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QUESTION: Do ability modifiers count as typed bonuses when considering bonus stacking rules?
- If so -
QUESTION: Do typed ability bonuses count as type [ability] or by the ability (i.e. type [dexterity])?
- If not -
QUESTION: Does the feats Agile Maneuvers and Fury’s Fall* allow someone to double up on Dexterity bonus for the Trip Combat Maneuver?
*I used the d20pfsrd link, as Cheliax: Land of the Devils does not have its web content posted anywhere else.
They both apply Dex bonus to CMB, so they wouldn't stack as far as I can tell.
QUESTION: Does the feats Agile Maneuvers and Furry’s Fall* allow someone to double up on Dexterity bonus for the Trip Combat Maneuver?
I know it's a typo but the idea of a feat to trip Furry's is humorous to me.
And I'd love to have a raw answer to this.
They both apply Dex bonus to CMB, so they wouldn't stack as far as I can tell.
Sure but it leaves a weird case that if you have Fury's Fall you add Str+Dex. If you take Agile Maneuvers after that you lose the the first part and just get +Dex. So Agile Maneuvers makes Fury's Fall worse. That's a weird rules interaction.
Plus this affects some Inquisitor stacking with double wisdom to certain skills, and also comes up in the Gun Training/ Pistol Training Pistolero issue.
If your investing two feats, and one replaces and ability score and the other adds they should both work as intended.
But we shouldn't let Gun Training/ Pistol Training stack because of a error in the class write up.
These issue really need an official look.
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They both apply Dex bonus to CMB, so they wouldn't stack as far as I can tell.Sure but it leaves a weird case that if you have Fury's Fall you add Str+Dex. If you take Agile Maneuvers after that you lose the the first part and just get +Dex. So Agile Maneuvers makes Fury's Fall worse. That's a weird rules interaction.
Plus this affects some Inquisitor stacking with double wisdom to certain skills, and also comes up in the Gun Training/ Pistol Training Pistolero issue.
If your investing two feats, and one replaces and ability score and the other adds they should both work as intended.
But we shouldn't let Gun Training/ Pistol Training stack because of a error in the class write up.
These issue really need an official look.
The point is, though, that Agile Maneuvers says you "may" not that you "must" replace Str w/ Dex. And if you have a negative Str, not adding it to your CMB is a bonus in and of itself because it is the lack of a penalty.
Secondly, it allows a Dex-based character to invest in only one ability, instead of two, to get their bonus to trip.
So lets say you had a Dex of 24 and a Strength of 14 (reasonable for a Dex fighter build). Normally, Fury's Fall would give you a +9 to trip. And you have to invest at least 2 points (assuming you put your racial bonus in Str and started with an 18 Dex instead of 20) or more realistically 5 points in Strength and 17 points in Dex.
If you doubled up Dex, for the cost of 1 feat, you go from a +9 to a +14, which is a difference of 5. Other than simply using your Dex instead of Strength potentially increasing your bonus by that or more, you still only get one ability bonus. Assuming you only invest feats in things that you have positive ability modifiers for, there is no other feat that grants you more than a +2 to a combat related ability.
Does this seem right to you that a splat book feat could change that?
So lets say you had a Dex of 24 and a Strength of 14 (reasonable for a Dex fighter build). Normally, Fury's Fall would give you a +9 to trip. And you have to invest at least 2 points (assuming you put your racial bonus in Str and started with an 18 Dex instead of 20) or more realistically 5 points in Strength and 17 points in Dex.
If you doubled up Dex, for the cost of 1 feat, you go from a +9 to a +14, which is a difference of 5. Other than simply using your Dex instead of Strength potentially increasing your bonus by that or more, you still only get one ability bonus. Assuming you only invest feats in things that you have positive ability modifiers for, there is no other feat that grants you more than a +2 to a combat related ability.
Does this seem right to you that a splat book feat could change that?
Well discounting the scaling abilities of Power Attack, Deadly Aim and such we have Combat Casting, Death or Glory, Fiendish Facade, Fiendish Resilience, Focused Eidolon, Inexplicable Luck (A +8 bonus), and quite a few more that give a +4 bonus.
