Other crafts don't allow you to cast wish. This situation does not apply equally to others. Flood the market with jewelry, art or whatever and they will devalue. Wish diamonds will never be in any form of abundance. Ever.
Since you can't craft dust or lesser diamonds into a single diamond, no, it's not within the bounds of the Fabricate spell.
I don't know of an Alchemy DC to agglomerate crap diamonds into big crap diamonds, either. Nor is there a spell to turn crap diamonds into pure diamonds.
And there IS a difference between 25k of dust and a 25k diamond. The diamond dust probably represents a crapload of dust, since it's, like, throwaway diamonds that aren't worth anything, and a 25k diamond is a 1 in a 100 diamond that is gemstone quality, and then the 1 in 10,000 among those that is worth 25k after being cut by a master jeweler.
You can also buy diamond dust in small doses in many places, then just 'add them up' to make a single 25k diamond, such as it were. 25k diamonds are going to be over the wealth limit of all but major cities, too, so they won't be easy to find.
==Aelryinth
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Your opinion. not fact. Stop stating it as such. Your view is RAI at best. It's wording is vague enough to be interpreted either way. Why do you insist that fiat being the answer isnt good enough for you. If you're gonna be the kind of gm that makes getting wish diamonds tough to get ahold of, at least own it instead of trying to pass it off as other people not knowing how to read or understand intent.
If fiat for fiats sake isn't enough for you I'll offer you another 'out' that will help your fiat make sense... Just rule that a 25000gp diamond is a diamond larger than 20 cubic feet in size, so not even a 20th level wizard could craft it using this spell. If the carat value of a 25000gp diamond is because its a huge crystalline unflawed stone milled to perfection and free of occlusions, and the value of premium grade diamond dust is 'crap' because tiny grains of wonderful diamond have practically no value, then the relative amount of diamond dust you need to make a 25000gp diamond is in fact like.... something in the neighborhood of 125 cubic feet of diamond dust. Well outside the capabilities of any wizard of any level. If you're gonna be that way.
One could more easily argue diamond dust would become rare if everyone was buying it and then using it up. And one can side-step this whole issue just by buying raw diamonds for 1/3 the final market value, then crafting them into 25k diamonds. That's certainly 100% legal and within the bounds of the Fabricate spell.
Eh, you used all of half a second to think of a side step. You really think high level arcanes are going to spend any more time thinking of that. As I said, ALL diamonds worth less than 25k AND dust will be unavailable for purchase in order to fab up wish diamonds.
And it won't be limited to honest buys. After becoming a high lvl caster there isn't much to keep them from organizing and taking. Good guys can and will justify taking all diamond supply just to keep them out of the hands of evil guys. There would be no end to how far evil casters would go. Each wish would make getting the next easier.
I comes down to this; if one player can do it, so can every other caster. Now, considering no one that can cast wish will ever say,"alrighty, that's enough wishes for me!" Diamonds will be sought and used to the point of making them absurdly rare, which would have happened long before the characters were even born, OR all high lvl casters would be walking around wished to stupid lvs, and no caster would not learn wish as soon as they could. And it doesn't take many wishes to go from fun to lame.
Alternatively, I suppose a DM could pretend that every other arcane in the universe is, somehow, a complete idiot, and give one of his PC's exclusive rights. The game is still going to fail if there are enough wishes to break it.
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Not long.
You do realize if a DM ruled that this is possible you wouldn't be able buy diamonds or diamond dust as arcane casters all over the world compete over all diamond resources.
This isn't about simple x=y. Diamonds smaller then 25k would be getting broke down into dust so a low lvl spell could convert them to wish diamonds. All casters high enough to cast wish would all have +5 to all attributes, etc.
Diamond mines would be controlled by powerful wizard/sorcerer guilds to stockpile and control them, and assassin/thief guilds would always be hunting down explorer/adventurers to kill/rob them.
None of that woudl occur.
The limit on how many 25K diamonds is home many piles of 25K you want to pay. Is there something in the rules which sez that at any decent sized city you can't buy as many 25 diamonds you can afford? There is nothing special about a 25K diamond- except that it costs 25K. Sure, you can't expect to walk into a small hamlet and buy one, but in any really big city there's about half a dozen major magic items for sale, and they cost 40K gps or more.
Any wizard who wants to spend 125Kgps can have +5 to any attribute- but of course that's more than a quarter of a 17th level PC's wealth. Buying +5 to all six would cost 650K or just about the full cash resources of a 19th level mage.
Doing this does not create wealth.
Aelryinth- even a "large town" will have 1-4 "major items' which means more 25K gems than that. Only a "small town" or less won't likely have any.
