So this functions with the same kind of casting as an arcanist? I agree about the charisma dependant thing.
Yeah, totally missed the whole skill thing in the chaisma dependent entry. That'll go.
Yes, arcanist casting mechnic, and as I made this one almost a year ago, the concept predates the arcanist. Just so happens they are now using a mechanic that fits what I want for this one.
a rephrasing might be in order, at first it says it casts without preparing ahead of time, then turns around in the second paragraph and says it prepares spells.
Forgive my tardiness, I've been kinda held up, and don't have much other than the basic outline.
The first restriction is that the Cleric's primary domain must be the Subdomain of the type of Outsider they are linked to (from the APG), which of course has to be in the domain of their deity if they have one. Possible removal of the second Domain. Bonds with Angels are restricted to the Good Domain, and Evil for Qlippoth and Divs, and for Elementals (and Genies?), the Domain of the appropriate element.
I'm not sure where I want to go vis-a-vis Channel Energy. The ideas I have now include:
No Channeling - Not sure if I want to go this route, but definitely doable.
Limited Channeling - The Avatar can channel, but it's not as effective.
Restricted Channeling - Channeling is limited to affecting the bonded outsider and their self. Possibly allow use of channeling for Evolution Surges.
Outsider Bond -- All of the Celestial and Fiendish outsiders, and probably Elementals as well. Elementals may include the "Pure" Elementals, and maybe stuff like Genies, Azers, and other types.
Like a Domain, School, Mystery, or Bloodline, the Outsider Bond varies on the specific creature you choose. Bonding with a Lantern Archon is different than a Solar Angel, Quasit, Barbed Devil, or Cetaceal Agathion. Exactly what each bond entails for both Cleric and Outsider varies, but one near-constant is that the Cleric can manifest the Outsider himself when their level (Cleric or total) equals the creature's CR.
For example: back to the Lantern Archon, First Level would likely be allowing you to fire it's light beam attack. At second level, since you now match the Archon's CR, you can actually call it to your side. Level 3 applies an Evolution point to the Archon, Subsequent leveling applies additional evolution points, access to the Archon's Spell-like abilities, and summoning additional Lantern Archons, who link together and fight alongside the Avatar in a cross between the Options from the Gradius series and the Orbitars from Kid Icarus: Uprising.
Meanwhile, a bond with a Handmaiden Devil would result in the growth of tentacles and acquiring her immunities, and a Cassisian Angel ultimately grows into an entire set of armor.
Other boons across all types include bonuses to certain skills and feats, and access to their spell-like abilities. Ultimately, this would end in a merging with or acquiring the soul of the Avatar, with both Mortal and Outsider being the stronger for it. Of course, what that means for the Avatar depends on who (or what) they bonded to.
I have always think that horn of the valhala's barbarians were worthless at the level a savage skald his able to summon them...
Something more spirit/dead oriented, as the dirge bard, could fit the concept closer imo. The Quipu is the guardian of his tribe memory, and the memory of the dead. You could look to the Ancestor oracle mystery and turn some revelation in a performance like mechanic.
If not, inspire greatness can fit pretty well : the spirits of the fallen ancestors join the fight and posses the body of the young generation, providing them resilience and guiding their blows.
I had thought about that and wanted to see if anyone else found certain performaces I chose that didn't fit.
I took one of the Dirge Bard's performances and this is what it looks like. Just renamed it.
Rise of the Just (Su): At 10th level, a quipu mystic can use his bardic performance to cause the dead bones or bodies of tribal heroes to rise up and move or fight at his command. This ability functions like animate dead, but the created skeletons or zombies remain fully animate only as long as the quipu mystic continues the performance. Once it stops, any created undead collapse into carrion. Bodies or bones cannot be animated more than once using this ability. Unlike animate dead, rise of the just requires no components and does not have the evil descriptor, thus allowing good quipu mystics to use this performance.
Another option is to use one of the following revelations from the Ancestor mystery and make it into a performance. Which would be very easy.
Sacred Council (Su): As a move action, you can call upon your ancestors to provide council. This advice grants you a +2 bonus on any one d20 roll. This effect lasts for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Charisma bonus.
Storm of Souls (Su): You can summon the spirits of your ancestors to attack in a ghostly barrage—their fury creates physical wounds on creatures in the area. The storm has a range of 100 feet and is a 20-foot-radius burst. Objects and creatures in the area take 1d8 hit points of damage for every two oracle levels you possess. Undead creatures in the area take 1d8 points of damage for every oracle level you possess. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage to half. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation. You can use this ability once per day, plus one additional time per day at 11th level and every four levels thereafter.
# Quipu Mystic
Name: Quipu are South Amerindian recording devices (had to look that one up). We refused the name Lin Kuei because it was ethnic Chinese (or maybe just because it was obscure). I personally don't at all mind ethnic names and think quipu mystic is cool. Perhaps this could be the ur-wizard?
As the central idea of this MCA is base upon the Quipu (khipu), we'll be keeping the Quipu Mystic as a the name. We do have a few other MCAs with ethnic names, but they are always combined with an english word.
All the talk about oral traditions is a bit strange, as the quipu are recording devices, effectively script in the form of knots. By definition, a culture that has script does not use oral tradition. Unless English differ in subtle ways from Swedish in how these things are counted. (This has happened before - the English word "steel" and the Swedish "stål" are supposed to mean the same, but there are techno-historical technical differences.)
I've removed mention to oral tradition, so as not to confuse things with the Oral Tradition ability, and changed it to reference tribal lore instead.
Charisma Dependent: I don't think there is any precedent for changing what attribute a skill gains a bonus from, and sorcerers still use Intelligence for Knowledge (Arcana) or Spellcraft. I see no real reason to make an exception here. Quipu mystics are not expert magic theorists or spell researchers, they can survive being at sorcerer levels of proficiency with this.
Moved this so I can address it now. I've changed the entire MCA to Intelligence, including his Bardic Performance. As the arcanist is an Int based prepared/spontaneous caster, I figure we can keep Int as the primary ability. However, I am open to keeping Oral Traditions (bardic performance) Cha based, making the MCa a bit MAD. What do other's think?
Skills: Adding 6 class skills seems a lot. You only add 2 skill points, and the wizard already has the knowledge skills that would seem to be the msot relevant.
True, however, as we are combining a 2 skill point and 6 skill point class, the mid point is 4. When Skill points are within one step of each other (+2 and +4, or +4 and +6) they can select three skills from the secondary class, while MCAs with a larger discrepancy (+2 and +6, or +4 and +8), they get to select six skills. That's the system. If the two were multiclassed in the normal method, he'd get +2 with Wiz skills and +6 with Bard skills. However, you do have a point. Why don't we go +4 and only three bard skills. Middle of the road, as this is an Intelligence based MCA.
Making of quipu: Having cotton be a part of quipu seems a bit over-specific, shouldn't any cord do? Wikipedia mentions llama hair as one material."A quipu can have as many cord as the quipu mystic desires, but may not exceed 100, with each... " This is confusing. "A quipu can have up to 100 cords, with each..." seems more like it.
100 spells is actually quit limiting at higher levels. A 20th level quipu mysic can know 35 spells simultaneously (counting cantrips as half a spell), so he can only have 3 alternates for each spell. I think this can work, just pointing out that it is a real limitation.
Removed the construction material references, and the cord limit. A quipu can have tons of cords in reality. And with the ability to swap spells out, giving a static limit really isn't necesary. Uless others think there should be a limit? My original draft had 200 cords. Thoughts?
Bardic Knowledge: Being Cha-based casters, this is not as useful as it would be to a wizard, but it is still very powerful.
As I said, I've made this an Int based MCA, but kept Bardic Knowledge and removed Lore Master all together, as they seemed redundant and too OP. Bardic Knowledge gives his the right boost as a partial bard, while lore master pushed it over the top. After all, these guys are masters of lore.
Oral tradition: Other than the name being inappropriate, these abilities seem fair. The last one is a bit weak as noted by Kelazan. Compel secrets could use a note on whether it is subtle or not - does the target realize what is happening before the effect hits. Also, can a charmed creature choose to fail its saving throw against this?
Compel Secrets is the True Confessions performance from the Bard's Detective archetype word-for-word.
