How does trip work against someone in the middle of a jump?


Rules Questions


The rules say you can't trip a flying creature. As far as I can tell, jumping doesn't count as flying. So, if you're tripped while in the middle of a long jump, do you fall prone in the square the trip attack happened in? At your destination? How does this work?


I don't think there is any RAW for this.

You cannot trip a flying creature because it is not using its legs for support. Jumping creatures are not using their legs in mid jump, but they are using them to land (properly).

Jumps are executed instantly during the jumping creature's turn, so it's hard to trip them unless you use a readied action or an AoO. These happen before the actual jump, so if you threaten them in the square from which they begin their jump, they will be tripped before they ever actually jump, so they are prone in that square.

If they provoke an AoO by jumping through a threatened area (but not their starting square), then no matter where they are tripped, they end up prone in their destination square. This works just like normal movement - if you move from A to B and somewhere along the way you provoke an AoO, if you survive it, you continue moving unless the AoO stops your movement (such as tripping someone who is walking, or stunning them, etc.). But since the momentum of a trip all happens instantly, it doesn't matter where they are tripped, their momentum still carries them to their destination - the trip just decides whether they reach the destination prone or not.


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I'd say you just knock their legs out of position for when they land.


The jumper is "committed" to "moving" in the following round to complete the jump, but they aren't "entitled" to it, so to speak. I think they'd fall prone in their square - so you knock them out of their jump.

So basically you clothesline them.

Sczarni

It's hard to tell without example. It would depend if creature is provoking AoO from his spot when he tries to jump or during the jump itself. The second is generally very unlikely to happen, but if it does, I would grant regular AoO with no trip attempt. If the creature provoking AoO is hit during jump, it would gain penalty on his jump check and possibly land prone.


If you can "clothesline" a jumper, you should be able to do the same to a flyer, but the Trip rules say you cannot - which then infers you cannot do it to a jumper, either.

Sure, that's just inference, but since there is no RAW on this, I choose the inference that creates the fewest future arguments: if I allow "clotheslining" the jumper with just a Trip maneuver, I just know my players will want to "clothesline" a flying dragon some day, with nothing more than a trip maneuver.

I prefer to nip that stuff in the bud.


Malag wrote:
The second is generally very unlikely to happen, but if it does, I would grant regular AoO with no trip attempt.

Why to trip attempt?

It's perfectly fine to use Trip on an AoO. The RAW allows it. Are you just denying it against jumpers on the same principle that it's denied against flyers? If so, you certainly could rule it that way, but there does seem to be a logical difference between a flyer who doesn't need his legs to fly and a jumper who definitely needs his legs to land at the end of his jump.


DM_Blake wrote:

I don't think there is any RAW for this.

You cannot trip a flying creature because it is not using its legs for support. Jumping creatures are not using their legs in mid jump, but they are using them to land (properly).

Jumps are executed instantly during the jumping creature's turn, so it's hard to trip them unless you use a readied action or an AoO. These happen before the actual jump, so if you threaten them in the square from which they begin their jump, they will be tripped before they ever actually jump, so they are prone in that square.

If they provoke an AoO by jumping through a threatened area (but not their starting square), then no matter where they are tripped, they end up prone in their destination square. This works just like normal movement - if you move from A to B and somewhere along the way you provoke an AoO, if you survive it, you continue moving unless the AoO stops your movement (such as tripping someone who is walking, or stunning them, etc.). But since the momentum of a trip all happens instantly, it doesn't matter where they are tripped, their momentum still carries them to their destination - the trip just decides whether they reach the destination prone or not.

An AoO is the scenario I was thinking of, but otherwise I'm not so sure what you've said is the case. Jumping is really just something tacked onto a normal move action, so it SHOULD stop you once the successful trip goes off. It makes sense, really, that a strike designed to disrupt your movement and deposit you on the ground can do so whether you're 5 inches or 5 feet off the earth. After all, the extremely beefy fighter in full plate who's charging has a lot of momentum, but that wouldn't stop a successfil trip attack on an AoO from depositing him flat on his backside.


I would drop them in the square where the attack is made. It simply only works for jump and not fly because there is no propulsion or ability to change direction with a jump. Flight has both.


Just grapple that sucker.

The real question is, without the Improved feat, would the AoO provoke from the jumper?

Now we are in crouching tiger hidden dragon territory.


Davick wrote:

Just grapple that sucker.

The real question is, without the Improved feat, would the AoO provoke from the jumper?

Now we are in crouching tiger hidden dragon territory.

You can't on an Attack of Opportunity. It's Disarm, Sunder, or Trip maneuvers only.