I comes down to this; if one player can do it, so can every other caster. Now, considering no one that can cast wish will ever say,"alrighty, that's enough wishes for me!" Diamonds will be sought and used to the point of making them absurdly rare, which would have happened long before the characters were even born, OR all high lvl casters would be walking around wished to stupid lvs, and no caster would not learn wish as soon as they could. And it doesn't take many wishes to go from fun to lame.Alternatively, I suppose a DM could pretend that every other arcane in the universe is, somehow, a complete idiot, and give one of his PC's exclusive rights. The game is still going to fail if there are enough wishes to break it..
The limit is not the # of 25000 gps diamonds it's the amount of 25000 gps piles of wealth you need to buy those diamonds. The diamonds are not the limiting factor, it's the cash to buy the diamonds. Wizards do not have unlimited wealth.
And, if diamonds are driven up in price then it just takes smaller and smaller diamonds to = 25K, until the point where a single speck of dust= 25K.
It's not the size or clarity or type of diamond, it's how much that diamond costs.
, OR all high lvl casters would be walking around wished to stupid lvs, and no caster would not learn wish as soon as they could. And it doesn't take many wishes to go from fun to lame.
Or you could justify that your world isnt full of high level wizards or high level magic items because a smart wizard got just barely powerful enough to say 'screw these hippies' and they're all off living on their own demiplanes instead of sticking around in your world crafting magic items and looting your petty world full of tarrasques and smelly peasants.
What? a justification for not having powerful magic items in your precious world? A justification for why there is no magic mart? A justification for why your world isn't rife with 20th level wizards vying for world domination? Perish the thought. If they're all as smart and uncomprimisingly greedy as you say they are they're probably all off scrying and 'planetary teleporting' around the galaxy looking for planets made of diamond instead of wasting time selling +6 attribute belts in some smelly coastal town on planet ho hum not enough diamonds for me... I mean. You know. If you want to keep up with this ad absurdem 'logical conclusion' stuff that you seem to like so much.
You could even go the forgotten realms route where the powerful wizarding community polices themselves (what the genies in the wishing adventure path in pathfinder do)... If someone is running around buying up all the diamonds and using wishes to ruin the world, Fizban shows up and bonks you on the head and tells you to be more responsible with your powers or he'll imprison you for eternity. Then Zifnabs dragon shows up and tells you to eat your vegetables.
Why you insist on taking the absurdly long route instead of simply being brave and saying 'I'd like to run a campaign with no wish spells' is beyond me. Stop trying to crash the system and blow up the universe when all you have to say is 'I dont wanna'... That way you can find out if those restrictions are the kind of restrictions that your players are willing to work with before they head out to ruin your world and your story.
Or you could let your players vote on how they'd like to interpret how the spell works so you know what kind of campaign they think they'd have fun being in. In case you're interested in that sort of thing.
Since you can't craft dust or lesser diamonds into a single diamond, no, it's not within the bounds of the Fabricate spell.
I don't know of an Alchemy DC to agglomerate crap diamonds into big crap diamonds, either. Nor is there a spell to turn crap diamonds into pure diamonds.
And there IS a difference between 25k of dust and a 25k diamond. The diamond dust probably represents a crapload of dust, since it's, like, throwaway diamonds that aren't worth anything, and a 25k diamond is a 1 in a 100 diamond that is gemstone quality, and then the 1 in 10,000 among those that is worth 25k after being cut by a master jeweler.
You can also buy diamond dust in small doses in many places, then just 'add them up' to make a single 25k diamond, such as it were. 25k diamonds are going to be over the wealth limit of all but major cities, too, so they won't be easy to find.
==Aelryinth
Can you please say where, in the spell, that only things that are craftable are what Fabricate allows?
The only point where it even mentions a craft check is items of high craftsmanship.
Incorrect, it mentions that you still need to roll on things of high craftsmanship.
Which means that on things with low craftsmanship, if you can take 10, you don't need to roll.
That's all it means. Exploding that out to mean you can turn a final product back into a superior version of its own raw material is classic logic stretching and power gaming.
In other words, can you point to anywhere in the spell that specifically says it can make things that aren't part of the Crafting paradigm?
No, it's not there. It's someone stretching what they don't see. They are saying "If it doesn't require Crafting, I can make it!"
What it really means is "If it doesn't have a Crafting DC, it's IMPOSSIBLE to Fabricate it."
Plus, someone already posted the previous four iterations of the Fabricate spell as reference. It very plainly is used for making raw materials into crafted goods, doing the work of a tradesman instantly.