Also note that the q mystic doesn't actually need any ranks in Perform (Oratory) to use oral tradition at present - you may want to base this on ranks in Perform (Oratory) rather than level, with a maximum = class level (for multiclass characters).
Starfox, it states that it is the Bardic Performance ability. Whatever the reqs are to use that class feature are no different than the bard. He's just restricted to only the Perform (oratory) skill, no others.
Lore Master: Having this and bardic knowledge is too much. Perhaps if it came at levels 12 and 17, it would give the 'mystic some high-level abilities, other abilities stop coming after level 10.
Removed Lore Master, as stated above.
Power Level: Overall, with 4 skill points, 6 extra skills, bardic knowledge, and lore master, this has very high noncombat utility for a 9-level caster class with the wizard list. I feel it needs to lean either more towards bard (more utility, 6 levels of spells) or wizard/arcanist (less utility).
He's 9th level caster, 4 skill point, and only 3 skill choices from the Bard.
As a final note, maybe we should put this off until we know more about the arcanist - it is hard to balance this against something that is as unknown as that class.
It's doesn't matter. The only change that would occur with the arcanist is the actual spells perepared or spells per day tables. Those can be changed at any time after the official release of the ACG. This MCA is a sound build, and the spellcasting mechanic won't change with the arcanist, only the tables as I've noted.
Now, further conversation on the QUIPU MYSTIC.
Looking over the swaps, I originally had Oral Traditions (bardic performance + 4 performances) replacing arcane school, and Lore Master was replacing the bonus feats. However, witout Lore Master, that leaves 4 Bonus Feats. Well, 3, as Ive decided to take Well-Versed from the bard and will swap out one Bonus feat for that.
Now for the BIG question: is swapping Arcane School for the Bardic Performance ability plus 4 performances a fair swap straight across? If not, we have 3 remaining bonus feats we can add to the swap.
An Arcane School grants 1 extra spell slot per spell level to cast a school spell in each day (up to 9 extra spells of 1st-9th level). Plus, it grants a two 1st level abilities, usually one with a 3 + Int mod uses per day, and then a 6th or 8th level power.
Easily, I can see the uses per day power as equal to he bardic performace ability (rounds per day) plus the lowest level performace, which in this case is the Tribal Enemy ability. The other two powers would swap for two of the other performances, say Inspire competence, and Compell Secrets. That leaves one additional performance to swap out 9 spells, which I think is a lot to swap for a performance.
Really, I think the four performances, the bardic performance feature and even Well-Versed could all swap out Arcane School, leaving the 4 bonus feats. However, I am open to what every one else thinks. I'd be fine still swapping the whole Bardic Performacne ensemble for Arcane School and 1 bonus feat for Well versed, leaving 3 bonus feats open.
Thoughts?
Forgive my tardiness, I've been kinda held up, and don't have much other than the basic outline....
Well, we have a lot to work with. Let me look over your info, and then look at the two classes and see what sort of swap otions we have.
Do you want a full caster or hybrid caster Clr/Sum? I would suggest a hybrid caster, as it gives us a lot more room to work with. A full caster will limit us greatly, though, we can still see what we can do. Another option is to pull this off the thread and converse via email until we get a solid MCA concept and build. Your choice. That's what we did with Orelius's Bonded Warmage.
# Quipu Mystic
I vote for Charisma with Oral Tradition. Nothing better than a little MADness to balance a full-caster.
About your Rise of the Just...I'm not sure. This is very circumstantial and a bit strange. You need an actual corpse to animate dead, but you can only maintain it a limited number of round. So, you need to have an actual corpse on the battlefield and rise it on the spot...and it is supposed to be the corpse of a lost hero according to the fluff of the text. Animate dead doesn't seam to work very well with the performance mechanic here.
However, it could be more like a «summon ghost» thing. Maintaining the performance could allow to create and control a certain /scaling number of Spiritual Ally, as the spell, or even a single ghost, skeletal champion or another undead NPC (keep the non-evil part of the ability), as a temporary (and defined) cohort (the level of this undead NPC is open to debate) that appear when the performance is going (we are closer to your original barbarians, but a potentially stronger and more flavorful imo).
# Quiåu Mystic
Compel secrets could use a note on whether it is subtle or not - does the target realize what is happening before the effect hits. Also, can a charmed creature choose to fail its saving throw against this?Compel Secrets is the True Confessions performance from the Bard's Detective archetype word-for-word.
Well, no reason we have to remain as poorly polished as Pazio, eh? :)
More seriously, by calling this compel, you give the impression it is something mind-affecting rather than a deductive ability. This gives the impression that it is on-your-face obvious. The standard rule on something with a will save is that if you make the save, you notice something, and that should apply here as well as in the original.
Class skills: As noted in the writers guidelines, skills must be handled with care.
Also note that the q mystic doesn't actually need any ranks in Perform (Oratory) to use oral tradition at present - you may want to base this on ranks in Perform (Oratory) rather than level, with a maximum = class level (for multiclass characters).Starfox, it states that it is the Bardic Performance ability. Whatever the reqs are to use that class feature are no different than the bard. He's just restricted to only the Perform (oratory) skill, no others.
From 3.5 to Pathfinder, the bard changed from having sill ranks in a perform skill be mandatory for bardic music to the versatile performance model, where bards get rewarded fro having perform skills. Stick to carrot. But ATs building off bard rarely keep versatile performance, so they either need a new carrot or get the stick back. Perhaps some other class ability can be made to key of an oratory roll?
Swapping things: I find going for feat-equivalents usually helps out.
Arcane school is full of concealed entries. It adds one spell arcane slots per level and gives 2 abilities, but the first of those is generally very weak. This is very hard to evaluate, actually, as the spell slots have diminishing returns on top of what the wizard already has. I'd say about 5 feat-equivalents, but could be more.
Familiar gains a lot of pretty minor abilities. I'd say 2 FE. By forcing the quipu mystic to take the arcane bond you are weakening the ability (by making it less flexible) and also putting the caster's spellbook at risk by making it a sunder target.
Bardic Knowledge gives a total skill bonus of +10 over 20 levels, to a whole bunch of skills. It takes quite some time to get there. Still quite powerful - 4 FE perhaps.
Lore master is also tricky. But the simplest metric it is 3 (mentioned 4 times), but just gaining additional uses seems a bit weak. Say 2 FE.
Bardic performances are a solid 1FE each, more for those that develop significantly over levels (inspire courage). They also have diminishing returns (can only use one, shared pool of rounds/day) but that doesn't apply until you have many of them.
Skill points per day are rather straightforward - 20 points to divide among skills over 20 levels are about 4 FE. The number of class skills is generally related to the number of skill points, so I generally ignore the FE contribution from that. Note that advanced race guide gives a point value on skill points that is very much lower than this - more like 1 FE.
Applying this metric to your swaps:
Arcane School for the Bardic Performance works (5 FE -> 4FE)
Bonus feats for Lore Master is more than fair. (4 -> 2)
You also reduce arcane bond in utility (-1 FE)
That leaves us with 4 points for bardic knowledge. So far the swaps are about even.
Then there are the 2 additional class skills, and those really are not accounted for.
Sorry if the spoiler got to be a bit of a wall of text.
#Quipu Mystic
Ooooh boy. Well, El, you know Bard and Wizard are my fave classes (the Arcanist is coming in a VERY DARN CLOSE third, now :3) and so I've got a -lot- to say here.
On the spells known:
On the spellcasting method:
On the spells per day:
On the arcane bond:
On the Bardic Music:
Tribal Enemy- keeps Int important, allows a broad bonus for allies. The only issue here is that this is an Insight bonus, meaning it's very easy to stack onto other buff types. I'd change it to Morale.
Compel Secrets- Bluff/Sense motive, Detect Magic, and any one of a variety of low-level spells. Any personality-minded bard, cleric, sorcerer or wizard can already do this, you've merely made it into a complicated ability- this doesn't sit well with me. (YES, I am aware it's part of another archetype elsewhere. That does not change my opinion whatsoever.)
Song of the Fallen- cool, saves you from grabbing Summon Monster spells. I can be happy with this.
My thoughts overall:
Final rundown:
The knots are just a not, IMO.
Compel Secrets should be changed.
This either needs to FEEL like a wizard, or be made sorcerer/bard.
