The Scarecrow Golem says "You may not play spells with the attack trait".
Two questions about this and the interaction with Toxic Cloud (which is a spell with the attack trait)...
Q1) If you have played Toxic Cloud earlier in your turn, does its lingering effect affect the Scarecrow Golem? The Golem doesn't say that it's immune to poison nor that it's immune to 'attack spells'.
Q2) If Harsk encounters the Scarecrow Golem, can Seoni cast Toxic Cloud to help him? The wording is "YOU may not play spells with the attack trait", not "spells with the attack trait cannot be played".
Thematically we decided that the Golem should probably be immune to spells so decided not to use the Toxic cloud last night but would be great to get some official feedback. If the limitation is meant to be wider then perhaps a FAQ entry could change it to something like:
"Spells with the attack trait cannot be played during this encounter and do not affect the Scarecrow Golem"
I tried almost exactly the same thing as (2) on Saturday night, just against a different golem with the attack trait limitation. Chad was in the room and was emphatic that I couldn't get away with this, even to recharge the card (my intent). (If the attack had failed, one of Ezren's aid cards had a chance of exploding so he was helping out from a remote location and worried about dying at the end of his next turn.)
Chief Technical Officer
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Q1) If you have played Toxic Cloud earlier in your turn, does its lingering effect affect the Scarecrow Golem? The Golem doesn't say that it's immune to poison nor that it's immune to 'attack spells'.
Yes, you still add 1d6 with the Poison trait to your combat check against the Golem. You're not playing Toxic Cloud *now*, and nothing goes back in time to prevent you from playing it, and, as you say, nothing says the Golem is immune to its effect. It's in play, and it has its effect.
Q2) If Harsk encounters the Scarecrow Golem, can Seoni cast Toxic Cloud to help him? The wording is "YOU may not play spells with the attack trait", not "spells with the attack trait cannot be played".
Actually, I think the problem here is that Toxic Cloud should maybe not have the Attack trait. Will discuss with Mike.
Thanks for clarifying, Vic. Look forward to hearing back about the Attack trait!
Actually, I think the problem here is that Toxic Cloud should maybe not have the Attack trait. Will discuss with Mike.
Any confirmation on this one way or the other? I didn't see anything in the FAQ. I don't think it having the Attack trait is necessarily wrong, I just want to know what can and can't be done.
Also, if you could clarify: If a character encounters a barrier like Goblin Raid and someone casts Toxic Cloud, the Toxic Cloud is played when the Goblin Raid barrier was encountered, which means the caster can still play another spell for their combat check during their encounter with the summoned monster with out violating the "Each player may play no more than 1 card of each type during each step" rule because the barrier encounter and the summoned monster encounter are different steps. Correct? I'm feeling pretty sure on this, but since I just advised someone else that this was ok, I know would feel better having either official confirmation or at least a plurality of support from forum users.
I know Paizo employees are very busy and also shouldn't be slaves to us enjoying our Christmas day by having to answer questions on your Christmas day, but when you get back and have a moment, if you could let us know it would be most appreciated. Thanks.
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I let this one slip beyond my notice. Sorry.
Toxic Cloud is one of a very few cards with the Attack trait that are not played in response to being required to make a combat check. So they break the rules a bit.
The card as worded should be played against the Golem thusly:
- The character that encountered the Golem cannot play spells with the Attack trait.
- Anyone else can.
- However, most spells with the Attack trait say "For your combat check," so other people can't play them either.
- Except the displayed "Cloud" spells, which do affect the Golem.
- So a character other than the one who encountered the Golem can cast Toxic Cloud.
The card as worded should be played against the Goblin Raid thusly:
- A character encounters the barrier.
- Any character plays the spell in response to encountering it.
- A character encounters a Goblin.
- That character can play a spell, and gets +1d6 on the combat check.
- Another character encounters a Goblin.
- That character can play a spell, and gets +1d6 on the combat check.
- It doesn't matter whether any of them cast the Toxic Cloud, since the spell can be cast when a character encounters a bane.
Philosophically:
Is it possible we'd do some of these cards differently in the future? Sure. But there's no reason to errata a completely functional card just because another card exploits a loophole in it. Enjoy your Toxic Cloud.
Mike
P.S. Vic's question about whether the Toxic Cloud should have the attack trait is a straw man, since the spell affects the Scarecrow Golem either way.
P.P.S. The Scarecrow Golem is also a straw man.
Thanks. That is how I read it. I appreciate the response and hope you had a merry Christmas.
I believe that the golem villain in the last scenario of deck 5 was worded differently, preventing all spells with the attack trait from being used without mentioning the check. So non-straw men may be able to avoid cloud spells.
P.S. Vic's question about whether the Toxic Cloud should have the attack trait is a straw man, since the spell affects the Scarecrow Golem either way.
P.P.S. The Scarecrow Golem is also a straw man.
*casts Raise Dead on the thread*
Persons of straw persuasion aside, I know a solo Seoni on her way to a Karzoug Statue, who will care very much about the answer to Vic's ancient question, so... Attack, or no Attack for cloud spells?
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Chief Technical Officer
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A while back, we revised most of the golems to change "You may not play spells with the Attack trait" to "The Scarecrow Golem is immune to the Attack and Mental traits".
We did the same for Skull Ripper, Clay Golem, Iron Golem, Coral Golem, Cannon Golem, Carrion Golem, Warmonger Wasp, Stone Golem, Urannag, and Devastator. The Karzoug Golem has always said that.
So during your encounter with such a golem, players may not play cards with those traits, use powers that would add those traits to the check, or roll dice with those traits.
The only cards that have had the Attack trait added via FAQ are Confusion and Paralyze; no cards have had it removed.
Speaking of which, Vic, since the change to cards that say "add dice with X trait" to "add dice and X trait", does "roll dice with those traits" matter anymore? Or is it kept for backwards compatibility reasons?
I'm mostly asking because I get confused when we talk about rolling dice with traits given that I don't think it's defined anywhere in the rulebook, not even in an example. We see lots of things about cards having traits and checks having traits, but not dice. And nowadays we know something Toxic Cloud can't add dice to a check from a bane immune to the Poison trait because you can't play the power that adds the trait to it.