It's not made for turning carbon into diamonds, sand into granite sculptures, or birch chips into darkwood shields. Diamond Dust is not raw material for a finished diamond...raw, uncut diamonds are. Diamond Dust is the end result when you crush poor quality diamonds, no more, no less. It is in no way, shape or form raw material for a jewel-level diamond. Diamond dust is a raw material...for sandpaper and jeweler's rouge. And Wall of Force spells.
Seriously, just sell the dust, buy the raw diamond, and use Fabricate to make the 25k diamond with Craft (Jeweler) from the ranks you got from a 4k +2 Int Headband. Quit trying to skip the intermediate step and distort the spell. It's already broken, and doesn't need the definition stretched out any further.
==Aelryinth
Incorrect, it mentions that you still need to roll on things of high craftsmanship.
Which means that on things with low craftsmanship, if you can take 10, you don't need to roll.
That's making one huge assumption.
No. A huge assumption is assuming that if you stumble across something that doesn't seem to require a Craft DC, suddenly this spell designed to insta-Craft can make it and you don't even have to roll for it.
I mean, seriously, the art of making diamonds takes machinery worth several hundred thousand dollars, a modern understanding of thermodynamics, crystal growth, and a computer-controlled environment needed to precisely control the process.
And it doesn't use diamond dust, it uses a seed diamond of high quality. Diamond dust is from crap diamonds. Use it, you'll get crap artificial diamonds.
And someone is trying to say this isn't a Crafting thing, that it doesn't require a crafting check since it's a 'geologic' process.
So, some trace chromium, some silica (in other words, some sand from a mountain range), and you can make rubies and sapphires out of river dirt. It's just a geological process, you don't have to roll for it.
Riiiiiight. there's absolutely nothing in the spell that in any way infers it can duplicate a geological process, yet somehow it has miraculously gained that ability, and without even the token of a skill check DC. It's easier to create diamonds from diamond dust then it is to make a steel dagger, because 'you don't need to do a check.'
Wrap your brain around that one. People were making daggers two thousand years ago, and yet it's easier to make dust into diamonds. Mmm-hmmm.
==Aelryinth
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So, some trace chromium, some silica (in other words, some sand from a mountain range), and you can make rubies and sapphires out of river dirt. It's just a geological process, you don't have to roll for it.
No one is arguing that one can make dirt into gems. The argument is to change a mineral in one form in to a finished product of the same material.
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Seriously, just sell the dust, buy the raw diamond, and use Fabricate to make the 25k diamond with Craft (Jeweler) from the ranks you got from a 4k +2 Int Headband. Quit trying to skip the intermediate step and distort the spell. It's already broken, and doesn't need the definition stretched out any further.
Seriously, just take the dust, buy the 25k diamond.
See, just two steps. You don't need to sell the dust, buy a raw diamond, or use Fabricate. Just walk into any town with more than 2000 pop, plunk down 25K of cash in any normal form and walk out with the diamond.
I understand you guys are having great fun debating over whether this spell will work. But I got a better "spell"- it's call "Buying Stuff". It's a -1 level spell, and requires you not to fail a DC 15 Diplomacy roll by more than 10 (i.e. it requires a DC 5 check, which some characters will have some trouble making, sure). The material component is cash= the value of what you want to buy. See chart as to how many times you can "cast" this in any given town, city, etc. VSM. It's on the spell list for every class, even those than can't normally cast spells.
Why you insist on taking the absurdly long route instead of simply being brave and saying 'I'd like to run a campaign with no wish spells' is beyond me. Stop trying to crash the system and blow up the universe when all you have to say is 'I dont wanna'... That way you can find out if those restrictions are the...
No one here is banning wish spells, though I apologize that my completely outlandish "logical conclusions" vex you so.
There's still original question. Can it be done? Doesn't look like it. Should it be done? Not really. How can one get access to wishes? All normal methods still apply.
Happy wishing.
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There's still original question. Can it be done?Yes!
Should it be done?
Yes! Double yes with a side of Yes Soap! You're not fully clean untill you're YESFULLY clean!
How can one get access to wishes?
By any means your gm isn't too stodgy to allow! I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I mean By any means your gm allows!
In the words of Sam and Criminy Kraffft, only take what you can handle and always know your dealer.
Happy wishing!
As is apparent from this thread is that the answer is either yes or no, depending on your GM. Personally, this is the sort of thing I allow. Diamond in form A to Diamond in form B. Seems simple enough. And I like simple.
If the only reason you don't want it to be allowed is that you don't want a Wizard to cast Wish, then don't allow them to learn Wish. If you are worried about it breaking the economy, ask your players to not break it.
You are there to have fun. You can theory-craft ways that this breaks an economy all day. The bottom line is that if your players are having more fun breaking an economy than playing your adventure, you have bigger problems.