#Quipu Mystic
This either needs to FEEL like a wizard, or be made sorcerer/bard.
According to me, this guy feel like a wizard. He learns spell from Knowledge, not from his blood, and hides his magical secrets in a unique sneaky spellbook (knots). He's a social, community oriented wizard, but he still more a scholar than a supernatural blood caster.
Another idea to put in queue... The Frenzied Apostle (Barbarian/Cleric).
And the Witch Hunter (Ranger/Witch).
Loooking at the Revised ACG Playtest, put me way way way down the queue for a Insightful Murderist/Intuitive Killer/Educated Butcher (Slayer/Investigator)…
The Investigator's Studied Combat and Studied Strike are perfect for the Slayer. :)
Another idea to put in queue... The Frenzied Apostle (Barbarian/Cleric).
And the Witch Hunter (Ranger/Witch).
Well, make sure you check out the Arcane Venator (Inq/Wiz) and Witchhunter (Inq/Witch) to avoid conceptual double up, though if sufficiently different mechanically I'd be happy…. You could always draw on your Witch Hound inquisitor archetype from Wayfinder #6… ;)
Same goes for the Rampant Iconoclast (Barbarian/Inquisitor) - Elghinn - that MCA was finished on the last thread at least - can you post it to the wiki?
# Quipu Mystic
@Raider - nice insightful comments. As for the feel, it doesn't feel too removed from a wizard thematically for me, just a tribal wizard that has a funky spellbook of knots. Nothing about the flavor resembles a Sorceror (yep, I'm sticking to that spelling!), so if the mechanics are bugging you then that is something Elghinn may need to address.
# Dreadmasque
I'm happy with this version. We can always revisit the cantrips later to see if there needs to be a flat 3/day or 3/day per guise...
I am also fine with the quipu being wizard-like. Basically, the quipu is an alternate medium for a spell book, with the class having added class features extending the theme.
Did a count on my site for what could qualify as a MCA. Many of these duplicate MCAs already on the wiki. No need to change the queue I just like to brag a bit. :)
- Warrior Poet Ranger/Bard
- Rage Magus Magus/Barbarian (/sorcerer)
- Saint of Sinners Rogue/Cleric
- Spellsword Fighter/Magus (/wizard)
- Domain Oracle Oracle/Cleric
- Mystic Dancer Bard/Monk* - this is actually playtested quite a bit
- Fili (or Ur-bard) Bard/Druid*
- Crafty Magus Magus/Rogue*
- Mountebank Rogue/Wizard*
- Battle Sorcerer Magus/Sorcerer*
Those marked * are duplicates of already existing MCAs, and in several cases quite close to the existing MCA. The Domain Oracle is too much oracle to be a full MCA, but could probably still work work. The strong candidates are the ones currently in the queue: warrior poet, rage magus, saint of sinners, and spellsword.
...Same goes for the Rampant Iconoclast (Barbarian/Inquisitor) - Elghinn - that MCA was finished on the last thread at least - can you post it to the wiki?
Done! So much up in the air I sometimes forget what needs to go on and has.
# Dreadmasque
I'm happy with this version. We can always revisit the cantrips later to see if there needs to be a flat 3/day or 3/day per guise...
Then we'll call the Dreadmasque done (until final MCP approval) and move on.
Well, make sure you check out the Arcane Venator (Inq/Wiz) and Witchhunter (Inq/Witch) to avoid conceptual double up, though if sufficiently different mechanically I'd be happy…. You could always draw on your Witch Hound inquisitor archetype from Wayfinder #6…Another idea to put in queue... The Frenzied Apostle (Barbarian/Cleric).
And the Witch Hunter (Ranger/Witch).
Huh-huh, good point OSW, but none of the three has to worry. This Witch Hunter will find and slay magic beasts and dangers in the wild created by magic (he's the Hunter who killed the Big Bad Wolf).
As for the Frenzied Apostle, I'll make sure that it doesn't be in the Rampant Iconoclast's way. She's a dread figure possessed by a godly force when raging (in Italian, "invasato" or "ossesso").
@Bardess: Both sound like cool concepts!
I'll post a reworked version of the quipu mystic sometime Tuesday.
Here's the reworked Quipu Mystic.
The quintessential wizard is most often portrayed as a book smart, scroll-wielding paragon of magical might. However, there are wizards from the far-flung lands beyond civilization who record their spells within the very oral traditions of their tribes. These quipu mystics serve as both guardians and puissant wilders of their tribal magic, and keepers of the ancient lore of their people. Through the recitation of his oral traditions, the quipu mystic can create magical effects that bolster tribal warriors, compel true confessions, or call forth fallen heroes to strike down his enemies. Although many view quipu mystics as eccentric wildmen, they nonetheless possess great power and knowledge that benefit their tribes or those who associate with them.
Primary Class: Wizard.
Secondary Class: Bard.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The quipu mystic may select three bard skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal wizard class skills, one of which must be Perform (oratory). The quipu mystic gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The quipu mystic is proficient with all simple weapons. A quipu mystic is not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a quipu mystic’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.
Spellcasting: A quipu mystic casts arcane spells drawn from the wizard spell list. However, every quipu mystic spell has a verbal component (reciting), and can never benefit from the Silent Spell metamagic feat. A quipu mystic can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Quipu Mystic. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
Like a wizard, a quipu mystic must prepare his spells in advance, but he can cast any spell he has prepared at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level. A quipu mystic may prepare any spells that are knotted into his quipu. A quipu mystic must get 8 hours of sleep and spend 1 hour reciting his ancient oral traditions in order to regain his daily allotment of spells. A quipu mystic otherwise learns, prepares and casts spells as a wizard equal to his quipu mystic level.
Quipus: A quipu mystic does not record his spells in a spellbook. Instead, he recalls them by reciting the ancient tribal lore handed down to him through the generations, as recorded on his quipu. The quipu, also called “talking knots”, is a mystic device upon which the quipu mystic records the oral history, tales, and mystical spells of his people. A quipu is a special collar that consists of colored, spun, and plied cords. Each cord contains a sequence of knots, the number, type, and design of which conveys a specific spell. A quipu can have many cords, with each containing one spell of 1st level or higher, or two 0–level spells.
A quipu mystic begins play with all 0–level wizard spells, plus three 1st–level spells of his choice. The quipu mystic also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the quipu. These are each knotted into his quipu, and become part of the daily recitation of his tribal lore.
At each new quipu mystic level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new quipu mystic level) and adds them to his quipu. At any time, an quipu mystic can also add spells found on scrolls, in another wizards’ spellbooks, or directly from another spellcaster (arcane or divine) through oral recitation. A quipu mystic can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard’s spell list, but may learn a spell from another spellcaster if it is on both of their spell lists.
To learn a spell from another spellcaster, the quipu mystic must spend 10 minutes for each level of the spell, reciting it with the spellcaster. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 10–minute increments. Once the required time has been invested, the quipu mystic must make a Spellcraft skill check (15 + spell level) to see if he has learned the spell. If he fails, he must wait at least 1 week before he tries again. If he succeeds, he can add the new spell as a cord with the appropriate knots to his quipu. While a wizard can have multiple spellbooks from which to study his spells, a quipu mystic cannot have more than one quipu at a time.
A quipu mystic must prepare his spells in advance (see Table: Quipu Mystic Spells Prepared), but he can cast any spell he has prepared for the day at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level. To prepare his spells, the quipu mystic must wear his quipu and perform the daily recitation of his tribal lore, at which time, all his spells are brought to his memory. This allows him to prepare any spell that has been knotted into his quipu, up to his daily allotment of spells prepared, as shown on Table: Quipu Mystic Prepared Spells. The quipu mystic must get 8 hours of rest and recite his tribal lore for 1 hour per day to regain his daily allotment of spells. The quipu otherwise functions as and replaces the wizard’s spellbook.
Arcane Bond (Sp): At 1st level, a quipu mystic forms a powerful bond with his quipu. The quipu is always masterwork quality. It occupies a neck slot and must be worn to have effect. This ability otherwise functions as a bonded object from the wizard’s arcane bond ability.
Bardic Knowledge (Ex): At 1st level, a quipu mystic gains the bard’s bardic knowledge ability. This ability replaces scribe scrolls.