Ideally, this scenario would play out with an attack that either has reach or said feat to avoid AoO craziness.


DM_Blake wrote:
If you can "clothesline" a jumper, you should be able to do the same to a flyer, but the Trip rules say you cannot - which then infers you cannot do it to a jumper, either.

Why must the two be intertwined? A jumper isn't flying.

A flying creature is resisting gravity in some manner, so you can't just knock the legs out from under them, but a jumping creature is still married to the harsh mistress.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Davick wrote:

Just grapple that sucker.

The real question is, without the Improved feat, would the AoO provoke from the jumper?

Now we are in crouching tiger hidden dragon territory.

You can't on an Attack of Opportunity. It's Disarm, Sunder, or Trip maneuvers only.

Ideally, this scenario would play out with an attack that either has reach or said feat to avoid AoO craziness.

No, but if a jumper is "suspended" inbetween turns of a long jump, you could grapple them for a takedown.


I don't think this is possible. Isn't a jump limited to your max movement in a round? Wouldn't that make it impossible to take more than one round to resolve?

Sczarni

Well, obviously there isn't any RAW on this one.

You can't trip a flying opponent, because they rely on their wings. Those wings balance them and keep them from relying on legwork on land. Sure you could technically trip them, or rather tilt them with your trip attempt, while they're flying, but they would instinctually just balance out the opposing force between just staying afloat and actually correcting their positioning with some wing-work.

For a foe that is Jumping through the air past you, and let's say you have a readied action or get the chance of using an AoO, I would personally go in the middle of Not being able to trip and being able to trip. Make your trip attempt, did it succeed? Okay then, now that person gets a reflex save whenever they land to not end up prone. This way instead of saying No; they both get a chance and it makes more sense of the situation. Bipedal opponents flying through the air generally aren't great at balancing themselves, but for the sake of an acrobatically adept foe we can assume they are. Perhaps after you tagged their feet or head with a trip attempt, they started spinning through the air. Perhaps they increased the spin or decreased it enough to land correctly or "tuck and roll" after the jump. Then again, perhaps they were not acrobatically adept enough to do that, and they end up face-planting the floor and skidding a few feet.


I would say that you would trip the jumper (provided it's successful) and that individual would fall prone in the square that he was in when you executed the attack.


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

Well, obviously there isn't any RAW on this one.

You can't trip a flying opponent, because they rely on their wings. Those wings balance them and keep them from relying on legwork on land. Sure you could technically trip them, or rather tilt them with your trip attempt, while they're flying, but they would instinctually just balance out the opposing force between just staying afloat and actually correcting their positioning with some wing-work.

For a foe that is Jumping through the air past you, and let's say you have a readied action or get the chance of using an AoO, I would personally go in the middle of Not being able to trip and being able to trip. Make your trip attempt, did it succeed? Okay then, now that person gets a reflex save whenever they land to not end up prone. This way instead of saying No; they both get a chance and it makes more sense of the situation. Bipedal opponents flying through the air generally aren't great at balancing themselves, but for the sake of an acrobatically adept foe we can assume they are. Perhaps after you tagged their feet or head with a trip attempt, they started spinning through the air. Perhaps they increased the spin or decreased it enough to land correctly or "tuck and roll" after the jump. Then again, perhaps they were not acrobatically adept enough to do that, and they end up face-planting the floor and skidding a few feet.

The problem with that middle-of-the-road approach is that it sets up an entirely new set of house rules for how to handle this. What's the Reflex save based on? What sort of circumstantial bonuses apply to the saving throw or DC? How do you handle creatures with an odd number of legs, or with no legs at all? It's more time and energy figuring out and arbitrating entirely new rules than needs to be expended on the issue.


I'm a real-life quadrupel blackbelt who knows how to fight.

In real life, jumping maneuvers are very risky precisely because an opponent can strike you in mid-air and bring you to the ground easily.

Attacks of Opportunity and trips reflect this blisteringly realistic combat quite admirably. If you trip a non-flying opponent in mid-air, they end up prone in the square you tripped them in. They still have the remainder of their movement, I think, so if they have a move action left they can stand from prone.

On the plus side, you can charge with a leaping attack as long as you started from a point higher than your target, and you get a +1 from higher ground (before incurring an AoO from leaving a threatened space above and adjacent to the target— which they might use to trip you).

That depends on how literally your GM interprets the "ground" part of higher ground, but I always award it for leaping attacks, given the drawbacks mentioned above. Let's not discourage dynamic combats by making everything dynamic inferior, right?

Don't disagree with my ruling or I will beat you up with my karate.


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

I'm a real-life quadrupel blackbelt who knows how to fight.

