|
I have a half-elf 5th level sorcerer that has the alternate racial trait “Arcane Training.” The character is for PFS if that makes any difference.
When I first started the PC a couple of years ago, I thought it did one thing when I read it. I was told it actually did something else. I posted here in the rules forum back then (can’t find the thread now for some reason), and was told almost unanimously that it actually meant a third thing. Now in a game I’m being told it actually works in yet a 4th manner. Here is the text from the PRD:
Arcane Training: Half-elves occasionally seek tutoring to help them master the magic in their blood. Half-elves with this racial trait have only one favored class, and it must be an arcane spellcasting class. They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class). This racial trait replaces the multitalented racial trait.
I’m stuck with the trait since it has been a part of my build past 2nd level. But I would surely like to know what it really does and how/when I can make use of it.
Can one of you that understands the RAW better than help me to understand this?
The RAW says in order to take the trait you must have an arcane spellcasting favored class. A number of classes can make use of this (but does not include PrCs).
It also states Spell Trigger and Spell Completion items; in such cases, items such as Wands and Scrolls allow you to function as 1 csater level higher.
With the example of Cure Light Wounds for a Bard, having a 1D8 + 4 for a 4th Level Half-Elf Bard, casting it from a CL 4 Wand they found from their adventures, it instead counts as 1D8 + 5.
It's about limitless; it's a really great trait and makes your wands and scrolls significantly more valuable. It can also affect other similar item types, like Staves and Rods.
|
|
1) Was as you stated Kazaan. That would be great!
2) If a magic item requires you to be X level before you can use it, you only have to be level X-1 to use it. That is the only affect. That sucks. How often do you have magic items that require X caster level that is exactly 1 higher than your current level?
3) Wand, scroll, or potion are crafted at Y caster level (usually minimum to cast). When you use one of them the effect is at Y+1 caster level. So a wand of mage armor crafted at the minimum of 1st caster level would last for 2 hours when I use it. Not great, but still pretty good.
4) Trait only gives a +1 on the caster level check to activate a scroll that you are not high enough level to cast. That is all it does. I suppose that is not completely useless, but very rarely would it be all that wonderful since you could just try again if you failed the roll.
|
|
I think there is a difference between what Kazaan and Darksol have written.
Kazaan - You are saying I would activate a magic item at my caster level +1. If I use a wand of mage armor that was crafted at caster level 1, my 5th level sorc would activate it with a 6 hour duration.
Darksol - You are saying it would be the caster level the magic item was crafted at +1. If I use a wand of mage armor that was crafted at caster level 1, my 5th level sorc would activate it with a 2 hour duration.
Do I have both of those correct?
It matters for scrolls (as noted) and staves. Staves allow you to use your CL to determine spell effects, if it is higher than the staff's CL.
|
|
It matters for scrolls (as noted) and staves. Staves allow you to use your CL to determine spell effects, if it is higher than the staff's CL.
So you agree with 4) with the addition that my 5th level sorc could activate a staff at 6th caster level if that is higher than how the staff was crafted. Correct?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This trait doesn't impact how many dice are thrown when using a scroll or wand at all because that's not based upon the caster level of the user (absent like a Scrollmaster or something along those lines).
+1 to effective spell level of any magical device used is an insanely good benefit. Far too good for a trait.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It matters for scrolls (as noted) and staves. Staves allow you to use your CL to determine spell effects, if it is higher than the staff's CL.So you agree with 4) with the addition that my 5th level sorc could activate a staff at 6th caster level if that is higher than how the staff was crafted. Correct?
It allows you to treat yourself as one level higher than you are for spell trigger and completion items. That's it. If you're a 5th level Sorcerer, you can't use a scroll of Fireball yet without a UMD check. With this trait, you can. It does nothing for variables for spells cast from scrolls because those are never based on user CL (barring very rare exceptions).