Oral Tradition: At 1st level, a quipu mystic gains the bard’s bardic performance ability, except that the quipu mystic can only use the Perform (oratory) skill to create his magical effects. He can choose no other Perform skills. The quipu mystic gains inspire competence at 4th level, and the following additional bardic performances, as indicated on Table: Quipu Mystic.
Tribal Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a quipu mystic who has identified a creature with a Knowledge check appropriate to its type can use this performance to share strategies for defeating it with allies in combat. The quipu mystic and any allies within 30 feet gain a +1 insight bonus to AC and on attack rolls and saving throws against extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities used by creatures of that specific kind of monster (e.g., frost giants, not all giants or all humanoids). This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every six levels thereafter. This language-dependent ability requires visual and audible components.
Knowledge of the Ancestors (Su): At 3rd level, a quipu mystic can enter a trance that allows him to search through time to recall some bit of forgotten lore or information. This effect requires 3 rounds of continuous bardic performance. He can retry any Knowledge skill check he has made within the past minute, gaining an insight bonus on the check equal to his Intelligence modifier.
Council of Elders (Su): At 9th level, a quipu mystic can use his bardic performance to call upon his ancestors to provide council. This performance duplicates the effect of the commune spell, except that the effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the quipu mystic’s Charisma modifier. This effect consumes 5 rounds of bardic performance. This ability requires audible components.
Spirit of the Tribal Champion (Su): At 14th level, a quipu mystic can summon the spirit of a great warrior ancestor to guard and champion him in battle. This performance duplicates the effect of a summon monster spell, except the quipu mystic summons forth his choice of a 10th level barbarian, fighter, or ranger. The warrior arrives with the starting equipment for an NPC of its class. The Hit Dice of the warrior increases by 1 for every 2 quipu mystic levels. This effect consumes 7 rounds of bardic performance. This ability requires audible components.
Wrath of the Ancients (Su): At 18th level, a quipu mystic can use is bardic performance to summon the spirits of his ancestors to attack in a ghostly barrage—their fury creates physical wounds on creatures in the area. The storm has a range of 100 feet and is a 20-foot-radius burst. Objects and creatures in the area take 1d8 hit points of damage for every two quipu mystic levels he possesses. Undead creatures in the area take 1d8 points of damage for every quipu mystic level you possess. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage to half. This effect consumes 10 rounds of bardic performance. This ability requires audible components.
A quipu mystic use his bardic performance as a bard equal to his quipu mystic level. This ability and well-versed replace arcane school and bonus feats.
Well-Versed (Ex): At 2nd level, a quipu mystic gains the bard’s well-versed ability.
Table: Quipu Mystic
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Arcane bond, bardic knowledge, cantrips, 3 2 — — — — — — — —
oral traditions, tribal enemy +1
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Well-versed 4 3 — — — — — — — —
3rd +1 +1 +3 +3 Knowledge of the ancients 4 4 — — — — — — — —
4th +2 +1 +4 +4 Inspire competence +2 4 4 2 — — — — — — —
5th +2 +1 +4 +4 Tribal enemy +2 4 4 3 — — — — — — —
6th +3 +2 +5 +5 4 4 4 2 — — — — — —
7th +3 +2 +5 +5 4 4 4 3 — — — — — —
8th +4 +2 +6 +6 Inspire competence +3 4 4 4 4 2 — — — — —
9th +4 +3 +6 +6 Council of elders 4 4 4 4 3 — — — — —
10th +5 +3 +7 +7 4 4 4 4 4 2 — — — —
11th +5 +3 +7 +7 Tribal enemy +3 4 4 4 4 4 3 — — — —
12th +6/+1 +4 +8 +8 Inspire competence +4 4 4 4 4 4 4 2 — — —
13th +6/+1 +4 +8 +8 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 — — —
14th +7/+2 +4 +9 +9 Spirit of the tribal champion 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 2 — —
15th +7/+2 +5 +9 +9 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 — —
16th +8/+3 +5 +10 +10 Inspire competence +5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 2 —
17th +8/+3 +5 +10 +10 Tribal enemy +4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 —
18th +9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Wrath of the anceints 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 2
19th +9/+4 +6 +11 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3
20th +10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Inspire competence +6 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
Table: Quipu Mystic Spells Prepared
Class Spells per Day
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 4 2 — — — — — — — —
2nd 5 2 — — — — — — — —
3rd 5 3 — — — — — — — —
4th 6 3 1 — — — — — — —
5th 6 4 2 — — — — — — —
6th 7 4 2 1 — — — — — —
7th 7 5 3 2 — — — — — —
8th 8 5 3 2 1 — — — — —
9th 8 5 4 3 2 — — — — —
10th 9 5 4 3 2 1 — — — —
11th 9 5 5 4 3 2 — — — —
12th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 — — —
13th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 — — —
14th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 — —
15th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 — —
16th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1
19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2
20th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3
I focused primarily on the ability to access lore and tribal spirits for the performances, and they're Cha based, while spellcasting is Int based. So this guys a little MAD.
Now, I've swapped out Arcane School and all bonus feats for Well-Versed and Oral Tradition (with all the preformances).
I'm open to anything else that would make this more "wizardy" if people think it needs it.
Stuff
OK, having looked over your info, I think you have a very interesting concept, so I have the following suggestions for a design approach to your MCA.
1) Name = Planar Avatar, Planes Channeler, Vicar of the Planes, other suggestions?
2) I think hybrid caster will be required for this (6th level spells), but we'll retain the +1 domain spell from a single domain (see below).
3) Channel Energy = Keep this as is, but either uses can be spent to summon your avatar, or have a separate ability with uses per day, that summons the avatar or an aspect of one for 1 minute per level. This ability would be akin to the summoner's summon monster ability. Either way, when the avatar is summoned, in whatever manifestation we decide on, he can't use his Channel Energy ability, much like a summoner can't use summon monster ability with his eidolon present. This will be a big balancing factor.
4) Planar Bond = this will replace domains plus spontaneous casting. The Bond will grant 1 domain (alignement or elemental), plus some additional things for loss of the other domain. Will likely, in part, also be a swap for the Summon Avatar Ability, but we'll see. Just want to get the general powers and flavor nailed down first. Specific spellcasting and swaps can be figured out later in the balancing process.
4) Summon Avatar (ala summon monster) , except either we...
A) Allow the MCA to actually assume the form of an outsider of the appropriate CR. This would be the easiest, as we can just use the Summon Monster list as a source, then he assumes the appropriate form, keeping his normal HP, skills, BAB while in the form, plus other class features, except channel energy, and possibly loss of spells during that time too, as he would gain all the special attacks and qualities of the new form.
OR
B) As you explained, he just gains certain aspects of the outsider. In this case, we would need to create a "School/Bloodline/Order" type listing of specific abilities that the MCA gains or can select when he summons his avatar. For example, an early ability could be the Lantern Archon's light beam attack, or something similar. either way, they'd be drawn from a variety of common outsiders, grouped according to type and subtype, and accessible dependent upon the MCA's alignment. So, we would either make it simple, with A) only 5 general Planar Bonds tied to Celestials (good), Fiends (evil), Proteans (chaotic), Inevitables (lawful), and Elementals, or B) make more specific ones tied to subtypes, such as Angels, Azata, Archons, Demons, Daemons, Devils, Elementals (air/earth/fire/water), etc.
5) We'll allow the MCA to choose if he wants the Alignment Channel feat or anything else, via normal feat selection. Another possiblility is to include in each Planar Bond a list of Bonus Feats that can be chosen? Just some thoughts.
Anyways, that how I envision tying in all the different aspects you suggested.
EDIT: Oh! Also...
6) Apotheosis = At 20th, the MCA bonds with it's avatar in one of 2 ways, depending on how we have the avatar work mechanically;
A) If it's a summoning of the actual creature, then at 20th the bond is permanent, and the MCA can change form between normal self and the avatar as just like a druid can wild shape, but no limit to the number of times per day.
OR
B) If the MCA just gains aspects of the creature as bond powers, then make it so that he can assume the full form of an outsider of the appropriate CR and type/subtype X minutes per day, not consecutive.
Both are similar but different. OK, that's all, everyone consider all this. Especially SAMAS, as it's his MCA.