In real life, jumping maneuvers are very risky precisely because an opponent can strike you in mid-air and bring you to the ground easily.

Attacks of Opportunity and trips reflect this blisteringly realistic combat quite admirably. If you trip a non-flying opponent in mid-air, they end up prone in the square you tripped them in. They still have the remainder of their movement, I think, so if they have a move action left they can stand from prone.

On the plus side, you can charge with a leaping attack as long as you started from a point higher than your target, and yo get a +1 from higher ground.

Don't disagree with my ruling or I will beat you up with my karate.

Karate, pheh! Everyone knows Wing Chun is where it's at.


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

I'm a real-life quadrupel blackbelt who knows how to fight.

In real life, jumping maneuvers are very risky precisely because an opponent can strike you in mid-air and bring you to the ground easily.

Attacks of Opportunity and trips reflect this blisteringly realistic combat quite admirably. If you trip a non-flying opponent in mid-air, they end up prone in the square you tripped them in.

Fine, but how often in Karate are you trying to trip someone who is jumping, say, 20 feet horizontally?

Never.

So yeah, in sparring, people fall pretty much where you trip them.

Now take it to the Track and Field and find someone doing a running long jump. Wait until after they're airborn and smack them in the shins. Ouch!

Does anyone think that guy falls immediately where you smacked him?

Of course not - his momentum carries him pretty much to where he was going to land anyway, but with his feet taken out from under him, it's very unlikely that he'll land well.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Karate, pheh! Everyone knows Wing Chun is where it's at.

I know that too, and 257 other forms of martial art.


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Karate, pheh! Everyone knows Wing Chun is where it's at.
I know that too, and 257 other forms of martial art.

Only another hundred and so and you're Batman.


DM_Blake wrote:

Fine, but how often in Karate are you trying to trip someone who is jumping, say, 20 feet horizontally?

Never.

So yeah, in sparring, people fall pretty much where you trip them.

Now take it to the Track and Field and find someone doing a running long jump. Wait until after they're airborn and smack them in the shins. Ouch!

Does anyone think that guy falls immediately where you smacked him?

Of course not - his momentum carries him pretty much to where he was going to land anyway, but with his feet taken out from under him, it's very unlikely that he'll land well.

You're not wrong. If I was GMing and this came up with a 20 foot horizontal leap (already a somewhat silly proposition) then I would totally ad hoc have the dude land prone wherever I thought was coolest.

However, it's reasonable to assume that if you're tripping someone jumping past you, that you clothes-line or otherwise impede their movement. Trip attacks do not necessarily mean attacking the feet. You can knock someone prone by pulling their hair, or any number of sweet maneuvers that I am so highly trained in.

You're not going to get a ruling for this one, and I don't think a comprehensive rule on the issue can exist. The GM's ruling and the rule of cool should be all we need here.

But.

You did just disagree with me, so I am contractually obligated to open my can of martial arts on you.

Be ready. You won't see me coming.


DM_Blake wrote:
Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

I'm a real-life quadrupel blackbelt who knows how to fight.

In real life, jumping maneuvers are very risky precisely because an opponent can strike you in mid-air and bring you to the ground easily.

Attacks of Opportunity and trips reflect this blisteringly realistic combat quite admirably. If you trip a non-flying opponent in mid-air, they end up prone in the square you tripped them in.

Fine, but how often in Karate are you trying to trip someone who is jumping, say, 20 feet horizontally?

Never.

So yeah, in sparring, people fall pretty much where you trip them.

Now take it to the Track and Field and find someone doing a running long jump. Wait until after they're airborn and smack them in the shins. Ouch!

Does anyone think that guy falls immediately where you smacked him?

Of course not - his momentum carries him pretty much to where he was going to land anyway, but with his feet taken out from under him, it's very unlikely that he'll land well.

Who says you have to hit him in the shins? There's more than one way to skin a cat...or, in this case, trip a monk. Grab their leg and do a quick downward pull so their earth-bound acceleration is dramatically increased in the next fraction of a second. Then, it's "Oh, hello ground!" Because physics is your friend.


DM_Blake wrote:


Does anyone think that guy falls immediately where you smacked him?

Of course not - his momentum carries him pretty much to where he was going to land anyway, but with his feet taken out from under him, it's very unlikely that he'll land well.

There is a certain amount of lost momentum if you make contact with something while jumping.


I know physics too.

I learned it when I trained with the masters in Japan. It's a big part of the martial arts.

Shadow Lodge

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as a gm i would rule they move 5 feet past you and take a d6 damage from landing on their face and skidding across the floor after you trip them LOL!!


