Seems like an awful lot of people think the Synthesist Summoner is overpowered, perhaps even brokenly so. Are they willing to test it?
Challenge: run through an entire AP (all of the volumes) with only one party member, a Synthesist Summoner of any core race, built with a 20 point buy.
Post your build here, and how far in they made it, or (if they're as powerful as many seem to think), that they finished it. Consider it an after-market playtest.
I plan to try this very challenge with RotRL in the next week or two. It'll be interesting to see if my attempt matches up with others.
I dont think it is OP. I think it is very easy to optimize and if you are in a party of other players that does not optimize as well it creates a discrepancy at the table. The other issue is that many people apply the rules incorrectly allowing for it to do things it should not be able to do. That also applies to the normal summoner at times. I actually think the normal summoner is more powerful.
The ability to run through an AC is not a good test of power on its own. The GM in question is a greater factor, even if he does not alter encounters. Tactics alone can change how a battle plays out.
One synth build I made was designed to solo Treerazer. As long as he (the GM) followed his combat script I would win.
One synth build I made was designed to solo Treerazer. As long as he (the GM) followed his combat script I would win.
A few builds on here can tackle Treerazer, some below 20th level.
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I dont think it is OP. I think it is very easy to optimize and if you are in a party of other players that does not optimize as well it creates a discrepancy at the table. The other issue is that many people apply the rules incorrectly allowing for it to do things it should not be able to do. That also applies to the normal summoner at times. I actually think the normal summoner is more powerful.
The ability to run through an AC is not a good test of power on its own. The GM in question is a greater factor, even if he does not alter encounters. Tactics alone can change how a battle plays out.
I'm not convinced it's overpowered either, but I've seen claims of them completing entire dungeons single handedly. I'm curious if that's s.o.p. for them, or a "totally happened to this guy my brother knew" tale. There is no optimal way to test them, at least APs come with pre-set encounters, and guidance.
As to being tricky to build rules legal, that's why I said to post builds, so that incorrectly built eidolons can be excluded from results. If they're easy to optimize, I'll see. My solo player had only played a regular summoner once, to level eight. Either way, it'll be an interesting experiment.
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i think the synthesist is very powerful, sure, i'd say it can do a lot more by himself than any other class, but solo an entire AP? you'd need a hell of a player, a nice DM and quite some luck, save or die is still a save or die
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The major issue people had with the synthesist summoner, or one of them anyway, is that you really only need your mental stats. Personally, I believe you should maintain a good CON score regardless. What people would do is cannibalize their physical stats and just have these monstrously high CHA for casting, WIS for will saves, and INT for skill points/knowledge skills. Meanwhile, you gained all of your physical power from the eidolon. The fact that you could drain your own HP to sustain the eidolon resulted in, while what it gave you would qualify as temporary HP, having it act as if it were your own HP anyway.
The next thing I would mention is that with a synthesist, its DR is your DR. A few races get a favored class bonus that adds DR to an eidolon, and at a surprisingly high rate at that. Bam, more survivability. Combine these things with the summoner's innate spellcasting ability and you get a very nasty character. I don't know that I'd say one could solo a campaign, but uh... that's not a very fair challenge to begin with. Every class has some things that it just can't do.
I will say this: I played a synthesist for a fair number of sessions in Rise of the Runelords. No, this was not a solo campaign, but one thing became very clear. It had the highest AC in the party, the most HP in the party, saves so high I had to roll a 1 to even think about failing against abilities used by things several CR above the character, an impressive amount of DR, and the ability to dish out ridiculous amounts of damage. It had numerous primary attacks, most of which hit for at minimum 1d8+10, at most 3d6+12; all this a good bit before reaching level 10 and without any buffs aside from wearing the eidolon itself. It was powerful enough that I actually chose to quit using it, and I'll openly admit to being a shameless min-maxer. Its mere presence trivialized encounters that, considering our APL, should have qualified as "epic." In a party full of optimized characters, it still stood out as a shining beacon of "what the hell is wrong with this archetype." I couldn't in good conscience continue to play something that I could tell was robbing the rest of the party of their fun. It was quite literally a one man army. Had I chosen to do so, I could easily have built it to be self-sufficient to a point that there was no use in having a party at all. While I doubt it could have soloed the entire thing, RotR as written would allow one to get almost to the end, provided you didn't fall against any save or die shenanigans and played with a healthy dose of common sense. ... Oh right, and abusing the living crap out of stealth. :P That's always a good thing.