#Quipu Mystic
Other than compel secrets, none of my concerns were addressed; so I'll just point up to my previous post.
Kelazan- consider it in play, not just paper. What about this is going to seem more wizard than a Sage bloodline sorcerer? That it has a variant, solitary and heavily limited spellbook? (Which is a complete doublepunch to certain sensitive areas, as I mentioned above... ouch :c)
# Avatar ***
About the Summon Avatar, we could base the class ability on the beast shape / wild shape / elemental body progression.
What I mean by this, it's the creation of a «Summon avatar» virtual spell that is emulated as a spell like ability by our character. We should write the ability modifiers and the potential special ability gained at each level to accommodate the outsider list. This also allow our Avatar to choose any outsider, not just the small amount listed in summon monster, and it is also more «pathfinderish» since total polymorph effect
are much rarer than in 3.5.
We can open this ability list to bonus that are not normally gained by polymorph effect, like spell resistance or even some outsiders aura. We are not stuck with the limit of previous content, but we are following the same pattern as for other pathfinder material by approaching the subject by this angle, similar to the druid, who is actually the only class to change shape to emulate specific creature's abilities.
I worked something up, if anyone wants to work with me on it
Beast Bound Ranger
Of course MCA can have it, i just have to finish it by thursday for a campaign i'm playing.
the idea is simply
Ranger primary
Magus (bladebound) secondary
but it's an animal companion instead of a black blade.
It gains mental stats and casts spells from your prepared spell slots in the form of spell strike and spell combat.
you and the beast share a mind, so spells like dominate person cast on you might be assisted in being shaken off by the animal companion, but if they succeed then you both become dominated and fight along side each other as a team (But still kill whoever the caster tells you to ect)
I'm trying to incorporate the Skirmisher archetype into the animal companion as well, using it as a psuedo-magus arcane pool. but i can't figure out what to replace to make it fair)
#Raiderrpg RE: Quipu Mystic
On the spells known:
This is both the worst of the sorcerer and the worst of the wizard. A hard limitation AND the possibility of loss. Either allow them multiple strings, or don't use strings at all.
On the spellcasting method:
The required vocal component can be considered, in balancing, to be the equivalent of one opposition school; or at least such is my estimation.
On the spells per day:
Makes it feel like a Sorcerer, having the spontaneous set-up and ninth level casting. Not feeling very bard yet, but more 'medicine man'.
On the arcane bond:
Effectively +1 spell of highest level per day. Also making the quipu twice as important and adding a skill tax (a small one, most mages max spellcraft anyway.) Not much for me to say here.
On the Bardic Music:
Oh, HERE is the bard part. And you had me thinking this was a sorcerer variant, too!
Tribal Enemy- keeps Int important, allows a broad bonus for allies. The only issue here is that this is an Insight bonus, meaning it's very easy to stack onto other buff types. I'd change it to Morale.
Compel Secrets- Bluff/Sense motive, Detect Magic, and any one of a variety of low-level spells. Any personality-minded bard, cleric, sorcerer or wizard can already do this, you've merely made it into a complicated ability- this doesn't sit well with me. (YES, I am aware it's part of another archetype elsewhere. That does not change my opinion whatsoever.)
Song of the Fallen- cool, saves you from grabbing Summon Monster spells. I can be happy with this.
My thoughts overall:
I think this would be far better to use as a Sorcerer/Bard archetype. I get the flavor in making it a wizard, but with the high charisma focus it isn't going to matter that you've done so.
Final rundown:
The knots are just a not, IMO.
Compel Secrets should be changed.
This either needs to FEEL like a wizard, or be made sorcerer/bard.
# Quipu Mystic.
Still concerned that the synergy between Int wizard spellcasting and bardic knowledge is too good. I think the lore master abilites of the bard would be less disruptive that bardic knowledge. Otherwise this now looks pretty balanced except for details of oral tradition.
Again, this class does not really rely on oral tradition - it does after all have a written record. Call it "Tribal Tradition" or some some such instead? This is merely verbage, but I feel it matters. The amerindian cultures that used quipu were very civilized even if they were low-tech. Definitely not oral cultures, that would not have sufficed to administrate their empires.
Tribal Enemy giving an insight AC bonus is probably over the top. Taking a leaf from the new classes now on playtest, it should probably be a deflection bonus, or not at all. AC is very sensitive and has escalating returns - just a few points of AC increase on top of the best AC classes can make them virtually hit-proof. For a wizard-lookalike to give a save boost is fitting. To give an AC boost is outside the wizard role.
Knowledge of the Ancestors effectively adds Int to a knowledge skill twice. Way too much. I could live with +Cha. Or see below for a completely different suggestion. That you have to spend three rounds to re-roll and you have to do it within one minute gives this a nice degree of tension.
Spirit of the Tribal Champion: This should be spell-like, so that it can be dispelled. Also, it should point to some standard array or attributes. Is there 10th level example character in the PRD you can use? This last consideration makes advancing the class level of the summon problematic - you need complete stats for each level. Having the player of the q mystic design his own summons is way too flexible.
Not fond of Wraith of the Ancients - too much of a bardic fireball, and the class already knows fireball.
Also, the class still lacks a reason to actually take ranks in Perform (Oratory). It needs either a stick (minimum ranks to gain abilities) or carrot (some abilities based on oratory skill bonus). For starters, Knowledge of the Ancestors could use a Perform (Oratory) check in place of the failed knowledge check. And how about something like this:
Eye of the Ancestors (Su): At 3rd level, a quipu mystic can ask his ancients to identify a creature for him. This requires one round of oral tradition and allows a Perform (Oratory) check to identify a creature, as if it was the relevant knowledge skill.
Knowledge of the Ancestors (Su): At 9th level, a quipu mystic can enter a trance that allows him to search through time to recall some bit of forgotten lore or information. This effect requires 3 rounds of continuous bardic performance. He can retry any Knowledge skill check he has made within the past minute, using his Perform (Oratory) skill bonus in place of his knowledge skill bonus.
Then push the other performances up in level to make room, kill wrath of the ancients, and suddenly you have a reason to actually take Perform (Oratory) skill.
# Avatar (Samas MCA)
To me, this feels like it should work similarly to a Summoner/Synthesist, but over much shorter periods of time. You effectively replace yourself with the avatar for limited periods of time. The rest of the class would be like a cleric limited to spells of level 0-6.
@Elghinn
Re: Spellbook. There's no comparison between the Arcanist (who can have multiple spellbooks and no limit on spells known) and the mystic. One is effectively a sorcerer with a spellbook, the other completely avoids spell scribing costs and at current has no mechanic to regain a lost set of knots; and that is also a forced arcane bond. Also, the fact this guy can have an arcane bond without dumping in two feats. There's a reason the Arcanist can't get one so easily- even their school understanding ability calls it out :P
Please, stop comparing it to the arcanist; it's like comparing a rogue to the cleric because they have the same attack bonus.
Re: Insightful Bonus. It still states Insightful in your last write-up.
Re: "If something is wrong tell me, but you better give some suggestions as to how to change it, and a good reason behind it too."
My inability to come up with a better solution off hand does not invalidate my opinions. There is no 'better' here, and I'll ask you not to make demands. As for the good reasons, I gave such.
At any rate...
I'll ask you to seriously reconsider changing the knots. At is, there's no reason they couldn't have every spell of each spell level already in there at the start of a campaign without the GM just going Rule 0- no cost means they can go nuts. Plus, it's an arcane bond, which effectively gives this guy +1 of any spell he has in his knots. That is EXTREMELY powerful for a wizard (perhaps the biggest buff pathfinder has given a class), and even more so for a character with a secondary 'known' mechanic. It effectively negates the weakness of having less spells 'known'.
The combination of the two is... unbelievably powerful. I know this was not your intent, but it is the effect.
@Elghinn
Re: Spellbook. There's no comparison between the Arcanist (who can have multiple spellbooks and no limit on spells known) and the mystic. One is effectively a sorcerer with a spellbook, the other completely avoids spell scribing costs and at current has no mechanic to regain a lost set of knots; and that is also a forced arcane bond. Also, the fact this guy can have an arcane bond without dumping in two feats. There's a reason the Arcanist can't get one so easily- even their school understanding ability calls it out :P
I totally forgot to include the whole cost of adding spells. I guess I was thinkning htat it was obvious. But, with the cords and knots, there'll need to be some explanation as to the costs of adding spells. Really, the quipu is supposed to be special, so adding spells would cost the same as adding spells to a spellbook. That cost would include special material for the cord and "scribing" the spells as knots into each cord. They would be elaborate, so as to differentiate the cords from each other.