For Staves, if the spell being cast from it is CL 12 and you are also 12th level, this trait would let you cast it at CL13. If you're 15th level, you cast at 16th. If you're 11th or lower, you cast at 12th, as per usual.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So far we have:
1) Activate completion or trigger magic items at wielders caster level +1. So a wand of mage armor crafted at caster level 1 wielded by a 5th level sorc would last for 6 hours. 1 vote
2) If a magic item requires you to be X level before you can use it, you only have to be level X-1 to use it. That is the only affect. 0 votes
3) Wand, scroll, or potion are crafted at Y caster level (usually minimum to cast). When you use one of them the effect is at Y+1 caster level. So a wand of mage armor crafted at the minimum of 1st caster level would last for 2 hours when I use it. Not great, but still pretty good. 1 vote
4) Trait only gives a +1 on the caster level check to activate a scroll that you are not high enough level to cast. Any wand no effect. A staff could be activated at the wielder caster level +1 if that was higher than how it was crafted. A staff with mage armor crafted at 3rd level could be activated by a 5th level sorc with a 6 hour duration. 1 vote
Anyone else want to weigh in on this discussion?
|
|
... If you're a 5th level Sorcerer, you can't use a scroll of Fireball yet without a UMD check. With this trait, you can ...
Actually by the PRD it is a caster level check. So with the trait by your interpretation, I would have a 1d20+6 to get as high as the scroll caster level +1.
I would much rather have a UMD check. I have a +13 on UMD, so a much better chance of succeeding.
How does the language in the trait support the first interpretation at all?
... If you're a 5th level Sorcerer, you can't use a scroll of Fireball yet without a UMD check. With this trait, you can ...Actually by the PRD it is a caster level check. So with the trait by your interpretation, I would have a 1d20+6 to get as high as the scroll caster level +1.
I would much rather have a UMD check. I have a +13 on UMD, so a much better chance of succeeding.
Using a scroll for a spell you're not high enough level to use is a UMD check with DC set to 20+CL necessary for you to cast that spell. Ordinarily, it'd be DC 26 for a Sorcerer to use a third-level scroll if the Sorcerer wasn't 6th level. This trait lets you use them at 5th level and would drop the DC to 25 if you're not 5th level. It's still a UMD check to use a scroll you're not yet qualified to use.
|
|
Using a scroll for a spell you're not high enough level to use is a UMD check with DC set to 20+CL necessary for you to cast that spell. Ordinarily, it'd be DC 26 for a Sorcerer to use a third-level scroll if the Sorcerer wasn't 6th level. This trait lets you use them at 5th level and would drop the DC to 25 if you're not 5th level. It's still a UMD check to use a scroll you're not yet qualified to use.... If you're a 5th level Sorcerer, you can't use a scroll of Fireball yet without a UMD check. With this trait, you can ...Actually by the PRD it is a caster level check. So with the trait by your interpretation, I would have a 1d20+6 to get as high as the scroll caster level +1.
I would much rather have a UMD check. I have a +13 on UMD, so a much better chance of succeeding.
From the PRD.
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
• The user must have the spell on her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Bold mine.
How does the language in the trait support the first interpretation at all?I now agree that it is probably not correct. But that is how myself and at least some other people read it when they first look at it.
But I have still been given 3 other interpretations that people are absolutely sure of.
2 and 4 say basically the same thing (I just specifically mentioned scrolls because that's what it's most commonly going to be used for). 3 doesn't make much sense because the trait never mentions crafting. It says you can use spell completion/trigger items at +1 CL, not create them that way.
|
It should be noted that this statement doesn't qualify which level is being raised for the effect:
They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher
this indicates two possibilities the caster level of the item increases or your caster level to use the item increases.
Since the language seems to indicate that the level higher is affecting the word They, the caster, then its your caster level that increases and the effects never apply to wands, since your caster level never comes into play but does effect whether you can cast a spell off a scroll or the caster level of a staff.
If it applies to the spell trigger/completion item, then the caster level of the item increases by one level, so a wand of burning hands does 2d4 instead of 1d4, a wand of shield might last 2 min instead of 1 min or a bard's cure light wound wand would heal 1d8 + 2 instead of 1d8 + 1.