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Stupid Enemy AoO Golfing:

When you get an AoO on an creature leaping through your threatened space, you may trip that enemy. For every five points by which you exceed their CMD, you may add or subtract five feet from their ultimate destination square.

Try to plant him squarely in the ceremonial pit of lava!


Komoda wrote:
I don't think this is possible. Isn't a jump limited to your max movement in a round? Wouldn't that make it impossible to take more than one round to resolve?

No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round, but there are circumstances where you can end your movement in the middle of a jump.

For example, Dwarfman is under fire from archers across a 20 foot chasm, and it is 30 feet away (assuming he can move 40 feet with a Withdraw action). He gets his running start, but his movement is over in the middle of the jump. He doesn't get a free 10 feet, but preventing him from jumping altogether is silly. He simply "hangs" there until his next turn. This is the edge of credibility, but it's an artifact of a turn-based system. Don't worry about it too hard and it works out fine.

If someone approaches him to try to Trip/Grapple, don't think of it as someone casually walking up to him suspended midair and batting him out of the air, think of it as them seeing him make his running start to jump, and moving to intercept.


I would not allow for fly swatter like action some are proposing.

At most I would allow a successful AoO to cause the person to land prone, if they provoked after already beginning their jump. If they provoke before jumping its just a normal trip attempt.


Alright so let's say an enemy leaps past you. You decide to disarm him. You don't have improved disarm. This provokes. The leaper attempts to trip you. He also does not have improved trip. This provokes. You decide to use greater trip. You succeed. If your opponent is not prone until he hits the ground, would that be when he provokes the attack from greater trip? If he is not yet prone is he entitled to finish his trip attempt? If he failed, would he suffer prone penalties for your disarm attempt?

Also everyone has combat reflexes.

Would their jump become a fall accompanied by falling damage?


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Davick wrote:

Alright so let's say an enemy leaps past you. You decide to disarm him. You don't have improved disarm. This provokes. The leaper attempts to trip you. He also does not have improved trip. This provokes. You decide to use greater trip. You succeed. If your opponent is not prone until he hits the ground, would that be when he provokes the attack from greater trip? If he is not yet prone is he entitled to finish his trip attempt? If he failed, would he suffer prone penalties for your disarm attempt?

Also everyone has combat reflexes.

This scenario causes a rift in the fabric of the material plane. All within 30 feet take 10d6 damage and are immediately transported to the astral plane. The rift persists for 1d3 rounds.


Claxon wrote:

I would not allow for fly swatter like action some are proposing.

At most I would allow a successful AoO to cause the person to land prone, if they provoked after already beginning their jump. If they provoke before jumping its just a normal trip attempt.

So as long as I move 10 feet before I go by a target and make a check, I can jump past them even if they trip me?

That'd give me a fun idea for a pack of kobolds, actually. Leaping lizards, everywhere!


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Who says you have to hit him in the shins? There's more than one way to skin a cat...or, in this case, trip a monk. Grab their leg and do a quick downward pull so their earth-bound acceleration is dramatically increased in the next fraction of a second. Then, it's "Oh, hello ground!" Because physics is your friend.

Fair enough, but "grab their leg" falls into (no pun intended) a Grapple maneuver, not a trip. In fact, any kind of "grabbing" is Grapple.

Both Grapple and Trip can take someone to the ground, but Trip is designed to unbalance without grappling with them.

I daresay that any non-grabbing contact with the leg of an Olympic long-jumper as he jumps past you won't stop his progress but rather, it will just spoil his landing. Likewise with "clotheslining" him.

Sure, any such contact will alter his trajectory and he may not face-plant at exactly the same spot he had intended to feet-plant, but probably fairly close (which is why I initially said "pretty-much").


Davick wrote:

Alright so let's say an enemy leaps past you. You decide to disarm him. You don't have improved disarm. This provokes. The leaper attempts to trip you. He also does not have improved trip. This provokes. You decide to use greater trip. You succeed. If your opponent is not prone until he hits the ground, would that be when he provokes the attack from greater trip? If he is not yet prone is he entitled to finish his trip attempt? If he failed, would he suffer prone penalties for your disarm attempt?

Also everyone has combat reflexes.

Would their jump become a fall accompanied by falling damage?

I agree with Mythic Evil Lincoln, except rocks fall and everybody dies.

But seriously, thats a very contrived example. It's incredibly unlikely a jumping enemy is going to decide its a wonderful idea to provoke an AoO by using a combat maneuver he isn't proficient in.

And further, you're only convinving me that tripping shouldn't be allowed on a creature mid-jump at all.


