I know, I know, the text says "dice" but do you really think this feat adds extra damage that can be multiplied and actually multiply it by 8 when the most the weapon damage dice gets multiplied by is 4.
No.
It has to be a mistake. Surely the intention was for the feat to work exactly as it currently does with the exception of allowing other listed stuff getting multiplied as well and by the same amount based on how many of the original three feat's you have. VS, IVS, GVS.
It's still awesome! So awesome I can see some DM's nerfing it a bit by just allowing strength to get multiplied or perhaps strength and enhancement bonuses the weapon has
If you take the feat as written and start adding everything and multiplying it all by 8 you may as well remove one handed weapons from the game as well as shields, who want that tat when a greatsword gives you a thousand damage.
Errata required!
Because the wording says the damage is multiplied by the number of dice you roll. Greater Vital Strike with a greatsword means you roll 8d6.
Let's say you have 30 strength with +3 from weapon training, and a +3 weapon, and we add another 5 from magic buff's etc so far from optimized, you get 42 or 63 with IVS or 84 with GVS. That looks like pretty good damage to me but the munchkins are using x8 and are getting over 1000 damage.
Remember when you took vital strike the first time with your greatsword? You took it for an average 7 extra damage, yeah 7.
A breakdown of how please?
That looks like pretty good damage to me but the munchkins are using x8 and are getting over 1000 damage.
You can get 1k using x4
With all the extras and full optimization, you can get static damage bonuses in the 80's or 90's, or even higher, before multipliers are applied.
In order to get to 1k, you need bonuses of over 250.
|
+42 Strength (two-handed fighter, overhand chop)
+24 Greater Power Attack
. +6 Weapon Training
. +9 Mythic Weapon Specialization
. +5 Arcane Strike
. +5 Enhancement
. +4 Bane/Mythic Bane (added via Mythic Arcane Strike)
= +95
Fleet Charge + Mythic Initiative results in
8d6+95
20d6+480
20d6+480
=48d6+1055
*Even though I hit with a 1, I'll still roll on the 30% chance I crit (in which case my total multiplier for that blow would be x8).
|
|
In order to get to 1k, you need bonuses of over 250.That looks like pretty good damage to me but the munchkins are using x8 and are getting over 1000 damage.
You can get 1k using x4
With all the extras and full optimization, you can get static damage bonuses in the 80's or 90's, or even higher, before multipliers are applied.
Or the ability to take more than 1 standard action per round.
An ability that comes standard at mythic tier 1.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well if you can find a DM stupid enough to allow any player all that stuff, not to mention the cost Of buying it good luck.
Moreover why? If a demon lord has 700 hit points and you can one shot him why are you playing this game?
It's like a pissing contest, have you forgotten it's a roleplaying game!
|
|
Well if you can find a DM stupid enough to allow any player all that stuff, not to mention the cost Of buying it good luck.
There is nothing particularly exotic in the rules or equipment used to achieve those numbers. No grey areas or questionable rules interpretations. All the abilities and gear I used to reach those numbers are well understood in their implementation.
I agree, it is not right. Rocket tag is less than fun. Raising awareness of the issue is one way to have it addressed.
|
|
Wait, something seems off. I thought all multiplies ADD +1 when another X 2 shows up. Even the mythic ones. To be fair stuart haffenden, a LOT of fights post 15 levels, mythic or not turn into he who hits first wins.
A there are ways to increase the critical multiplier of a weapon.
A fighter with weapon mastery and mythic improved critical can use a Nodachi with base stats of (1d10/15-20/x4)
A level 20 kensai with mythic improved critical can boost a non-magical scimitar to (1d6/15-20/x5) on a per hit basis.
A greater artifact with foe-biting can double the damage after criticals are applied.
|
|
Yes but doesn't the X to damage cap at X6? I thought they errated that and said the MAX any X's mulipliers can get to is X6. Hell I think it's in the decription of some of the mulplier powers in the mythic book as well.
Critical Multiplier, yes.
Technically, Vital Strike is not even a multiplier, it is just adding bonus damage that is not multiplied on a critical.
Benefit: Your critical multiplier with your chosen weapon is increased by 1 (to a maximum of ×6).
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
Benefit: Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, multiply the Strength bonus, magic bonus, and other bonuses that would normally be multiplied on a critical hit by the number of weapon damage dice you roll for that feat.
Extra damage from sources that wouldn't normally be multiplied on a critical hit isn't multiplied by this feat.
I explained this in the erata thread but here goes.
First, all of the mythic feats modify the existing feats. The wording of those feats takes priotity. So vital strike tells us when it talks about weapon damage dice its the unit listed under the weapons damage.
Second vital strike imp vital strike adds this damage dice in units.
This means if you do + 95 and use vital strike your doing (weapon damage + weapon damage) + ( static bonuses x 2 ) + random dice bonuses.
Ie the above example 4d6+190. Which is still alot of damage.
Lastly your crit multiplier plqys no role unless you crit.
Mythic vital strike extra damage does not crit.
On a non-crit you do 4x damage.
