So I was looking at a few things today and came across something that caught me a bit off guard, basically how would the Agile Weapon Enhancement work with Dragon Style Feat.
You call upon the spirit of dragonkind, gaining greater resilience, mobility, and fierceness from the blessing of these great beings.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Normal: You cannot charge or run through difficult terrain, and you cannot charge through a square that contains an ally. With an unarmed strike, you usually add your Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Weight -
DESCRIPTION
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Assuming you have an Amulet of Mighty Fist with Agile on it.
Dragon Style states "Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round."
Agile states "A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons."
Well your Unarmed Strike is clearly not a two-handed weapon, but it still uses 1.5 Str for the first attack in a given round, would you then gain 1.5 Dex for this first attack?
Following this, how about Dragon Ferocity?
You attack with the strength of a dragon, your telling blows striking fear into your enemies.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Stunning Fist, Acrobatics 5 ranks.
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
Special: Taking this feat allows you to qualify for the Elemental Fist feat even if you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites. If you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites, you must choose one of the damage types that feat offers, and you can use only that damage type with your Elemental Fist attacks until you meet the feat’s normal prerequisites. A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds.
Could this be:
A) Any damage modifier using Strength, you can choose to apply an appropriate amount of Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon instead? (example: First US attack in a round gets 1.5 Dex to US damage, and with Dragon Ferocity all US attack gain a Bonus .5 Dex to all US damage.(very unlikely since DF is an extra bonus and thus not applicable? but due to Agile's wording it is a bit unclear)
B) First US in a round gets 1.5 Dex to US damage, and with Dragon Ferocity all attacks gain a Bonus .5 Str to US damage.(seems more likely)(however the 1.5 is not from Two-Handed weapon and could be applicable, and seems this is how it should work)
or
C) First US in a round gets 1.5 Str, or 1.0 Dex to US damage, and with Dragon Ferocity all attacks gain a Bonus .5 Str to US damage.(seems most likely, but then makes DS useless for low Str/high Dex builds)(like MoMS Dex build, dosnt need to meet prerequisites if DS,DF taken as MoMS 1,2,6,10,14 or 18th level bonus feats)
Just food for thought :)
Not an official rules team answer but I asked JJ awhile back:
I would not. Dexterity is already a SUPER useful skill. If you're going to add weapon damage to what it modifies along with so many skills, saves, AC, Initiative and attack rolls, that's already really good. Other feats that add Str bonus or otherwise manipulate or enhance Str bonuses do not play well at all with Agile.In general would you allow feats that add Str bonus such as Dragon Ferocity to be interchangeable with Dex if the PC had Agile enchantment? Or would that be a case by case issue for the rules forum?
** spoiler omitted **
When I tried searching for existing post related to this I didn't come up with anything, so thank you for posting this Ataraxias.
Also, this is exactly what I expected from JJ, however it doesn’t specifically say anything about Dragon Style >.> that's my main question since its not actually adding, just using a different multiplier.
Not an official rules team answer but I asked JJ awhile back:
I would not. Dexterity is already a SUPER useful skill. If you're going to add weapon damage to what it modifies along with so many skills, saves, AC, Initiative and attack rolls, that's already really good. Other feats that add Str bonus or otherwise manipulate or enhance Str bonuses do not play well at all with Agile.In general would you allow feats that add Str bonus such as Dragon Ferocity to be interchangeable with Dex if the PC had Agile enchantment? Or would that be a case by case issue for the rules forum?
** spoiler omitted **
Dragon Style modifies your STR bonus to damage
An agile weapon let you change your damage bonus from STR to DEX
You have to chose one ability score for your damage bonus .. STR or DEX. So you only get the benefit of Dragon Style or Agile Weapon.
Dragon Ferocity has the usage of Dragon Style as prerequisite. In my opinion you dont use DS if you use DEX for damage.
Answer D) First US gets 1.5 STR + 0.5 STR or 1.0 DEX, all other attacks get 1.0 STR + 0.5 STR or 1.0 DEX
Dragon Style modifies your STR bonus to damage
An agile weapon let you change your damage bonus from STR to DEXYou have to chose one ability score for your damage bonus .. STR or DEX. So you only get the benefit of Dragon Style or Agile Weapon.
Dragon Ferocity has the usage of Dragon Style as prerequisite. In my opinion you dont use DS if you use DEX for damage.
Answer D) First US gets 1.5 STR + 0.5 STR or 1.0 DEX, all other attacks get 1.0 STR + 0.5 STR or 1.0 DEX
Well there is the issue of "using" Dragon Style, it could be argued that unless I use EVERY aspect of it, then I'm not using it, but Dragon Style gives more than just the modification to my Unarmed Strike Damage.
RAI "using" would mean being in the dragon stance.("activating" Dragon Style when in combat.)But that's another thread in and of itself.