All of the ones that give more than a +2 are only usable in select circumstances, Just like how Fury's Fall only works on trips.
So I am perfectly ok with the double dipping using Fury's Fall. I don't think it's too insane.
RAW, Agile Maneuvers replaces Str bonus with Dex bonus for CMB (at least per the prd).
RAI (per the fluff), Fury's Fall allows for Str bonus and Dex bonus to CMB for trip maneuvers. RAW, it adds Dex bonus to CMB when making a trip attack (per the d20pfsrd). By default, Str bonus is used for CMB so this would be adding in a previously unavailable Dex bonus as well.
But you can't add Dex bonus twice any more than you could add your Str bonus twice, so if you have Agile Maneuvers then Fury's Fall is useless to you.
Based on the RAI, though, I could see a houserule for Fury's Fall that allows both Str bonus and Dex bonus for trip maneuvers. If it ever comes up in a game I run that is likely how I would rule. Good luck!
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This has been one of the strongest questions that has been asked and FAQ'd before; the 17 FAQ's on this thread are really more:
Sep 2012 - this one apparently got an answer - no reply required; nobody knows what that means
Dec 2012
Another, Dec 2012
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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This has been one of the strongest questions that has been asked and FAQ'd before; the 17 FAQ's on this thread are really more:
Sep 2012 - this one apparently got an answer - no reply required; nobody knows what that means
17 FAQ is probably too few to get an official FAQ response.
But they have always been consistent on the "getting the same ability bonus to something twice or more is not allowed" issue.
Fury/Agile, Pisterlo/Gun Training, etc.
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Precedent seems to have been set in a way on 9/6/13:
Temporary Hit Points: Do temporary hit point from the same source stack?]
No. Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.
This prevents a creature with energy drain (which grants the creature 5 temporary hit points when used) from draining an entire village of 100 people in order to gain 500 temporary hit points before the PCs arrive to fight it.
Temporary hit points from different sources (such as an aid spell, a use of energy drain, and a vampiric touch spell) still stack with each other.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 09/06/13
So a bonus to CMB or CMD could not stack if its from the same source. That source would be Dexterity (or whatever other ability it would come from).
Precedent seems to have been set in a way on 9/6/13:
So a bonus to CMB or CMD could not stack if its from the same source. That source would be Dexterity (or whatever other ability it would come from).Temporary Hit Points: Do temporary hit point from the same source stack?]
No. Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.
This prevents a creature with energy drain (which grants the creature 5 temporary hit points when used) from draining an entire village of 100 people in order to gain 500 temporary hit points before the PCs arrive to fight it.
Temporary hit points from different sources (such as an aid spell, a use of energy drain, and a vampiric touch spell) still stack with each other.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 09/06/13
Hmmm... but you also have a feat like Dragon Ferocity which says that you can "you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus" and that is clearly meant to stack with the normal strength bonus that you get on unarmed strike rolls. More specifically, it is worded that way because a non-monk only gets 1/2 strength on an off-hand unarmed strike.
So... both strength bonuses, but both meant to be added.
QUESTION: Do ability modifiers count as typed bonuses when considering bonus stacking rules?
Yes.
QUESTION: Do typed ability bonuses count as type [ability] or by the ability (i.e. type [dexterity])?
The bonuses are typed by the ability score. For example
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD.
Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus (see Combat) instead of your Strength bonus.
QUESTION: Does the feats Agile Maneuvers and Fury’s Fall* allow someone to double up on Dexterity bonus for the Trip Combat Maneuver?
No. The bonuses are typed, and do not stack. If you have both feats, you still only add Strength and Dexterity (not using Agile Maneuvers), or just Dexterity if Strength is negative (using Agile Maneuvers).
Interesting thought, but I can't agree. First - bonuses:
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Second - the rules can't reference a "+N" for ability scores without an example ability score. But occasionally you'll see one.
Example:
The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency.
You'll also see plenty of bonuses referenced without a "+N" if they are being referred to in general, and not as a specific bonus.
Example:
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.
Or both at once:
Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses.