DM_Blake wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Who says you have to hit him in the shins? There's more than one way to skin a cat...or, in this case, trip a monk. Grab their leg and do a quick downward pull so their earth-bound acceleration is dramatically increased in the next fraction of a second. Then, it's "Oh, hello ground!" Because physics is your friend.

Fair enough, but "grab their leg" falls into (no pun intended) a Grapple maneuver, not a trip. In fact, any kind of "grabbing" is Grapple.

Both Grapple and Trip can take someone to the ground, but Trip is designed to unbalance without grappling with them.

I daresay that any non-grabbing contact with the leg of an Olympic long-jumper as he jumps past you won't stop his progress but rather, it will just spoil his landing. Likewise with "clotheslining" him.

Sure, any such contact will alter his trajectory and he may not face-plant at exactly the same spot he had intended to feet-plant, but probably fairly close (which is why I initially said "pretty-much").

You're mixing up descriptive and mechanics terms here. Trip doesn't have to just mean you bash someone in the shins. Conversely, grappling someone doesn't always happen simply because you momentarily grabbed onto them. There's always more than one way to skin a monk.

Look at Punishing Kick as an example: you can easily say that knocking the enemy prone is done via an unbalancing strike to the head or something. You can also knock them prone via Ki Throw, in which case no actual 'grappling' takes place despite the descriptive text pretty clearly indicating that, just as in real life, you grabbed onto part of them for a second in order to deposit them in a prone position elsewhere.

Now, none of these would qualify as a grapple by the rules, obviously. However, if we go by needlessly restrictive language concerning 'grabs', we managed to classify some such attempts mechanically as both trips AND grapples for no good reason. Doesn't seem like a desirable result or sensible process.


Bizbag wrote:
Komoda wrote:
I don't think this is possible. Isn't a jump limited to your max movement in a round? Wouldn't that make it impossible to take more than one round to resolve?

No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round, but there are circumstances where you can end your movement in the middle of a jump.

For example, Dwarfman is under fire from archers across a 20 foot chasm, and it is 30 feet away (assuming he can move 40 feet with a Withdraw action). He gets his running start, but his movement is over in the middle of the jump. He doesn't get a free 10 feet, but preventing him from jumping altogether is silly. He simply "hangs" there until his next turn. This is the edge of credibility, but it's an artifact of a turn-based system. Don't worry about it too hard and it works out fine.

If someone approaches him to try to Trip/Grapple, don't think of it as someone casually walking up to him suspended midair and batting him out of the air, think of it as them seeing him make his running start to jump, and moving to intercept.

CRB wrote:
No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.

I don't think that is what the CRB is saying. I find it really hard to believe that the above CRB quote means you are 'hanging' in mid air, but rather the jump is too much and you can't do it.

I like the comment that preventing him from jumping is silly, but him hanging in midair is not.

And if it is ruled that way, than your Dwarfman, with extra bonuses of course, could theoretically jump a 80' chasm as he is not limited to his jump, just his jump/round?

And wouldn't all of that be the same as me saying I move, then full attack, I will do the first half of my full attack in this round, and the second half in the next round, and when I am done the second half I will move again?

I really, really don't think you can split your jump action like that.


Komoda wrote:


CRB wrote:
No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.

I don't think that is what the CRB is saying. I find it really hard to believe that the above CRB quote means you are 'hanging' in mid air, but rather the jump is too much and you can't do it.

I wouldn't have any problem with this, and its not just a case of a long distance jump, but a possible case of terrain as well.

Let's say a rogue has snuck into the castle and stolen something. On his way out the guard dogs sniff him out. 55' away from him is the 10' moat that surrounds the castle. To jump it he would have to move 65', not allowed because of his movement speed. Should he be limited to only moving 55' and have to stop at the edge of the moat, let the guard dogs charge and attack him. Then on his next turn (if he is still alive and not grappled), jump the moat?

Should he really be punished simply because of the happenstance of the terrain layout? If he'd made it 5' more when stealthing before the dogs spotted him he would have been fine.


Quote:
And if it is ruled that way, than your Dwarfman, with extra bonuses of course, could theoretically jump a 80' chasm as he is not limited to his jump, just his jump/round?

If he can pull off the DC 84 check, then yes. He still has to make the check for the full distance, it would just take time to complete the movement.

And yes, it's bizarre that a midair character "hangs" between their turns, but obviously that's not what actually happens; it's just an artifact of a turn based system, just like how technically a character is locked in place and can't run from an attacker when it's not their turn.
If two people are 10' away, and running in the same direction, they'll usually maintain that distance as they go. In a turn based system, they keep passing each other as they take run actions; but again, that's not to say it's what literally happens.

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