Anyway, I would suggest you don't try to do a solo campaign unless the GM is making adjustments to account for the situation. Even the most powerful character in the world is still dust if it gets spammed to death with enervates, and there ain't no save on that. I would recommend instead that you get together a small group of skilled players and use your synthesist. Optimize it to the best of your ability, and observe as you outclass the rest of the party to the point that it's disgusting.
Seems like an awful lot of people think the Synthesist Summoner is overpowered, perhaps even brokenly so. Are they willing to test it?
Challenge: run through an entire AP (all of the volumes) with only one party member, a Synthesist Summoner of any core race, built with a 20 point buy.
Post your build here, and how far in they made it, or (if they're as powerful as many seem to think), that they finished it. Consider it an after-market playtest.
I think this is an intriguing challenge. I'm a huge Summoner fan but I've avoided the Synthesist like the plague due to the cheese I so often see associated with it. I think I may get my wife to run this for me and post the results.
One question - can you gain aid from NPC's as prescribed in the adventure - like Shalelu from RotRL or the caravan members from Regent? Theoretically you would have access to an entire crew in Skull n Shackles but it seems like a de facto party of NPC's would ruin the experiment. I'll assume no cohorts via the Leadership feat (we don't allow it anyway).
Challenge: run through an entire AP (all of the volumes) with only one party member, a Synthesist Summoner of any core race, built with a 20 point buy.
Post your build here, and how far in they made it, or (if they're as powerful as many seem to think), that they finished it. Consider it an after-market playtest.
I really hope you mean just the combat encounters, becau8se if you are asking for a full play through I don't think you'll get many takers for several months of a solo adventure.
If you do just mean the combat encounters I'll see what I can run though in the next few nights at work for you. (I basically just have to be physically present for my job and thus have LOTS of free time).
@Wiggz Staying solo is kind of the point, so I think that would be preferable.
@Gwyrdallan If just the combat works best for you, that's okay. The option to boost mental and dump physical should mean the class is pretty skill rich, so between that and the assured high charisma, I'd expect it to do well out of combat. Although one might question how people would react to an amalgam of summoner and creature. :P
When you solo a AP do you get all the xp and treasure?
When you solo a AP do you get all the xp and treasure?
technically by the rules, sure, xp and loot is split by party members, so it'd all go to you, but for the sake of the experiment, I assume it'd be best to basically act as if you were getting the stuff you would get from being in a 4-man party
When you solo a AP do you get all the xp and treasure?technically by the rules, sure, xp and loot is split by party members, so it'd all go to you, but for the sake of the experiment, I assume it'd be best to basically act as if you were getting the stuff you would get from being in a 4-man party
That's actually a pretty good question, because a party of 3 would advance faster and a party of five would advance more slowly... the point I would think is whether or not the Synthesist can solo an AP, not whether the Synthesist can solo the AP with one arm tied behind his back... I'd like the OP to chime in here.
That's actually a pretty good question, because a party of 3 would advance faster and a party of five would advance more slowly... the point I would think is whether or not the Synthesist can solo an AP, not whether the Synthesist can solo the AP with one arm tied behind his back... I'd like the OP to chime in here.When you solo a AP do you get all the xp and treasure?technically by the rules, sure, xp and loot is split by party members, so it'd all go to you, but for the sake of the experiment, I assume it'd be best to basically act as if you were getting the stuff you would get from being in a 4-man party
Good catch, I hadn't considered that one. How about half experience (as though it were a 2 person party), that way you'll be ahead of the curve before long, but not as significantly as if you were getting full. As to treasure, keep what you'll use, but ignore the rest, and use a half of the listed gold amount to keep pace with the experience.
I sat down to start building the Synthesist - my first - and I have to say that I'm a little underwhelmed.
I'm a very experienced player of both Summoners and Master Summoners and have played one of each through an entire AP. Thus far, do to action economy and a number of other factors like additional skills and feats, I find both of my builds for those two archetypes superior to what I'm putting together for the Synthesist.