A general rule to follow is feats or spells do what they say they do. More or less dragon style doesn't care about your agile weapon property. Str to damage is 98% the norm in the game and dex will never be calles out unless specifically intended.
I guess its more of a timing thing with them, because how they are worded it could be interpreted different ways.
A) Str modified by DS to 1.5 Str, then replaced by Dex at 1.0 modifier.
B) Str modified by DS to 1.5 Str, then replaced by Dex at 1.5 modifier.
C) Dex replaces Str, then modified by DS to 1.5 Dex modifier.
D) Dex replaces Str, then unmodifiable by DS for 1.0 Dex modifier.
The issue is in the wording "A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier." Mind you this event would only occur if you try to choose to use Dex on this attack while also choosing to add the Str multiplier.
A or D seem the most likely, because they both modify the damage by modifying the base stat used in some way making them mutually exclusive and thus unable to work with one another.
Or by modifying the base stat used then modifying it again; do they stack and complement one another, or dose one override the other?
I personally would rule in favour of mutually exclusive and you must chose either one or the other, since DS gives you other advantages besides the extra damage and is also a prerequisite for DF and DR. It may not be the most efficient choice of feats, but not a complete waste either.
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RAW, the answer is no. Reach as much as you like.
RAI, I'm sure you could argue this with your DM and possibly get away with it. It's not exactly gamebreaking. If it were my table I would probably allow it too.
Weapon Finesse:
"Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls."
Dragon Style:
"Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round."
You're using your IUS I take it.
First of all, it states you "may use your Dex mod INSTEAD of Str mod on ATTACK rolls. Dragon Style states that you may add 1.5 times your Str bonus on the DAMAGE roll. Even though Str mod was replaced by Dex mod, it's STILL A DEX MOD THAT YOU ARE USING.
It's very easy to understand that you are purely relying on your Dex mod, instead of your Str mod. Dragon Style would not cooperate with Agile enchantment or Weapon Finesse - Since that is once again, your Dex mod.
PS - Anything can be interpreted as anything; especially when we want something to work how we prefer it.
You made a bit of a mistake here, Weapon Finesse and Dragon Style will "stack" (don't know if stack is the right word since they have nothing to do with one another) with no question.
Weapon finesse is for attack rolls.
Dragon Style is for damage rolls.
Thus Weapon Finesse and Dragon Style is non issue.
Just as a a thrown weapon uses Dex to Attack but Str to Damage, they are separate situations.
Also this has no impact on any game, (be it ran by me, or that I am a part of) it was just something I came across as I was exploring ideas for a Character (that will probably never see the light of day) and wondered what others interpretation of such an event would be and thus how they would rule it.
But to say Weapon Finesse and Dragon Style don’t work together is just plain wrong by RAW.
P.S. How I want it to work is you get 1.5 Dex to damage, how I would actually rule that it works is either 1.5 Str or 1.0 Dex to damage (one or the other, not both)
RAW, the answer is no. Reach as much as you like.
RAI, I'm sure you could argue this with your DM and possibly get away with it. It's not exactly gamebreaking. If it were my table I would probably allow it too.
It's very easy to understand that you are purely relying on your Dex mod, instead of your Str mod. Dragon Style would not cooperate with Agile enchantment or Weapon Finesse - Since that is once again, your Dex mod.
PS - Anything can be interpreted as anything; especially when we want something to work how we prefer it.
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I see it as a order of operations question and either way it ends up the same.
Lets say you use Dragon Style first:
You make 1 unarmed strike you add 1 x Str as normal and then change to 1.5 x Str from the feat for a total of 1.5 x Str damage.
Then Agile comes into play and converst the 1.5 Str damage to 1 x Dex damage, nothing in Agile says you get the modified bonus for Str and in fact when its called out says you don't. Therefore you get 1 x Dex damage.
Lets take Agile first:
You make 1 unarmed strike and add 1 x Str damage then convert it to +1 Dex damage with the agile property.
Dragon Style then comes into play and you change your normal + 1 x Str to damage to 1.5 x Str to damage but since you aren't adding 1 x Str to damage it doesn't apply at all and deal 1 x Dex damage.
Now with Dragon Ferocity because its a separate bonus I would say you deal 1 x Dex damage + .5 x Str damage which makes it of limited use to most builds.
Kazaan, in all your infinite wisdom I agree, but how did you get the Dex to drop to +4 for the attack but stay at +5 to damage?
... you strange strange person....
Dragon Style wouldn't boost dex to damage with agile, but the half strength to damage from Ferocity is separate and segregated. So, with +1 Agile on your Unarmed Strikes (doing 1d6 for the sake of example) and having a +5 Dex mod along with a +2 Str mod, and +1 BAB, you'd get the following:
To hit: +1(BAB) +5(Dex) +1(Enh) = +7
Damage: 1d6 +4(Dex) +1(Str/2) +1(Enh) = 1d6+6
Taenia, may I ask what exactly you mean by this? Agile states you don't get 1.5 Dex for Two-Handed Weapons(or wielding a One-Handed Weapon in two hands) but DS is not the same as Two-Handed.