On a X2 weapon mythic vital strike crit you do 5x damage.
+42 Strength (two-handed fighter, overhand chop)
+24 Greater Power Attack
. +6 Weapon Training
. +9 Mythic Weapon Specialization
. +5 Arcane Strike
. +5 Enhancement
. +4 Bane/Mythic Bane (added via Mythic Arcane Strike)= +95
Fleet Charge + Mythic Initiative results in
8d6+95
20d6+480
20d6+480=48d6+1055
*Even though I hit with a 1, I'll still roll on the 30% chance I crit (in which case my total multiplier for that blow would be x8).
Hmm... If what you say is true, then a PC with a +42 strength bonus can break the game!
I can't believe the designers didn't think of that!
Sigh his critical multiplier plays no role in mythic vital strike.
|
|
I explained this in the erata thread but here goes.
First, all of the mythic feats modify the existing feats. The wording of those feats takes priotity. So vital strike tells us when it talks about weapon damage dice its the unit listed under the weapons damage.Second vital strike imp vital strike adds this damage dice in units.
This means if you do + 95 and use vital strike your doing (weapon damage + weapon damage) + ( static bonuses x 2 ) + random dice bonuses.
Ie the above example 4d6+190. Which is still alot of damage.
Lastly your crit multiplier plqys no role unless you crit.
Greater Vital Strike is x4 weapon dice. The feats are quoted a few posts up for reference.
This gives +480 static damage.
No part of my numbers included the critical multiplier, other that being noted as a reason to actually make a to-hit roll.
|
|
Hmm... If what you say is true, then a PC with a +42 strength bonus can break the game!
I can't believe the designers didn't think of that!
There are a lot of different abilities coming into play here.
The ability to obtain an obscene strength score
The ability to stack a large number of static bonuses
The ability to take two standard actions per round
The ability to multiply all the above via Mythic Vital Strike
*I failed to include Mythic Power Attack in the above numbers. The static damage bonus should be +107
@arthanos My mistake, I didn't have time to look up the other abillities as I am on my phone and made the assumption you were making the same mistake multiple other mythic vital strike threads have made. Addtionally several other posters kept bringing up criticsl threat mulripliers.
The problem is every example of mythic vital strike seems to be the extreme cases. Its a nice feat but I suspect the I hit for a thousand examples are not the norm.
So Im not really an expert on Vital strike (Cause I am of the opinion its a trap feat chain)but if Im reading it right...
Greater Vital Strike
(Base Weapon dmg X4) + Str + other damage bonuses + Crit dmg (if a crit)
Vital Strike(Mythic)
(Base Weapon dmg + Str + dmg bonuses (that usually multiply on a crit)X4) + dmg bonuses (that dont multiply on a crit) + Crit dmg (if a crit).
Is that correct? It looks like Mythic Vital strike just simply makes the whole chain worth it finally. Before it was a complete waste of feats and dps. After burning 3 feats and a Mythic Feat.... its only slightly worse then pounce or just charging the first round and then using full attack the rounds after.
|
|
So Im not really an expert on Vital strike (Cause I am of the opinion its a trap feat chain)but if Im reading it right...
Greater Vital Strike
(Base Weapon dmg X4) + Str + other damage bonuses + Crit dmg (if a crit)Vital Strike(Mythic)
(Base Weapon dmg + Str + dmg bonuses (that usually multiply on a crit)X4) + dmg bonuses (that dont multiply on a crit) + Crit dmg (if a crit).Is that correct?
Looks good.
I've been running the numbers on this and I'm not getting anywhere near the numbers Artanthos is getting. Can you break down the strength for me?
Well if you're stuck with munchkin players you can always cap damage.
Maximum 100 damage/hit and maximum 500 damage /round. It would save you police-ing umpteen feat's, abilities, class features, weapon combo's etc etc etc.
Imagine the look of horror on a munchkins face... lol!
This means if you do + 95 and use vital strike ...Greater Vital Strike is x4 weapon dice. The feats are quoted a few posts up for reference.
This gives +480 static damage.
Do you mean +380 static damage? (4 x +95 = +380)
Not sure how you get from 8d6 to 20d6 - is that 4d6 base weapon damage + 4d6 bane --> 4x4d6 base + 4d6 bane?
The problem is every example of mythic vital strike seems to be the extreme cases. Its a nice feat but I suspect the I hit for a thousand examples are not the norm.I was only arguing the extreme. What I would expect from munchkin builds.
I would expect most players to deal far less.
Yeah, I play with two players that dont know the rules very well. One is playing a barbarian and the other a Fighter/rogue we just hit lvl 11. With tier 1 and mythic vital strike They would be doing about Weapon damage x3 +78 or so. Which is nice but not obscene.
the downside is that in the case of the falchion wielding fighter he would be criting less often i think. and the other character wielding Zuul probably benefits a lot more from repeated attempts at coral statues.