I know the Synthesist is often abused and draws some pretty strong cheese at times, but both my mounted Summoner and my Master Summoner seems to have broader versatility and better action economy - but I've never tried to solo either of those through anything. I'll post the build when I've got it close to being finished.
Ugh, I'm not good at challenges like these, and I'm not in a position to try this, but I'd go with
LEVEL ONE
Race: Gnome, for the CON and CHA (and personal preference)
Eidolon: medium biped; claws on hands, and claws on feet (4 Nat attacks first level for 1 eco point). Then I'd either do the simple thing and boost str+2,
OR hey,
Does it make ant sense at all to take the gnome trait where you're proficient with any weapon you craft? Then spend 1 evo point on adding 8 to a craft skill, and making yourself some exotic weapons? I don't know why this would be useful, but I've always wanted to do this.
Edit: I've found infernal healing to be pretty effective after-combat healing, with a guaranteed +10 HP. I think it'd remain useful up until you're in a position to swap it out.
Ugh, I'm not good at challenges like these, and I'm not in a position to try this, but I'd go with
LEVEL ONE
Race: Gnome, for the CON and CHA (and personal preference)
Eidolon: medium biped; claws on hands, and claws on feet (4 Nat attacks first level for 1 eco point). Then I'd either do the simple thing and boost str+2,
OR hey,
Does it make ant sense at all to take the gnome trait where you're proficient with any weapon you craft? Then spend 1 evo point on adding 8 to a craft skill, and making yourself some exotic weapons? I don't know why this would be useful, but I've always wanted to do this.Edit: I've found infernal healing to be pretty effective after-combat healing, with a guaranteed +10 HP. I think it'd remain useful up until you're in a position to swap it out.
.
I'm going with Half-Elf for the favored class option, the immunity to Sleep (big since it will dismiss the eidolon) and the bonus Skill Focus feat which will serve as the pre-requisite for some Eldritch Heritage feats.
I sat down to start building the Synthesist - my first - and I have to say that I'm a little underwhelmed.
I'm a very experienced player of both Summoners and Master Summoners and have played one of each through an entire AP. Thus far, do to action economy and a number of other factors like additional skills and feats, I find both of my builds for those two archetypes superior to what I'm putting together for the Synthesist.
I know the Synthesist is often abused and draws some pretty strong cheese at times, but both my mounted Summoner and my Master Summoner seems to have broader versatility and better action economy - but I've never tried to solo either of those through anything. I'll post the build when I've got it close to being finished.
Others have noted the difference that action economy makes, that's quite true. I think the stat dumping, large hp total, and the inability to target the summoner separately overcome that in some people's estimation. I'm of opinion that being able to cast while the eidolon full attacks is a more powerful arrangement.
I'm going with Half-Elf for the favored class option, the immunity to Sleep (big since it will dismiss the eidolon) and the bonus Skill Focus feat which will serve as the pre-requisite for some Eldritch Heritage feats.
Good reasoning on half elf. Elf would be a decent choice for the favoured class bonus as well. (At least when you need to get ready quickly)
Although half elf has the advantage of not further lowering a dumped physical, for those rare times that one isn't "suited up".
No class is inherently OP. It all depends on what the table normally allows.
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I don't think i'm going to post anything that hasn't already been posted.
The term "over powered" is at best subjective. What might seem over powered to me, may seem like what is the term? "weak sauce" to others.
I can say, a year and a half ago, I got to play alongside of a synthesist summoner for almost six months in PFS games. I know there are lots of variables like party composition, the "game mastery" of the other players at the table (myself included), but I can say, this character routinely was able to do every other character's job just about. I will admit while playing with this character I grew complacent, knowing if we got in any real trouble, all we had to do was to "whistle up" Sir Godric, and he would mop the floor with whatever we were dealing with.
To me, I suppose, because of my experience, the case for the synthesist being "over powered" has already been made. Perhaps yours is different.
your experiment sounds interesting. I look forward to hearing how it turns out.
No class is inherently OP. It all depends on what the table normally allows.
If you dont allow it it isent OP?
Or did i miss somthing?
No class is inherently OP. It all depends on what the table normally allows.If you dont allow it it isent OP?
Or did i miss somthing?