However one thing is clear you NEVER use your caster level on wands or scrolls. So wands are always made at a specific caster level and in PFS unless noted on the chronicle sheet, it is the minimum required to cast the spell. So you are never going to see this increase a wand;s caster level by 5 in any interpretation of the ruling, or allow you to use your caster level for scroll/wands.
|
|
... 2 and 4 say basically the same thing (I just specifically mentioned scrolls because that's what it's most commonly going to be used for)...
The interpretation I was given for 2 is not the same as 4. Based upon what I was told back then. The only time the trait would take effect is if the description of a spell trigger or completion item says you must be at least X level to use this item and you are 1 level less than X, then you can use it. That is the only time it would have any effect.
... 3 doesn't make much sense because the trait never mentions crafting. It says you can use spell completion/trigger items at +1 CL, not create them that way.
I don't mean to say anything about crafting them at a higher level. I mean activating one that is already crafted at 1 higher than the caster level it was crafted to be used at. So if a wand was already crafted as a caster level 1 item. I find it. I use it to cast the spell in it. It will activate as at caster level 2.
DC 25 UMD check at +13 or DC 17 CL check at +6. Take your pick. If the UMD check is easier, use UMD. If the CL check is easier, do a CL check.
But wands aren't dependent on a user's CL, so this trait has no effect on them. I believe the only spell trigger items this trait impacts are staves.
|
|
But wands aren't dependent on a user's CL, so this trait has no effect on them. I believe the only spell trigger items this trait impacts are staves.
If a non caster, say a fighter, took this trait he could use wands as if he was the appropriate casting class. So you could have a fighter using wands of fireball without needing to make UMD checks.
|
|
But wands aren't dependent on a user's CL, so this trait has no effect on them. I believe the only spell trigger items this trait impacts are staves.If a non caster, say a fighter, took this trait he could use wands as if he was the appropriate casting class. So you could have a fighter using wands of fireball without needing to make UMD checks.
If you are willing to give up all your favored class bonuses.
But wands aren't dependent on a user's CL, so this trait has no effect on them. I believe the only spell trigger items this trait impacts are staves.If a non caster, say a fighter, took this trait he could use wands as if he was the appropriate casting class. So you could have a fighter using wands of fireball without needing to make UMD checks.
That is true. I wasn't thinking of other class types, got a bit lazy there.
|
|
If you are willing to give up all your favored class bonuses.But wands aren't dependent on a user's CL, so this trait has no effect on them. I believe the only spell trigger items this trait impacts are staves.If a non caster, say a fighter, took this trait he could use wands as if he was the appropriate casting class. So you could have a fighter using wands of fireball without needing to make UMD checks.
I'm not saying it's a smart choice; just pointing out the option exists.
If you are willing to give up all your favored class bonuses.But wands aren't dependent on a user's CL, so this trait has no effect on them. I believe the only spell trigger items this trait impacts are staves.If a non caster, say a fighter, took this trait he could use wands as if he was the appropriate casting class. So you could have a fighter using wands of fireball without needing to make UMD checks.
Not necessarily a bad trade off for some builds, honestly.
|
|
Not necessarily a bad trade off for some builds, honestly.If you are willing to give up all your favored class bonuses.But wands aren't dependent on a user's CL, so this trait has no effect on them. I believe the only spell trigger items this trait impacts are staves.If a non caster, say a fighter, took this trait he could use wands as if he was the appropriate casting class. So you could have a fighter using wands of fireball without needing to make UMD checks.
Yeah, a friend of mine was making a half-elf archer ranger. He was considering giving up the favored class bonus so that he could use all the wizard wands. I don't remember which he decided.
I was also thinking about it for a dragon disciple build that would only have 2 levels of any non-PRC class. He could take the trait for a bard and use all their wands.
|
|
It should be noted that this statement doesn't qualify which level is being raised for the effect:
They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher
this indicates two possibilities the caster level of the item increases or your caster level to use the item increases.
Since the language seems to indicate that the level higher is affecting the word They, the caster, then its your caster level that increases and the effects never apply to wands, since your caster level never comes into play but does effect whether you can cast a spell off a scroll or the caster level of a staff.