Regardless as I already stated, I agree we would rule it the same way and as such only 1.0 Dex or 1.5 Str. DF would still give .5 Str to all attacks as well.
nothing in Agile says you get the modified bonus for Str and in fact when its called out says you don't. Therefore you get 1 x Dex damage.
TGMaxMaxer Oh! first person to argue it the other way!
However my point on this would be, dose Agile modify the way the other feat works? Agile only states it changes what Bonus is used in the Damage Roll calculations, not that it modifies other feats that play a part in the Damage Roll calculations.And thus the real issue with the wording of the two feats until an official clarification.
Actually, why don't we do exactly what the feats tell us to and see how it reads then.
Basically arguments for the sake of arguments. Since by RAW or RAI the English language is not clear enough for a specific ruling in this instance.
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Oh! first person to argue it the other way!
However my point on this would be, dose Agile modify the way the other feat works? Agile only states it changes what Bonus is used in the Damage Roll calculations, not that it modifies other feats that play a part in the Damage Roll calculations.And thus the real issue with the wording of the two feats until an official clarification.
Actually, why don't we do exactly what the feats tell us to and see how it reads then.Basically arguments for the sake of arguments. Since by RAW or RAI the English language is not clear enough for a specific ruling in this instance.
I am completely with TGMaxMaxer on this. The language is quite clear. Anytime you apply your STR modifier to damage, Agile allows you to apply your DEX modifier if you wish.
I am completely with TGMaxMaxer on this. The language is quite clear. Anytime you apply your STR modifier to damage, Agile allows you to apply your DEX modifier if you wish.
But if it were so clear, there wouldn't be an plausible argument for both sides, it would be unanimously one way or the other.
Kazaan's reading makes the most sense to me.
Agile does not say "replace all instances of Strength Bonus with Dexterity Bonus" - it has a specific meaning.
Kazaan's reading makes the most sense to me.
you mean except for the weird +4/+5 Dex? Then, Yes, it dose.
Wait, you mean you agree that you can replace Str with Dex from the agile reading, then still add 1/2 Str from the Dragon Style chain?
No.
But I agree it can be argued both ways in this instance for either Str, or Dex due to the wording, I already stated this in previous messages. However the Dragon Ferocity is the not main issue here, its Dragon Style, after this is solved one could move on to Dragon Ferocity and if it can be replaced with Dex at a later time.
If you are referring to Kazaan then hes saying 1.0 Dex overrides the 1.5 Str if you choose to use Dex.
The additional 0.5 Str to Damage is from Dragon Ferocity.
His stance is its either Str or Dex for Dragon Style, and then Dragon Ferocity is Str and only Str, no choice in the matter.
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I though the fury's fall ruling came from the idea that you couldn't add your dex twice to something because you are effectively adding the same type of bonus, a "dex" bonus same way you can't add Cha to saves twice by using two classes with that ability.
As for Dragon Style I think TGM may have a point with the 1.5 times strength = 1.5 times dex. I looked at it like a 2 handed weapon and that being one example of how to get 1.5 x Str and this was not viable for the feat. By the reading though that is the only situation that would apply and I can see the reasoning behind it.
I don't think Dragon Ferocity is the same. Agile replaces the Str modifier for weapon damage rolls. If you look at a weapon damage roll it is Weapon Damage + Str Modifier. You can add to this with feats, traits etc.. but what Agile does is change this to Weapon Damage + Dex modifier.
Dragon Ferocity is not a change to the damage roll its bonus damage = to 1/2 str mod just like weapon spec or arcane strike add to damage. Agile wouldn't change it for that reason.
And yet again, both sides as RAW/RAI still put up a good fight :)
Kazumetsa Raijin, I apologize, I did misinterpret your post. If you notice in my Original Post I mentioned you can gain these Feats using the Bonus Feats from the Monk Archetype (Master of Many Styles) at 1st,2nd,6th,10th,14th,and 18th levels without having to meet the prerequisites (except for the earlier feat in that chain.)
Edit* You deleted your post. >.>
I never said they cannot be used at the same time or that they don't stack. You just can't use the Dex changes from WF and Agile in place of the STR requirement for DS.
Again apparently a misinterpretation of what you meant in your deleted post.
Edit* I think I'm tired from reading so much text already today. @.@
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I have another question about dragon style. My character is a white haired witch\ki mystic monk. So her strength run off her intellect with her hair attack. I have the feral combat training feat which allows me to flurry of hair. So my question is would dragon style work with my hair which as stated above gains its strength through my intellect, would it increase the damage? It may sound stupid so I apologise but any help would be awesome. \^_^/ thanks Xx