If a particular group normally allows full stat ancient wyrm dragon characters with class levels and no adjustment, even a full wizard + cleric gestalt wouldn't necessarily be OP. He's saying that different groups have different standards regarding power level.
Results: Well, I just plowed through all the combat in Burnt Offerings. A couple of fights were close (the skeletons at level 1 and the encounter with 2 yeth hounds at once had me 3hp away from dropping the eidolon. Also the Quasit witch encounter took 3 times longer than it had any right to without a ranged weapon. I would rate the first book as difficult but doable with a solo synth. There were a couple of points where one bad save could have ended it, but I got moderately lucky and saves are pretty easy after 4th level.
For the record build was fairly standard: (all AC all the time, str when you run out of AC evolutions), half elf for extra evolution point. Took Power attack and Arcane Strike at 3 and 5 to keep damage up there.
I don't own any APs yet, but I'll try a theoretical march starting with a level 1 module and see how far I get. I suspect that skill challenges and RP would be the primary issues, but there's also the same problem that plagues lone BBEG fights to worry about--action economy and/or one bad initiative roll can take down even the mightiest singular foes.
Also, surviving the first few encounters would cause the synthesist to stay a couple of levels above expectations since he didn't have to share XP with a group.
Adendum: if the shadows in the fort didn't stay in their little room when/if you ran away that would have been an auto-lose. I didn't have magical attacks at that point and got hit for 16 points of STR damage on the first round of that fight.
....He's saying that different groups have different standards regarding power level.No class is inherently OP. It all depends on what the table normally allows.If you dont allow it it isent OP?
Or did i miss somthing?
Exactly.. :)
If those shadows use hit and run tactics, which they are smart enough to do that synth should die. It can't ready an action or have enough combat reflexes to deal with all of them, even if it does have magic weapons.
A little bit of confusion here regarding hit points...
The Synthesist uses the Eidolon's physical stats when fused, including Constitution, and gains the Eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. Does that mean that if the Summoner himself has, say a 14 Constitution, he loses the bonus hit points from his higher Constitution score while fused but gains bonus temporary hit points from the Eidolon's higher Constitution or is this a case where he double dips?
Exactly.. :)....He's saying that different groups have different standards regarding power level.No class is inherently OP. It all depends on what the table normally allows.If you dont allow it it isent OP?
Or did i miss somthing?
Ok that can only be true. But then i will say that the synthesist overshadowes the other martial classes wile having good saves, exelent AC, spells and an versatility that is comparabel to full casters.
In some games, also some i run, that is not a problem but often it is.
At the moment I think I'm looking at doing Second Darkness as my playtest. The build I'm putting together is the build I would probably assemble if I were actually trying to solo the entire AP as opposed to just solo the combat... as such its being built a little more rounded in concept with a higher emphasis on some key skills.
This the the preliminary build, not counting the eidolon evolutions which will, of course, be everything. I'll post that once I get it finished, along with the likely spell list.
Half-Elven 20th level Synthesist
(favored class option)
Attributes: (20 point build)
STR - 8
DEX - 10
CON - 14
INT - 14
WIS - 12
CHA - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
Traits:
World Traveler (+1 on Diplomacy checks, Diplomacy is a class skill)
Eyes and Ears of the City (+1 on Perception checks, Perception is a class skill)
Feats:
1st - Skill Focus: Knowledge - Planes
1st - Extra Evolution
3rd - Arcane Strike
5th - Extra Evolution
7th - Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (Arcane Bond - Familiar)
9th - Improved Familiar (Lyrakien)
11th - Extra Evolution
13th - Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (Extra Arcana)
15th - Power Attack
17th - Quicken Spell
19th - Extra Evolution
Skills:
Knowledge: Planes (1)
Diplomacy (1-20)
Perception (1-20)
Stealth (1-20)
Use Magic Device (2-20)
The Summoner's class skill list is really crap. In addition to the skills listed above I'll almost definitely be taking the Skilled evolution for Stealth.
I'm a little torn on the choice of Improved Familiar - I'm leaning towards the Lyrakien, but also considering the Imp, the Quasit and the Faerie Dragon. At the moment the Lyrakien is in the lead because of its Commune and Silent Image abilities as well as its capacity for Truespeech... but the ability to turn Invisible at will is an awfully useful option. Either way, the choice of Improved Familiar is intended to broaden the character's versatility.