Now, wat do you mean by "the fact this guy can have an arcane bond without dumping in two feats"? What feats are you talking about?
Please, stop comparing it to the arcanist; it's like comparing a rogue to the cleric because they have the same attack bonus.
I'm refering the casting mechnic, not the classes or or their class features.
Re: Insightful Bonus. It still states Insightful in your last write-up.
Oops.
Re: "If something is wrong tell me, but you better give some suggestions as to how to change it, and a good reason behind it too."
My inability to come up with a better solution off hand does not invalidate my opinions. There is no 'better' here, and I'll ask you not to make demands. As for the good reasons, I gave such.
Then say that you have no solutions. That in itself lets me know you've considered things but have found nothing suitable. Otherwise I just assume you're criticising without any constructive feedback. Not having a solution is as valid as giving alternate solutions.
I'll ask you to seriously reconsider changing the knots. At is, there's no reason they couldn't have every spell of each spell level already in there at the start of a campaign without the GM just going Rule 0- no cost means they can go nuts. Plus, it's an arcane bond, which effectively gives this guy +1 of any spell he has in his knots. That is EXTREMELY powerful for a wizard (perhaps the biggest buff pathfinder has given a class), and even more so for a character with a secondary 'known' mechanic. It effectively negates the weakness of having less spells 'known'.
The combination of the two is... unbelievably powerful. I know this was not your intent, but it is the effect.
Obviously not my intent. It's all about the details, one of which I apparently missed. Spell cost. Now that you've explained that issue, I have no problem fixing it. There are two options here.
1) Adding spells to the quipu were supposed to be equal cost to adding them to a spellsbook. Therefore, he'd not be able to add spells to his quipu "carte blanche", he'd still have to invest costs into his quipu. If this helps mitigate the issue with the spells perpared and the spontaneous casting of those prepared spell, then great. If not, what else would help with that? I would like to utilize the arcanist spellcasting mechanic in this, but if it really won't work, then we'll go to option 2.
2) We remove the spells known aspect. The point was to have the quipu function like a spellbook, but not be a spellbook. I can make the quipu function like a witch's familiar, in that the quipu can have spells added to it (at spell cost which is included in the addition of the cord and the complex knotting). It doesn't "store" the spells, but the knots provide a mental trigger if you will, allowing him to recall the spells, which would be like reading a form of short hand. Anyway, recalling the spells comes from his reciting of his tribal lore, but he would need his quipu to do so. Then he would use the normal wizards spells per day, and just prepare normally.
@Arcane Bond
Are you saying with your comments regarding arcane bond that he shouldn't have an arcane bond? That's it's OP? Just trying to clarify. I personally don't see the issue that he has one, as this is a wizard primary.
@Bardic Knowledge
Starfox has issue with Bardic Knowledge vs. Lore Master. What do you think? is Bardic Knowledge less fitting/or more OP than Lore Master. I'm fine either way.
@Performances
What do others think of the issues brought up about Knowledge of the Ancestors, Spirit of the Tribal Champion, and Wrath of the Ancients? I'm fine losing Wrath of the Ancients, but would like to then replace it with something more flavorful.
Also, the class still lacks a reason to actually take ranks in Perform (Oratory). It needs either a stick (minimum ranks to gain abilities) or carrot (some abilities based on oratory skill bonus).
Uh, doesn't the fact that he has the bardic performance class feature mean he should be adding ranks in perform (oratory)? Makes it a useless feature of he's not adding ranks in the very skill that allows him to be good at it. Especially since his Cha is a secondary ability, the more ranks the better in this Perform (oratory).
Also, the class still lacks a reason to actually take ranks in Perform (Oratory). It needs either a stick (minimum ranks to gain abilities) or carrot (some abilities based on oratory skill bonus).Uh, doesn't the fact that he has the bardic performance class feature mean he should be adding ranks in perform (oratory)? Makes it a useless feature of he's not adding ranks in the very skill that allows him to be good at it. Especially since his Cha is a secondary ability, the more ranks the better in this Perform (oratory).
I feel you are not quite up-to-date on the Pathfinder bard. A Pathfinder bard's performance ability is in no way linked to skill ranks or skill bonus. It used to be in 3.5, but that is no longer true. Read up on the Pathfinder bard, it has some significant changes. This is why I say the bard now uses a carrot (versatile performance) instead of a stick (required skill ranks).
This is one of the subtle changes in Pathfinder that is easy to miss.
@Elghinn
Re: Spellbook. There's no comparison between the Arcanist (who can have multiple spellbooks and no limit on spells known) and the mystic. One is effectively a sorcerer with a spellbook, the other completely avoids spell scribing costs and at current has no mechanic to regain a lost set of knots; and that is also a forced arcane bond. Also, the fact this guy can have an arcane bond without dumping in two feats. There's a reason the Arcanist can't get one so easily- even their school understanding ability calls it out :P
An arcanist per the playtest also has a spellbook. From this spellbook, it picks what spells it will know for the day. In the current version of the quipu, it also has a spellbook. Thus far it is the same; it just has a funny-looking spellbook made of knots. All rules that apply to spellbooks should apply to the knotwork. The knotwork is just a lot more efficient and lighter to carry, but because it is a bonded item, it also needs to be carried - unlike your spellbook which you can leave at home. Probably the best way to express this as a rule is to say that "the quipu works exactly like a spellbook, except [...]". That allows you to make copies. Spellbooks in Pathfinder are much cheaper than spellbooks in 3.5, so it is actually feasible to keep a copy. If we go this route, this should probably overwrite the cost of a normal bonded object. Still a bit of a bookeeping hassle, but tbh how often do enemies really sunder items?
Perhaps we could add a note that the quipu is easy to sunder, but also easy to repai (unlike a spellbook) unless it is actually burnt or dissolved in acid. Cutting a quipu ought to be simple (2 hp, hardness 0), actually destroying one involves burning, dissolving, or quite a period of hacking it to pieces. You can take the quipu away during one fight, but actually destroying it in a fight is almost impossible.
Is the problem the bonded item's recall ability? This is actually quite similar to the arcanist's normal spellcasting, except that once per day you get one additional spell slot that doesn't need to be prepared at all. I don't see this as game-breaking.
Feck, the boards just ate a long post I wrote on the quipu ability.
Basically, the quipu is a spellbook, and could be written into the rules as a spellbook. I will try to reconstruct from memory.
Quipus: A quipy mystic recods his spell in a variant spellbook called a quipu. Except as noted here, a quipu functions exactly like an arcanist's spellbook.
The quipu, also called “talking knots”, is a special collar that consists of colored, spun, and plied cords. Each cord contains a sequence of knots, the number, type, and design of which conveys a specific spell. A quipu can have thousands of cords, each containing one spell.
A quipu weights 2 lbs. per 100 spells it holds (or fraction thereof), has a hardness of 0 and 2 hit points per pound of weight. Sundering the quipu severs it away from the wearer's neck, but does not destroy the component threads. A sundered quipu does not work as a spellbook or arcane focus (thus requiring a quipu mystic to make concentration checks to cast spells) until it is repaired. Repairs are simple, can be done in a few minutes, and has no cost. Actually destroying the quipu is similar to performing a coup-de-grace. The wearer must be helpless or cooperative, it is a full-round action that triggers an attack of opportinity, and needs to be done using fire, acid, or with an effect that specifically destroys items such as disintegrate. Chopping up the quipu is certainly possible, but takes one coup de grace action for each thread.
@Elghinn
Re: "Now, wat do you mean by "the fact this guy can have an arcane bond without dumping in two feats"? What feats are you talking about? "
Under normal circumstances, an Arcanist has to Eldritch Heritage to grab Arcane Bond- like I mentioned above, they can't get it normally. It's specifically called out that they cannot.
Now, if you are not going to trust -my- opinion on the arcane bond, how about the developers of the game? Because I believe they've come to the same or a similar conclusion.
