Am I missing something or is Beast Shape III insane?


Advice


So while looking at the possible monsters that I could morph into I was mostly looking at large animals, but when I was checking out magical beasts later on I found something truly scary:

Cave Leech.
Riptide Horror.

So... umm.... 9 and 12 natural attacks? Also looking at the attack bonuses the tentacles are not considered as secondary attacks. Also has grab AND reach.

So if you build a character with morphing in mind such as a Dragon Disciple you can reasonably achieve ~28-30 Str by the time you are able to cast Beast Shape III which means that the 1d4 die of the tentacle doesn't matter since you will be adding +10 from Str or more if you are power attacking or using amulet of mighty fists for some extra d6s. I do have to admit that when you run into DR you will probably cry.

Also an Oracle with the Dark Tapestry mystery has this:

Many Forms (Su): As a standard action, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium humanoid, as the alter self spell. At 7th level, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium animal, as beast shape I. At 11th level, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium magical beast, as beast shape III. At 15th level, you can assume a variety of forms, as greater polymorph. You can use this ability for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. You must be at least 3rd level to select this revelation.

Along with the favored class bonus of the Aasimar which would allow Beast Shape III at level 8:
Oracle Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation.

So is it just me or this is very strong? What if the alchemist shares an infusion with the Barbarian that enrages and delivers 12 attacks with insane bonuses?


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Yes it's very strong. You're using 3rd party monsters that were clearly not designed with beast shape III in mind, possibly along with some classes (Dragon Disciple*, Oracle, Alchemist) that would not have been playtested this way and a race (aasimar) which was also playtested that way.

Yes it's very strong. So don't do it. Also note that rule zero means a DM can just say you get only three attacks. When DMs can't control the rules, the game suffers.

*Playtesting is much more limited than people think, and this kind of mixing-and-matching of sources would evade even the usual optimization calculations. I think the Dragon Disciple is in the core book, but even so, nobody has time to playtest prestige classes the way base classes get playtested.


Those two monsters are 3rd Party. There aren't many good Magical Beasts IIRC. It would still be a nice buff though turning into an Allosaurus for example.


The aurumvorax has five attacks, all primary, and rake.


Oh, that's what I get for looking at potential monsters in an Excel spreadsheet. I didn't notice that those were 3rd party monsters.


Giant octopus + overland flight

Core books and 9 base attacks


Aside from that... yeah the magical beast options arent great since you don't get most of the really good abilities from beast shape


Given the octopus example, someone should ask the FAQ people if Beast Shape should have a limit to the number of attacks it can give. I don't think more than three or four attacks are reasonable.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Kimera757 wrote:
someone should ask the FAQ people if Beast Shape should have a limit to the number of attacks it can give.

Why? Is the rules unclear? Do you know of a line that limits the number of attacks and you wonder if it applies here?


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I agree with James (OMG!), I don't see a reason for a limit.

Liberty's Edge

Where does it say that you get the natural attacks that the form has?


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Heh, this takes me back to the 3.5 days of 8-armed hasted sneak attacking rogues doing 500 damage per round...


In the base rules for polymorph effects

Polymorph wrote:
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.


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Polymorphamory might be helpful.


James Risner wrote:
Kimera757 wrote:
someone should ask the FAQ people if Beast Shape should have a limit to the number of attacks it can give.

Why? Is the rules unclear? Do you know of a line that limits the number of attacks and you wonder if it applies here?

Or is there an errata request thread instead?


What about if a wizard cast this spell on his familiar? Would he FINALLY stop forgetting it on his shoulder?


Azten wrote:
Polymorphamory might be helpful.

That was a really good read.


Mark Hoover wrote:
What about if a wizard cast this spell on his familiar? Would he FINALLY stop forgetting it on his shoulder?

You certainly can... familiars tend to have low physical stats to begin with so they aren't going to be that great when shaped... but its definitely an option


Mark Hoover wrote:
What about if a wizard cast this spell on his familiar? Would he FINALLY stop forgetting it on his shoulder?

To be fair...if he was the kind to think of his familiar so little that he keeps forgetting about it, he'd probably have gone with arcane bond.

Or upgraded to improved familiar by the time he got beast shape 3 and have an arbiter or something using wands for him.


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Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Giant Octopus being better for several reasons:

1) It's not 3rd party
2) It only takes Beast Shape II
3) It has a land speed and you do not lose the ability to breath air by polymorphing into one (though you do get to breath under water because you have a swim speed)

9 Attacks (8 with extra reach), and when you get to Beast Shape 3, one is poisonous. That's nasty.


mplindustries wrote:

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Giant Octopus being better for several reasons:

3) It has a land speed and you do not lose the ability to breath air by polymorphing into one (though you do get to breath under water because you have a swim speed)

Am I missing something here? Giant Octopus is (aquatic) and does not have the amphibious special quality, so I'm at a loss as to how you don't lose your ability to breathe air while in this form. Also, swim speed doesn't determine if you can breathe underwater, the (aquatic) or (water) subtype does. There are literally multitudes of Bestiary examples that have swim speeds but cannot breathe water.


Brotato wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Giant Octopus being better for several reasons:

3) It has a land speed and you do not lose the ability to breath air by polymorphing into one (though you do get to breath under water because you have a swim speed)

Am I missing something here? Giant Octopus is (aquatic) and does not have the amphibious special quality, so I'm at a loss as to how you don't lose your ability to breathe air while in this form. Also, swim speed doesn't determine if you can breathe underwater, the (aquatic) or (water) subtype does. There are literally multitudes of Bestiary examples that have swim speeds but cannot breathe water.

An actual Giant Octopus can't breathe air, but an air-breather polymorphed into an Octopus can breathe air just fine because you do not acquire the aquatic subtype. Futher, the rules of polymorphing specifically call out a swim (or burrow) speed as being the determining factor for breath.

You can breathe underwater by polymorphing into many creatures that can't, themselves, actually breath underwater (such as a crocodile, for example).

Relevant Text:

"Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form." (Emphasis mine)


mplindustries wrote:
*snip*

Thanks, mlp. I read that paragraph like 3 times but apparently missed it every time.


Brotato wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Giant Octopus being better for several reasons:

3) It has a land speed and you do not lose the ability to breath air by polymorphing into one (though you do get to breath under water because you have a swim speed)

Am I missing something here? Giant Octopus is (aquatic) and does not have the amphibious special quality, so I'm at a loss as to how you don't lose your ability to breathe air while in this form. Also, swim speed doesn't determine if you can breathe underwater, the (aquatic) or (water) subtype does. There are literally multitudes of Bestiary examples that have swim speeds but cannot breathe water.

For example, see the "Helpful Notes" box for polymorph. Gaining swim speed allows for water breathing. But it does not take away regular breathing.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph


The octopus has mostly secondary attacks, which is a pretty serious disadvantage.

For contrast a Cleric with the animal and plains domains can, at level, pounce twice per day from the latter domain while having Beast Shape III in her highest domain slot from the former. As the arumvorax Azten suggests above pouncing means 9 primary natural attacks.

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