I was just flipping through my ROTRL book, and doing a quick comparison to the stats from my one-time synthesist summoner on an old game. The way I built him revolved around being a battle tank, and I was using Half-Elf FCB and was pumping Extra Evolution as often as I could take it. At early levels it required most monsters to roll a 19 or 20 to hit me. As I scaled, that pretty much continued. Most spells failed against me by nature of my saves being so damn high, and I was able to dispatch all but the largest enemies in only one or two attacks.
I don't think Synth could solo the entire AP, but he would sure as s$&# make most of it look trivial by comparison.
Exactly.. :)....He's saying that different groups have different standards regarding power level.No class is inherently OP. It all depends on what the table normally allows.If you dont allow it it isent OP?
Or did i miss somthing?Ok that can only be true. But then i will say that the synthesist overshadowes the other martial classes wile having good saves, exelent AC, spells and an versatility that is comparabel to full casters.
In some games, also some i run, that is not a problem but often it is.
I get that it can do a lot, but it cant do everything better than everyone, assuming the other players have decent builds. That means the other classes can still contribute.
I was just flipping through my ROTRL book, and doing a quick comparison to the stats from my one-time synthesist summoner on an old game. The way I built him revolved around being a battle tank, and I was using Half-Elf FCB and was pumping Extra Evolution as often as I could take it. At early levels it required most monsters to roll a 19 or 20 to hit me. As I scaled, that pretty much continued. Most spells failed against me by nature of my saves being so damn high, and I was able to dispatch all but the largest enemies in only one or two attacks.
I don't think Synth could solo the entire AP, but he would sure as s%~! make most of it look trivial by comparison.
Honestly, as I build it, I'm still more impressed with both my standard Summoner and my Master Summoner - better action economy and a much wider array of skills, just better versatility all the way around.
I think the Synthesist makes a great Tank, but soloing an AP would require more than being able to take a lot of punishment... my mounted Summoner would defeat a similarly well-built Synthesist in a straight up battle I think while my Master Summoner - well, the PC has a high Charisma and Diplomacy for social situations, a flying eidolon with high Stealth/Perception/Disable Device skills to serve as a scout, a veritable army at his fingertips customizable to any circumstance, buff and utility spells available to him and with a Wand of Invisibility, chances are his opponents may never even know he was there...
It should also be mentioned that AP's are not build to handle super optimized ____, and that can make most encounters look trivial. If a normal synthesis was ran through RotRL it would not have so much of an easy time.
I get that it can do a lot, but it cant do everything better than everyone, assuming the other players have decent builds. That means the other classes can still contribute.Exactly.. :)....He's saying that different groups have different standards regarding power level.No class is inherently OP. It all depends on what the table normally allows.If you dont allow it it isent OP?
Or did i miss somthing?Ok that can only be true. But then i will say that the synthesist overshadowes the other martial classes wile having good saves, exelent AC, spells and an versatility that is comparabel to full casters.
In some games, also some i run, that is not a problem but often it is.
Yes but it very easy starts to look like JLA with the synt being Superman. They are all heroes but one of them is more super than the rest.
Yes but it very easy starts to look like JLA with the synt being Superman. They are all heroes but one of them is more super than the rest.I get that it can do a lot, but it cant do everything better than everyone, assuming the other players have decent builds. That means the other classes can still contribute.Exactly.. :)....He's saying that different groups have different standards regarding power level.No class is inherently OP. It all depends on what the table normally allows.If you dont allow it it isent OP?
Or did i miss somthing?Ok that can only be true. But then i will say that the synthesist overshadowes the other martial classes wile having good saves, exelent AC, spells and an versatility that is comparabel to full casters.
In some games, also some i run, that is not a problem but often it is.
I think the JLA is a very appropriate analogy. On one end of the spectrum there's Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash and Green Lantern... on the other end is Batman, Green Arrow, Elastic Man and Black Canary. The group is clearly asymetrical and yet everyone has a role to fill and the comic remains immensely popular...
I've just never thought it necessary to worship at the altar of 'balance at all costs', and I've been just as comfortable playing one of the big guns as I have the role players.
@ Wiggz Yes, you use the eidolon CON to determine the summoner hp, so long as they're wearing it.
