition.
You should think of it like the rules for haiku or sonnets. While limiting, the limits create a structure within which great art flourishes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The alignment system has been deeply flawed once you're over 10 years old and you can role play a more complex character.When you say that you sound like the guy who goes to a NASCAR event and tells everyone around him that the race sucks because the drivers only make left turns.
Since we are using Nascar as an analogy, your reputation system is like going to a Nascar race and handing out speeding tickets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since we are using Nascar as an analogy, your reputation system is like going to a Nascar race and handing out speeding tickets.The alignment system has been deeply flawed once you're over 10 years old and you can role play a more complex character.When you say that you sound like the guy who goes to a NASCAR event and tells everyone around him that the race sucks because the drivers only make left turns.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I'm saying Development Index is a function of how high the reputation of the Settlement's members is.You used a math term there in a way that confuses me. Surely you didn't mean that for any measure of how high the reputation of the Settlement's members is, there is only one DI.
I'm saying DI is a function and one of the variables is the reputation of the Settlement's membership. There are certainly lots of other variables.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Since we are using Nascar as an analogy, your reputation system is like going to a Nascar race and handing out speeding tickets.
The reputation system is the quality of the driver. Some drivers suck, some drivers are great. The driver's decisions moment to moment during the race determine the difference between sucking and being great.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The alignment system has been deeply flawed once you're over 10 years old and you can role play a more complex character.When you say that you sound like the guy who goes to a NASCAR event and tells everyone around him that the race sucks because the drivers only make left turns.
Alignment is a beloved part of this game system. It has a forty year history and was so integral to the game that we identified it as a "sacred cow" for 3rd edition.
You should think of it like the rules for haiku or sonnets. While limiting, the limits create a structure within which great art flourishes.
My AD&D group gave up the alignment system as it was written sometime earl;y in the 2nd edition when we were about 13 years old. The modification we made was to add a third aspect (Leaning) because we found that our character were too complex to be tied to just two axis.
Not more than 2 years later, we discarded it completely and just played our characters as we saw them.
Pathfinder RPG could just as easily have its Deities and have its priests follow the Domains and Subdomains. The alignment is actually unnecessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since we are using Nascar as an analogy, your reputation system is like going to a Nascar race and handing out speeding tickets.The reputation system is the quality of the driver. Some drivers suck, some drivers are great. The driver's decisions moment to moment during the race determine the difference between sucking and being great.
Rep doesnt do that though, since its a fluctuating variable. You can go low rep and "suck" but not train any skills till you are high rep, then go low rep again. It will fluctuate constantly with a PVPer.
Any bar you set will be worked around. (damn gamer scum lol)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The alignment system allows for extremely complex characters, in fact it doesn't really limit the characters you can create at all. Some people just don't understand that individual characters can take actions all over the alignment spectrum without being that alignment. Your alignment is a reflection of your character as a whole, not a straight jacket that says what you can and can't do. It's only a straight jacket if you are trying to force yourself to be an alignment you aren't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The alignment system allows for extremely complex characters, in fact it doesn't really limit the characters you can create at all. Some people just don't understand that individual characters can take actions all over the alignment spectrum without being that alignment. Your alignment is a reflection of your character as a whole, not a straight jacket that says what you can and can't do. It's only a straight jacket if you are trying to force yourself to be an alignment you aren't.
Too many contradictions in this post.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Andius, I just think he is the type for whom a rule needs to be strictly followed or thrown out. For @Bluddwolf alignment was causing cognitive dissonance. It was easier to throw out the system than play loosely with the concept. From a lot of his posts I get the sense that he is uncomfortable with ambiguity and thinks things will always reduce to bright black & white choices or be "useless". Pretty common in the gamer demographic, actually.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then that post and the alignment system share something in common. You obviously don't understand them.
No, I understand the alignment system, not your post.
You can not have extremely complex characters, within a two axis alignment system.
"individual characters can take actions all over the alignment spectrum without being that alignment."
Then the are not operating within the two axis alignment system. They are either ignoring it or are too complex for it to tie them to the two axis system.
"Your alignment is a reflection of your character as a whole"
If your character is as a "whole" reflected by just two axis, then he is simplistic.
"It's only a straight jacket if you are trying to force yourself to be an alignment you aren't."
The two axis is the straight jacket, although one very easy to escape if your character is fully fleshed out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So how is someone going to be "kinda" Lawful Good?
By acting in a generally lawful good manner but occasionally doing chaotic and evil things.
@ Bluddwolf. What you aren't comprehending is I can describe countless different reasons someone would fall into each different alignment if given time. Everyone can be classified into an alignment even if they are hard to define or sit close to the borders. These are extremely broad and complex systems and the fact you see them is simple is because you have a very simple understanding of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius, I just think he is the type for whom a rule needs to be strictly followed or thrown out. For @Bluddwolf alignment was causing cognitive dissonance. It was easier to throw out the system than play loosely with the concept. From a lot of his posts I get the sense that he is uncomfortable with ambiguity and thinks things will always reduce to bright black & white choices or be "useless". Pretty common in the gamer demographic, actually.
Actually we (my group) played so loosely with it that I found it to be obsolete or unnecessary for the purpose of role playing. There was no discomfort in using the system, just not complex enough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my mind, I have completely decoupled alignment from any objective morality, subjective morality, or tabletop roleplay context.
From what I have read alignment is a system designed to segregate people into differing power organizations, and then balancing them against each other.
With that consideration in mind, alignment makes perfect sense. Yeah, I might want them to balance it as it hits a live environment. I would have that same wish for any system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's neutral. Not "kinda" Lawful Good.So how is someone going to be "kinda" Lawful Good?By acting in a generally lawful good manner but occasionally doing chaotic and evil things.
Really. So lawful good characters NEVER do anything chaotic or evil? Because if you don't believe that then you should be able to see what I'm saying.