Re: "Are you saying with your comments regarding arcane bond that he shouldn't have an arcane bond? That's it's OP? Just trying to clarify. I personally don't see the issue that he has one, as this is a wizard primary."
Yes. Very solidly so. Very, very much so. A thousand times yes.
Let me put it to you this way- in the hands of a wizard, it often says "I will solve one problem, and it doesn't matter what spells I have prepared."
In the hands of a Quipu Monk, it says "I will solve one problem, it doesn't matter what spells I have prepared, or that I have less high-level preps available. I am effectively bypassing one of the 'balancing points' of my spellcasting method."
Sidenote: In the hands of an Arcanist, it says: "I am your god. Fear me, because I just Potent Magic'd/otherexploited the perfect solution to this problem, thus giving me an extremely minimal chance of failure." Why do you think they can't grab it with school understanding? Takes'em two feats, one of which is almost useless.
Ultimately... I'm not sure if we should use the 'Arcanist Mechanic' so soon. But, if you must, please- err on the side of caution, drop the Arcane Bond, add some sort of ritual for adding spells to the quipu (with cost appropriate, of course), and above all remember that any summoning, blast, or buff abilities you give them negates a small part of the 'arcanist' limitations.
@Starfox
I've been playin' and building arcanists since the playtest started.
And this is very different as it is written. The quipu is not a spellbook as it stands, and the fact this guy has an Arcane Bond and a slew of less-limited class features is basically creating a situation where he is more powerful over the course of a day than an Arcanist.
On the other hand, the forced bond has issues of it's own, and not necessarily ones we can use for balancing matters...
Oh, as far as the bardic knowledge/lore master... I agree with 'fox that the the combination is a bit strong. Lore Master may, indeed, be a better solution. (Having both is right out! :P) Though why are we giving a high-int character even better knowledge checks...?
And I agree with his carrot analysis re: VP, as a sidenote :P Maybe toss the knowledge/lore stuff for just a couple plays of that.
# Quipu Mystic / Arcane Bond
I can't see how arcane bond would be more powerful for an arcanist/quipu than for a wizard. Sure, the quipu mystic has fewer spell slots, so it is a bigger percentile gain. But every odd level, his highest spell slot is lower than the wizard's. Both have a spell book, so it has the same versatility there. And the quipu mystic already has a great flexibility - adding some more is not a major change. The wizard has no flexibility at all once his spells are prepared, so the one flexible slot is a godsend.
The class that would really benefit from an arcane bond would be a cleric, in order to get the exact cure to break whatever condition the fighter picked up today.
Most people on the boards also see the familiar as being more powerful and with less risk than the arcane bond.
Overall, I feel the arcane bond fits the quipu well - it gives him an advantage and an Achilles heel, both of which feel very thematic.
@Quipu Mystic
I'm going to do some reworking on this. So let's focus on getting SAMAS's MCA going. We need some feedback on what we've talked about thus far in the thread.
As far as Quipu Mystic (not Quipu Monk, Raider..:P :D), I get what Raider's saying. Without schools to limit the Quipu Mystic, his arcane bond is far more powerful. I think I'm going to do the following.
1) Go with normal wizad casting
2) Quipu WILL function as a spellbook, with something like what Starfox has written above.
3) I'm going to come up with something to replace Arcane Bond, probably someting along the lines of a Special bond/school or somthing that focuses on the Spoken Word, since he can't use Silent SPell, I'm going to do something instead with his ability to resist Silence spells, etc? OR is that what is meant by Well-Verse, about the +4 applying to language-based effects? Anyone know? Would that already apply to Silence spells or similar effects?
I see this guy as powerful orator, and is difficult to shut up when he's operating in the capacity as a tribal mystic (thus casting his spells or using his Tribal Traditions ability - ie bardic performance.).
4) I guess I better read the Bardic Performance stuff. So, to clarify, is what you are saying Starfox, that if he has Bardic Knowledge, then he should have Versatile performance? What is the "Stick" I need to have so the carrat isnt hanging in mid air here.
In fact, I think I'm going to pull the Quipu Mystic for now, and reserve the right to jump back in again with it once I have things figured out. So, we'll work on SAMAS's MCA, then I'll post up our next Wiki MCA, which is one of Raider's, the Elder Sage I belive. That'll be sometime tonight.
@Quipu Mystic
[...]4) I guess I better read the Bardic Performance stuff. So, to clarify, is what you are saying Starfox, that if he has Bardic Knowledge, then he should have Versatile performance? What is the "Stick" I need to have so the carrat isnt hanging in mid air here.
Bardic knowledge is not part of the carrot/stick thing. The abilities involved are bardic performance and versatile performance.
In 3.5, it used to be so that to use inspire greatness, you needed to fulfill "bard of 9th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in a Perform". In Pathfinder, the same ability simply reads "A bard of 9th level". There is no skill rank requirement. So a bard no longer needs Perform skill to use bardic performance. This is what I mean when I say they removed a stick.
Instead they introduced versatile performance. At level 2 and every 4 levels thereafter, you get 2 free skills that can use the skill bonus of one of your Perform areas. In other words, the bard now gets a huge skill premium for having Perform skills. Not only can you use your Perform skill ranks for certain other skills, such as Sense Motive, you can also use your Charisma modifier. It is hard to realize how important this is just reading the text - in actual play this ability is stronger than it appears. It makes the bard a better skill monkey than the rogue at higher levels. This is the carrot - you get extras for buying perform ranks.
I tried to get the same effect above, by basing the effect of some tribal tradition uses on your skill bonus in Perform (Oratory). This is somewhat like the 3.5 bard's fascinate ability or the countersong in both editions - the efficiency of the power depends on your skill bonus.
I started looking at a new MCA - Sponsored Bard - Bard/Witch. Remember the pre 4E teaser book that said bards had picked up the patronage of a powerful magical being who grants their powers? This is that concept.
Ah, the Elder Sage...
My god I was so GREEN back then
(( Ahahahaha puns ))
Within the circles of the practitioners of nature magic, among the secreted and hidden covens of the witching power, they speak of an ancient wiseman of the woods; this then is the elder sage. Not completely one with nor wholly apart from the natural world, the elder sage spends her time among the woodlands–studying it, learning from it. This then is of whom the druids only whisper, at whom the witches stare and regard as both crazed and touched by the powers of divine patronage. A strange and awe-inspiring enigma, the magic of the fey and the roar of beasts do not give her fear, for within the elder sage is the very magic of the world itself.
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Druid.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: An elder sage adds three druid class skills to her list of class skills in addition to the normal witch skills. The elder sage gains a number of ranks at each level of the multiclass archetype equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor proficiency: Elder sages are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with an elder sage’s gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
Diminished Spellcasting: The elder sage adds the summon nature’s ally spells, and all spells from the Animal and Plant cleric domains to her spell list. The elder sage gains one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, she may cast spells of that level only if his Intelligence allows bonus spells of that level. She otherwise learns, prepares, and casts spells as a witch of equal level.
Nature Sense (Ex): This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name.
Wild Empathy (Ex): This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name.
Woodland Stride (Ex): This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name.
Trackless Step (Ex): This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name.
Hex: At 1st level and every three levels thereafter, the elder sage gains one hex of her choice. This is exactly like the witch ability of the same name. In addition, the elder sage adds the following hex to her list.
Entangling (Su): An elder sage can use her surroundings to bind her enemies. This acts as an entangle spell, using the elder sage's caster level. The elder sage can only have one entangling hex in effect at a time.
Herb Lore (Ex): At 5th level, an elder sage’s experience and knowledge of the woodlands grants her a +2 competence bonus on all Craft (alchemy), Knowledge (nature), and Profession (herbalist) checks. Additionally she gains the Eschew Material feat while in woodland terrain.
Resist Nature's Lure (Ex): This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name.
Wild Shape (Su): Starting at 6th level, the elder sage can use wild shape once per day, and an additional time per day every three levels thereafter, to a maximum of five times per day at 18th level. At 6th level, wild shape functions as beast shape I. At 9th level, wild shape functions as beast shape II. At 12th level, wild shape functions as plant shape I. At 15th level, wild shape functions as plant shape II. This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name.