If it applies to the spell trigger/completion item, then the caster level of the item increases by one level, so a wand of burning hands does 2d4 instead of 1d4, a wand of shield might last 2 min instead of 1 min or a bard's cure light wound wand would heal 1d8 + 2 instead of 1d8 + 1.
However one thing is clear you NEVER use your caster level on wands or scrolls. So wands are always made at a specific caster level and in PFS unless noted on the chronicle sheet, it is the minimum required to cast the spell. So you are never going to see this increase a wand;s caster level by 5 in any interpretation of the ruling, or allow you to use your caster level for scroll/wands.
So you are thinking it should be 4) but might be 3). Is that correct?
Which way would you rule if you were the PFS GM at the table?
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ok, here's the deal: The trait increases your caster level for using spell completion and spell trigger items. So here's the question, "If I were 1 level higher, how would that affect the item's usage?"
So pretend you're 3rd level Wizard.
Scroll I can use normally:
3rd level Wizard, scroll of Burning Hands (CL1): 1d4 Fire
If I'm a 4th level Wizard, scroll of Burning Hands (CL1): 1d4 Fire
So no change.
Scroll I can't use normally:
3rd level Wizard, Scroll of Fireball (CL5): Make a Caster Level check, DC 6, then 5d6 Fireball
4th level Wizard, Scroll of Fireball (CL5): Make a Caster Level check, DC 6, then 5d6 Fireball
So no change, but that Caster Level check is easier.
Wand (I can use all wands normally if the spell is anywhere on my spell list):
3rd level Wizard, Wand of Fly (CL5): Fly for 5 minutes
4th level Wizard, Wand of Fly (CL5): Fly for 5 minutes
No change.
Staves (uses Caster's level if higher):
3rd level Wizard, Staff of Burning Hands (CL1): 3d4 fire
4th level Wizard, Staff of Burning Hands (CL1): 4d4 fire
Just like you were a higher level. Major benefit.
So there you go, it does nothing for scrolls you can cast normally and wands. Minor benefit for scrolls you can't cast normally and a major benefit for staves.
Now, there's 1 more thing this trait does. If you have no Caster Level, then you are considered a 1st level character for that class. That's huge.
Picture this: A 3rd level half-elf fighter is killing enemies. He gets to the enemy wizard, who just used a Wand of Lightning Bolt on his friends. He disarms the wizard who starts to run away. The fighter calmly picks up the wand and says, "Oh, yeah, I know this. My mom was a Witch." And he calmly blasts the Wizard with the wand. How? He is considered a 1st level Witch, which gives him Lightning Bolt on his spell list. Now his favored class is Witch, meaning he gave up all favored class bonuses until this point. But it then allows him to pull out his Wand of Cure Light Wounds and heal his whole party. Then use the Wand of Dispel Magic to free his Cleric from the Hold Person spell.
Kinda badass in the right moments.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there is a difference between what Kazaan and Darksol have written.
Kazaan - You are saying I would activate a magic item at my caster level +1. If I use a wand of mage armor that was crafted at caster level 1, my 5th level sorc would activate it with a 6 hour duration.
Darksol - You are saying it would be the caster level the magic item was crafted at +1. If I use a wand of mage armor that was crafted at caster level 1, my 5th level sorc would activate it with a 2 hour duration.
Do I have both of those correct?
Scrolls have a static caster level set by the person who made the scroll; they do not adjust caster levels once set (unlike Staves, which use the higher of the two). With your example of a generic Mage Armor scroll with minimum caster and spell level (1 and 1), the spell lasts for 1 hour (since it lasts for 1 hour per level).
Now let's take the trait into account. The intent is when using spell trigger and spell completion items (scrolls, wands, staves, rods, etc.), your effective caster level is increased by 1 for the purpose of effects regarding the spell. So now instead of it being a 1 hour duration and DC 12 Dispel Magic check, it is now a 2 hour duration and DC 13 Dispel Magic check (due to the increased caster level).
That is how it is to be interpreted, both RAW and RAI. It's a very powerful racial trait for spellcasters.
|
|
...