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Precedent seems to have been set in a way on 9/6/13:
So a bonus to CMB or CMD could not stack if its from the same source. That source would be Dexterity (or whatever other ability it would come from).Temporary Hit Points: Do temporary hit point from the same source stack?]
No. Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.
This prevents a creature with energy drain (which grants the creature 5 temporary hit points when used) from draining an entire village of 100 people in order to gain 500 temporary hit points before the PCs arrive to fight it.
Temporary hit points from different sources (such as an aid spell, a use of energy drain, and a vampiric touch spell) still stack with each other.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 09/06/13
On the other hand, they are not from the same source. They use the same source to calculate the bonus, but they are, technically, an Agile Maneuver bonus to CMB and a Fury's Fall bonus to CMB for tripping.
Now, I believe there is an FAQ or rules citation explicitly saying that you can't stack the bonus to hit from Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, but nowhere can I find anything, other than opinion, that you can't stack the bonus from Fury's Fall with either Agile Maneuvers or Weapon Finesse.
ALso, as I mentioned, you get the bonus from the feat, which uses the stat to calculate the amount of the bonus.
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Hmmm... but you also have a feat like Dragon Ferocity which says that you can "you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus" and that is clearly meant to stack with the normal strength bonus that you get on unarmed strike rolls. More specifically, it is worded that way because a non-monk only gets 1/2 strength on an off-hand unarmed strike.
So... both strength bonuses, but both meant to be added.
I would read the Dragon Ferocity bonus as untyped. It just happens that this untyped bonus is calculated as a fraction of your Strength bonus.
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Precedent seems to have been set in a way on 9/6/13:
So a bonus to CMB or CMD could not stack if its from the same source. That source would be Dexterity (or whatever other ability it would come from).Temporary Hit Points: Do temporary hit point from the same source stack?]
No. Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.
This prevents a creature with energy drain (which grants the creature 5 temporary hit points when used) from draining an entire village of 100 people in order to gain 500 temporary hit points before the PCs arrive to fight it.
Temporary hit points from different sources (such as an aid spell, a use of energy drain, and a vampiric touch spell) still stack with each other.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 09/06/13
On the other hand, they are not from the same source. They use the same source to calculate the bonus, but they are, technically, an Agile Maneuver bonus to CMB and a Fury's Fall bonus to CMB for tripping.
Now, I believe there is an FAQ or rules citation explicitly saying that you can't stack the bonus to hit from Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, but nowhere can I find anything, other than opinion, that you can't stack the bonus from Fury's Fall with either Agile Maneuvers or Weapon Finesse.
ALso, as I mentioned, you get the bonus from the feat, which uses the stat to calculate the amount of the bonus.
The source of the bonus is Dexterity, not the feat.
The feat grants you access to the Dexterity modifier as a bonus.
I think saying 'Dexterity bonus' with no type stated is essentially shorthand for 'a typeless bonus equal to your Dexterity bonus', otherwise it would say 'A (type) bonus equal to your Dexterity bonus' or 'add your Dexterity bonus as a (type) bonus', myself.
The feat is the source of the bonus, because without that feat, you wouldn't get the bonus.
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I think saying 'Dexterity bonus' with no type stated is essentially shorthand for 'a typeless bonus equal to your Dexterity bonus', otherwise it would say 'A (type) bonus equal to your Dexterity bonus' or 'add your Dexterity bonus as a (type) bonus', myself.
The feat is the source of the bonus, because without that feat, you wouldn't get the bonus.
The term "source" is meaningless in the rules. There is nothing within the rules that tell you to determine the type of bonus it is based on the source of the bonus.
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The term "source" is meaningless in the rules. There is nothing within the rules that tell you to determine the type of bonus it is based on the source of the bonus.I think saying 'Dexterity bonus' with no type stated is essentially shorthand for 'a typeless bonus equal to your Dexterity bonus', otherwise it would say 'A (type) bonus equal to your Dexterity bonus' or 'add your Dexterity bonus as a (type) bonus', myself.
The feat is the source of the bonus, because without that feat, you wouldn't get the bonus.
Is that not the entirety of the argument, for ability modifiers being a typed bonuses? :)