Leyline Casting (Su): At 8th level, the elder sage has unearthed a deep and long-forgotten secret concerning the bond between her magic and the woodlands beneath her feet. By meditating and engaging in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform, the elder sage increases the effective caster level of her next spell by +1. This effect increases to +2 at 14th level. The elder sage can increase the caster level of a number of spells per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. If the elder sage leaves the woodland region in which she performed the ritual, the effect is immediately lost. The elder sage must perform the ritual again to reactivate the effect.
Wisdom of the Woods: At 10th level, whenever the elder sage prepares her spells in a woodland region she can simultaneously prepare her leyline casting and apply it to specific prepared spells at this time. In doing so the elder sage retains her leyline casting benefits even if she leaves the woodland region where her ritual was performed. The number of leyline castings the elder sage can initiate per day does not change. Once prepared, the elder sage cannot change her leyline casting until the next time she prepares her spells.
Improved Herb Lore (Ex): At 11th level, an elder sage’s competence bonus on Craft (alchemy), Knowledge (nature), and Profession (herbalist) checks made within woodland regions increases to +4, and Eschew Materials now allows her to ignore material components of 100 GP or less in the same terrain.
Major Hex: Starting at 13th level, the elder sage can select a major hex whenever she could select a hex. In addition, the elder sage adds the following new major hex to her list.
Treeskin (Su): An elder sage can draw upon the trees around her to toughen her own skin, or that of an ally. This acts as the barksin spell, using the elder sage's caster level. Once a creature has been affected by the treeskin hex, it cannot be affected again for 24 hours.
Greater Herb Lore (Ex): At 17th level, an elder sage’s competence bonus on Craft (alchemy), Knowledge (nature), and Profession (herbalist) checks made within woodland regions increases to +6, and Eschew Materials now allows her to ignore material components of 250 GP or less in the same terrain.
Quick Leyline Casting (Su): At 18th level, the magic of the land throbs in the elder sage’s veins, ready to answer her call. Once per day, the elder sage can prepare a leyline casting along with a full-round action.
Grand Hex: At 19th level, the elder sage can select a grand hex whenever she could select a hex. In addition, the elder sage adds the following grand hex to her list.
Natural Ally (Su): An elder sage with this hex can use summon nature’s ally VII once per day using the elder sage's caster level, but summoning them takes 1 full round of chanting, dancing, and communing with her familiar. The summoned creature(s) remain until dismissed, or for 24 hours, whichever comes first. The elder sage can only have one natural ally hex in effect at a time.
Sagacity of the Wild (Su): At 20th level, the elder sage no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Age bonuses still accrue, and the elder sage still dies of old age when her time is up.
Hex: The following hexes compliment the elder sage multiclass archetype: Beast of Ill-Omen**, Blight*, Cauldron*, Charm*, Disguise*, Entangling, Feral Speech**, Fortune*, Healing*, Misfortune*, Slumber*, Tongues*, Ward*, or Water Lung**. (*Advanced Player’s Guide, **Ultimate Magic)
Major Hex: The following major hexes compliment the elder sage multiclass archetype: Beast Eye**, Hidden Home**, Hoarfrost**, Major Healing*, Speak in Dreams**, Treeskin, Visions*, Weather Control*, or Witch’s Brew**.
Grand Hex: The following grand hexes compliment the elder sage multiclass archetype: Eternal Slumber*, Life Giver*, Natural Ally, Natural Disaster*, or Summon Spirit**.
Alternate Terrain: Although the elder sage is based on the woodland druid, he may select an alternate terrain at the time of character creation in which he gains the benefits of the herb lore, improved herb lore, greater herb lore, leyline casting, and wisdom of the woods abilities. Once chosen it cannot be changed.
Table: Elder Sage
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Cantrips, diminished casting, hex, nature’s sense, 2 0 — — — — — — — — witch’s familiar
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Wild empathy, woodland stride 3 1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +1 +3 +1 +3 Trackless step 3 1 0 — — — — — — —
4th +2 +4 +1 +4 Hex 3 2 1 — — — — — — —
5th +2 +4 +1 +4 Herb lore, resist nature’s lure 3 2 1 0 — — — — — —
6th +3 +5 +2 +5 Wild shape 1/day (beast shape I) 3 2 2 1 — — — — — —
7th +3 +5 +2 +5 Hex 3 3 2 1 0 — — — — —
8th +4 +6 +2 +6 Leyline casting +1 3 3 2 2 1 — — — — —
9th +4 +6 +3 +6 Wild shape 2/day (beast shape II) 3 3 3 2 1 0 — — — —
10th +5 +7 +3 +7 Hex, wisdom of the woods 3 3 3 2 2 1 — — — —
11th +5 +7 +3 +7 Improved herb lore 3 3 3 3 2 1 0 — — —
12th +6/+1 +8 +4 +8 Wild shape 3/day (plant shape I) 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 — — —
13th +6/+1 +8 +4 +8 Hex, major hex 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0 — —
14th +7/+2 +9 +4 +9 Leyline casting +2 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 — —
15th +7/+2 +9 +5 +9 Wild shape 4/day (plant shape II) 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0 —
16th +8/+3 +10 +5 +10 Hex 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 —
17th +8/+3 +10 +5 +10 Greater herb lore 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0
18th +9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Quick leyline casting, wild shape 5/day 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1
19th +9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Hex, grand hex 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
20th +10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Sagacity of the wild 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
@SAMAS
Hey! We need some input here. I've posed a few questions and suggestions about your MCA, as others have. The big thing we need to know is whether you are wanting your MCA to
1) Gain access to specific outsider's special attacks, and special qualities, but not actually assuming the form of the outsider;
OR
2) Transform into a specific outsider of equal HD to his level?
Then we can start working things out.
I had thought 1 would be great, but I'm thinking 2 will be simpler. That way, we'd simply grant bond powers at certain levels that are associated to each specific outsider/bond, sort of like a sorcerer's bloodline does. Then at 20th he can assume the true form of his outsider type.
#Elder Sage
Can you give us an ability swap breakdown for this El?
# ELDER SAGE
Like the concept - this is a deep woods witch who lives alone with her familiar. As a PC, about half her abilities become very situational because she has to travel. Might want to tune this down a bit to make it more PC-worthy.
Each ability on its own looks good. I've not dug deep enough to see if the overall effect is overpowered. The elder sage has a LOT of abilities, but many of them are conditional and NPC-ish so they don't count for much. As a locvation-specific NPC she might be a bit overpowered. But not by much - I really think the total is good enough as-is.
@SAMAS
The big thing we need to know is whether you are wanting your MCA to1) Gain access to specific outsider's special attacks, and special qualities, but not actually assuming the form of the outsider;
OR
2) Transform into a specific outsider of equal HD to his level?
3) Become a creature in a partial way like a synergist summoner does
I want to add a third option here, but perhaps that is just a subchoice of #2.
@Elder Sage
Can you give us an ability swap breakdown for this El?
I'm not sure? This was one of our early MCAs, so we didn't necessarily throw in the swaps, especially with diminished spellcasting. I'll have to look at it, but I'm think there may be too much here for the available swaps. Not sure. Raider will likely have a better gauge. Though, Starfox is right, ALOT of these abilities are situational.
From what I see...
Swapped Out
Spells from diminished spellcasting(10 spells from 0th-9th)
4 hexes
patron + patron spells
Swapped In
Nature sense
Woodland stride
Wild empathyy
Trackless step
Herb lore
Improved herb lore
Greater herb lore
Resist nature's lure
Wild shape to 5/day (beast and plant shpes only)
Leyline casting
Wisdom of the woods
Quick leyline casting
Sagacity of the Wild
# Elder Sage
Swapped out 22 abilities (counting each spell or spell slot as one)
Swapped in 17 abilities (counting each use of wild shape as one)
Seen that way, it seems a bit underpowered.
# General Notes
In my AT writeups, I follow the cue from d20srd.com and list all the abilities that have been swapped out/modified, as this list determines what other ATs yours is incompatible with. That reason is not valid for MCAs, but I still think listig the lost/modified abilities in their own section at the end is a good idea.
Like this: from Cantor
Summary of Changed Class Abilities
These abilities of the original class are lost or modified in this archetype:
Armor and Weapon proficiency
Class Skills
Bardic Performance
Spellcasting
Bardic Knowledge
Lore Master
Jack of All Trades