For those that give a hard line No, I am one of many GMs that disagree with you. Please stop speaking in absolutes. The wording of the spell gives leeway for interpretation.
Seriously, just take the dust, buy the 25k diamond.
See, just two steps. You don't need to sell the dust, buy a raw diamond, or use Fabricate. Just walk into any town with more than 2000 pop, plunk down 25K of cash in any normal form and walk out with the diamond.
This is not how Fabricate works. You only buy the cost of the raw materials. That's 8333.33gp. Then you craft a 25k diamond from that. The line on the material component cost is quite explicit here.
Why do people keep forgetting this?
The raw materials are (if the spell works like that) is 25K:(the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Where do you think you get extra worth out of it? Now, see, if you could use this to covert 8K of stuff into 25K, then yes, it'd be a game-breaker to a point, and thus is clearly not RAI.
But it does not appear if the OP or others want to create Wealth with this spell, they simply want to turn 25K of diamond dust into a 25K diamond. Which can be done in any decent sized burg without any magic at all.
One issue with the whole "you can craft stuff without involving the craft skill so this can get you loads of money" is that the craft skill is where it's stated that the material cost is 1/3 of the market price.
So either you use the Craft rules, and then you can't fabricate diamonds of diamond dust.
Or you don't use the Craft rules, and then there's no crafting discount.
Again, Fabricate explicitly says its material cost is the same as the cost of craft materials. That's 1/3 the price. It's very explicit.
The cost of materials to craft an item _with the craft skill_ is 1/3 the market price.
If one claims you can use fabricate to craft things that does not at all relate to the craft skill (say, making timber out of sawdust or diamonds out of diamond dust or whatever), that the crafting of such things do not relate to the craft skill, then for that application we can't go to the craft skill to look for adjudication - and that's where the "1/3 price" is stated.
I'm not saying that if you fabricate a sword it doesn't cost 1/3 just because you use fabricate, I'm saying that if one claims that fabricate can be used outside of the context of Crafting (as the skill) then it also needs to be ruled without using that skill. And then it's not explicitly 1/3 of the material cost.
Also, Aelrinth, would you have problems with a player taking a raw diamond worth 8333gp and turning it into a 25k diamond?
The answer is yes and no.
No, because that's how you actually MAKE a 25k diamond.
Yes, because such an incredible jewel, that would take a master craftsman months to successfully craft with probably a DC of 25 or so can be accomplished in an instant with Fabricate.
Keeps the game going, but really exploits the spell. I personally nerf Fabricate to sub for one day's Crafting check...so it's an accelerator, but not nearly as abusable.
==Aelryinth
UE, pg. 388.
Price for uncut diamonds are half, not third. DC 25 will allow you to craft diamonds up to 6,500gp.
What skill would let u craft dust into diamonds WITHOUT the spell? Jewelcrafting is about cutting the jewels, so that would lead to alchemy but crafting it.....ehhh
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None. With or without fabricate magic.
To do either you would need an uncut diamond of at least 12,500gp value (uncut value). Then a minumum DC of 30, possibly higher.
Also note that fabricate states the quality of items made are commensurate to the quality of materials used. Rusty iron, therefore, fabricates into iron of similar quality. Therefore, it seems apparent one couldn't even fabricate usable uncut diamonds from the dust.
To offer opinions and occasionally help form a consensus?
You do good work, Azothath.
Still way overthinking this but since thats all this thread is about anymore... Caryy on.
The text changed, dropping "(jewelry, swords, glass, crystal, and the like)". Diamonds are crystals, and this dropped text implies you can craft crystal items. The DC needed, however is not specified.
Also note that fabricate cannot make a composite item. The example above of sawdust+glue=fiberboard is something the spell cannot do.
/cevah
Except "material" can mean more than one substance...
"the substance or substances of which a thing is made or composed: Stone is a durable material. "
I will say old editions can't be used to judge what a spell does, but making swords has been a traditional part of the spell even in 3rd (Devs even talked about it). Swords are composed of more than just metal.
Unless you read the spell:
"You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material."You still make swords, just without the bone/wood/ivory handle, which is an inexpensive component for a working sword. The main cost of a sword is forming the blade.
/cevah
Most advanced items, such as suits of armor, are multi-component. Underpadding, rivets, clasps, leather ties are all in addition to just the shaped pieces of metal.
As long as all the components are there, it should be allowed to progress. Now, whether you consider the putting a hilt on a blade to be part of a smithing check is something else. Historically, getting a proper hilt was an artform all its own (especially for those katanas, layering those bands of silk perfectly was incredibly hard) and it was usually farmed out to a specialist in the matter. Ditto the sheathes.
==Aelryinth