Im assuming for most games that will be the 'norm' approximately. Though i may be wrong. assuming differences for different weapons and such for not quite normal 'norm'.
|
|
Do you mean +380 static damage? (4 x +95 = +380)
This means if you do + 95 and use vital strike ...Greater Vital Strike is x4 weapon dice. The feats are quoted a few posts up for reference.
This gives +480 static damage.
Yes
Not sure how you get from 8d6 to 20d6 - is that 4d6 base weapon damage + 4d6 bane --> 4x4d6 base + 4d6 bane?
4d6 base weapon damage can be achieved by a large size character using a nodachi with the impact property.
There are several ways to achieve permanent large size using mythic rules. One way would be to dual path into Hierophant and take Enduring Blessing in conjunction with Elemental Body III (acquired via legendary item).
Higher numbers could be achieved with Elemental Body IV, but huge size is extremely awkward indoors.
20d6 was the result of 4(4d6)+4d6, where the extra 4d6 is bonus damage from Bane + Mythic Bane.
|
|
I've been running the numbers on this and I'm not getting anywhere near the numbers Artanthos is getting. Can you break down the strength for me?
20 base
5 level10 mythic
5 inherent
6 enhancement
6 size
2 profane
= 54 STR = +22 bonus
Overhand Chop has a x2 multiplier for strength.
*(I still had Elemental Body IV in my numbers when I added them up the first time, which would give a +8 size bonus to strength. I went with Elemental Body III for only +6 when I did my final numbers. Huge size has issues. As stated in my previous post, this can be given a 24 hour duration via Enduring Blessing, making the bonus permanent.)
I've been running the numbers on this and I'm not getting anywhere near the numbers Artanthos is getting. Can you break down the strength for me?20 base
5 level
10 mythic
5 inherent
6 enhancement
6 size
2 profane= 54 STR = +22 bonus
Overhand Chop has a x2 multiplier for strength.
*(I still had Elemental Body IV in my numbers when I added them up the first time, which would give a +8 size bonus to strength. I went with Elemental Body III for only +6 when I did my final numbers. Huge size has issues. As stated in my previous post, this can be given a 24 hour duration via Enduring Blessing, making the bonus permanent.)
Fair enough. When doing my calculations, I was assuming just a single classed Champion since the goal for me was to replicated it with as little munchkining as possible. Which, with those numbers, I'm closer to 480, though not quite. Very powerful though. And costs 2-3, depending on if you are Fleet Charging or using Mythic Arcane Strike. Though since you don't really have a caster level, I don't think Arcane Strike improves. Not that it matters, since you already have high enough damage haha.
Looking back at the Elemental Body 3, here's what you need for path abilities. You'd need the Legendary Item once and Enduring Blessing twice to have Elemental Body capable of being cast on you for 24 hours. This is assuming that you hold off on Legendary Item for five tiers so you can be MT 6 and have enough to fully use Intelligent item and two instances of Spellcasting to get Elemental Body III, as well as be able to cast it at MT 6 (since it's a level 6 spell).
However, these abilities are added one at a time per day, and I don't know if you can save those points you get from the Spellcasting legendary ability to carry over to the next time you gain spellcasting. It doesn't say you can or can't, and that's ultimately up to the GM I suppose.
In addition, spells cast by the legendary item count as spell-like abilities. I don't think these are valid targets for Enduring Blessing, which states that it works on spells. However, as a fighter, you could still take Divine Source and your second time, choose any of the elemental domains to get Elemental Body 4 and cast it as a spell-like ability. It still can't be extended via Enduring Blessing, but it's still a way to do it along with the legendary item. More path intensive though, but you can cast the mythic version of it (and the lesser versions) if you take Mythic Spellcasting.
Course, it doesn't change the fact that it's Vital Strike that's the main issue here. That definitely needs to be looked at, especially once the Bestiary 4 comes out and we can see all the defensive options available to mythic creatures.
Will B4 include mythic monsters?
|
|
Fair enough. When doing my calculations, I was assuming just a single classed Champion since the goal for me was to replicated it with as little munchkining as possible. Which, with those numbers, I'm closer to 480, though not quite. Very powerful though. And costs 2-3, depending on if you are Fleet Charging or using Mythic Arcane Strike. Though since you don't really have a caster level, I don't think Arcane Strike improves. Not that it matters, since you already have high enough damage haha.
Caster level = 20 (24 if a mythic paragon), comes with the ability to cast spells, granted by the legendary item.
In addition, spells cast by the legendary item count as spell-like abilities. I don't think these are valid targets for Enduring Blessing, which states that it works on spells. However, as a fighter, you could still take Divine Source and your second time, choose any of the elemental domains to get Elemental Body 4 and cast it as a spell-like ability. It still can't be extended via Enduring Blessing, but it's still a way to do it along with the legendary item. More path intensive though, but you can cast the mythic version of it (and the lesser versions) if you take Mythic Spellcasting.
The Arcane Strike and SLA FAQ's made it fairly clear that casting a spell as an SLA counts as casting the spell. Since Enduring Blessing is not a meta-magic feat, it should be applicable.
Precedents include Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning applied to Summon Monster SLA's and the Dimensional Agility feat tree.