I fully agree that master summoner puts it to shame. (I can't help but picture a dozen lantern archons all converging) I do imagine combat goes much more quickly with only one combatant though. :P
@ Wiggz Yes, you use the eidolon CON to determine the summoner hp, so long as they're wearing it. :P
Still a little confused.
Okay, let's say the Summoner has a Con of 12 (d8+1 HD) and the Eidolon has a Con of 14 (d10+2 HD). The character is 5th level.
Now, when his eidolon isn't out, he has 5d8+5 hit points.
When his eidolon IS out, does he have:
5d8+10 hit points plus 4d10 temporary hit points?
or
5d8 hit points and 4d10+8 temporary hit points?
or
5d8+5 hit points plus 4d10+8 temporary hit points?
or
5d8+10 hit points plus 4d10+8 temporary hit points?
And then what happens after he loses or dismisses his eidolon? Does he gain/lose the bonus hit points gained from the Eidolon's higher CON score in addition to the temporary hit points provided by the eidolon itself?
I'm beginning to see why Synthesists give some people headaches...
Wiggz,
Your last entry is correct. 5d8+10 core HP and 4d10+8 temp HP.
Wiggz,
Your last entry is correct. 5d8+10 core HP and 4d10+8 temp HP.
And would he then lose 5 hit points automatically when dismissing his eidolon?
If those shadows use hit and run tactics, which they are smart enough to do that synth should die. It can't ready an action or have enough combat reflexes to deal with all of them, even if it does have magic weapons.
Oh yeah, but the entry says that they don't leave the room you encounter them in even if you run away. In my playthrough I had nothing that coluld hurt them, and barely managed to stagger out of the room at 3 STR, mostly due to not carrying much that I wasn't willing to lose to the shadows. No way I would have been able to defeat them even if I had a magic weapon, but I did SURvIVE them (due to bad tactics on their part, but those tactics are literally written in to the AP).
For the record build was fairly standard: (all AC all the time, str when you run out of AC evolutions), half elf for extra evolution point. Took Power attack and Arcane Strike at 3 and 5 to keep damage up there.
What were the characters physical stats? You can't take Power attack with a STR under 13, no matter what the strength of your eidolon...
For the record build was fairly standard: (all AC all the time, str when you run out of AC evolutions), half elf for extra evolution point. Took Power attack and Arcane Strike at 3 and 5 to keep damage up there.What were the characters physical stats? You can't take Power attack with a STR under 13, no matter what the strength of your eidolon...
So long as you can stay awake wearing your eidolon for 24 hours, once, you can use it's physical stats to qualify for feats, just like a stat boosting magic item. You simply lose access to the feat when not suited up.
So long as you can stay awake wearing your eidolon for 24 hours, once, you can use it's physical stats to qualify for feats, just like a stat boosting magic item. You simply lose access to the feat when not suited up.For the record build was fairly standard: (all AC all the time, str when you run out of AC evolutions), half elf for extra evolution point. Took Power attack and Arcane Strike at 3 and 5 to keep damage up there.What were the characters physical stats? You can't take Power attack with a STR under 13, no matter what the strength of your eidolon...
That's an interesting loophole. I've never seen that interpretation before.
I remember using that to qualify for something before. It's not a problem.
I think that synthesist becomes easier as you wait for later levels, because then you can start dipping, if that's allowed. Consider, pouncing monk/brawler synthesist oracle. The best part of synthesist is that you can get a buncha defenses and dump physical stats...so maybe we would just need to get CHA to hp (undead race anyone?).
I remember using that to qualify for something before. It's not a problem.
I think that synthesist becomes easier as you wait for later levels, because then you can start dipping, if that's allowed. Consider, pouncing monk/brawler synthesist oracle. The best part of synthesist is that you can get a buncha defenses and dump physical stats...so maybe we would just need to get CHA to hp (undead race anyone?).
I would naturally make the mental stats stronger than the physical ones, but I just can't countenance an outright dumping of them completely. It just feels too cheesy and ruins the concept for me, something I will NOT do purely for mechanical advantage. A spread like I have above: STR - 8, DEX - 10, CON - 14, INT - 14, WIS - 12, CHA - 16 is about where my head would be at... not terribly different from what I would stat out for a Sorcerer or any other sort of Summoner.