Scrolls have a static caster level set by the person who made the scroll; they do not adjust caster levels once set (unlike Staves, which use the higher of the two). With your example of a generic Mage Armor scroll with minimum caster and spell level (1 and 1), the spell lasts for 1 hour (since it lasts for 1 hour per level).
Now let's take the trait into account. The intent is when using spell trigger and spell completion items (scrolls, wands, staves, rods, etc.), your effective caster level is increased by 1 for the purpose of effects regarding the spell. So now instead of it being a 1 hour duration and DC 12 Dispel Magic check, it is now a 2 hour duration and DC 13 Dispel Magic check (due to the increased caster level).
That is how it is to be interpreted, both RAW and RAI. It's a very powerful racial trait for spellcasters.
Do you have a FAQ or source for that interpretation? Several people seem to disagree with you.
Here is an excerpt of Scrolls from the PFSRD.
Although there is no direct mention of it, there is this little caveat I noticed:
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
Emphasis mine.
When determining the effects of a scroll, it brings up the fact that the scroll's caster level is a minimum level, and can be adjusted at the scriber's discretion. In other words, the caster level is imparted upon casting the spell, and is generally assumed to be the minimum caster level needed to cast it.
What that tells us is that when a scribe creates a scroll, (s)he imparts a set caster level as to the scroll's effects (either the assumed minimum, or an increased level for added effect as a custom scroll). Because of this, there is no way we can say it works as the user's caster level because it might vary from the scroll's (since the scroll has its own, and the caster might have an even higher caster level than the scroll), and even if the user was the scribe's, it might have been adjusted for whatever reasons needed.
I think there is a difference between what Kazaan and Darksol have written.
Kazaan - You are saying I would activate a magic item at my caster level +1. If I use a wand of mage armor that was crafted at caster level 1, my 5th level sorc would activate it with a 6 hour duration.
Darksol - You are saying it would be the caster level the magic item was crafted at +1. If I use a wand of mage armor that was crafted at caster level 1, my 5th level sorc would activate it with a 2 hour duration.
Do I have both of those correct?
Scrolls have a static caster level set by the person who made the scroll; they do not adjust caster levels once set (unlike Staves, which use the higher of the two). With your example of a generic Mage Armor scroll with minimum caster and spell level (1 and 1), the spell lasts for 1 hour (since it lasts for 1 hour per level).
Now let's take the trait into account. The intent is when using spell trigger and spell completion items (scrolls, wands, staves, rods, etc.), your effective caster level is increased by 1 for the purpose of effects regarding the spell. So now instead of it being a 1 hour duration and DC 12 Dispel Magic check, it is now a 2 hour duration and DC 13 Dispel Magic check (due to the increased caster level).
That is how it is to be interpreted, both RAW and RAI. It's a very powerful racial trait for spellcasters.
Scrolls do not change caster level once set, nor do wands. They're determined at the time of creation and set by the CL of the item. The trait increases the user's effective CL. Mage Armor cast from a scroll or a wand (with CL 1) has a duration of 1 hour, whether the character has this trait or not because that duration is not determined by the user's CL; it's determined by the creator's CL (default being minimum necessary to cast the spell). This trait has nothing to do with item creation.
If it's cast from a Staff, yes the CL could be increased. Scrolls and wands, no.
They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class).
This refer's to the character's effective level, not the item's. It has to refer to the character, otherwise the parenthetical makes no sense. If the item's effective level were increased, it would have no impact on characters who had no levels in a class. This trait means "When using magic items, treat your level in your favored class as +1 higher."
CL is generally irrelevant for most spell effects cast from most magic items. This trait does nothing to change that. There is nothing in the trait language that says "Treat scrolls/wands/etc. that cast spells from your favored class as if they were created one level higher."
Your second post recognizes the correct rule, that the effective CL of a scroll (barring specific exceptions like archetype abilities, etc.) is set at the time of creation.
Interesting deduction. Of course, I do understand why it's made going by RAW, though it makes the racial trait nigh-useless according to that interpretation.
At best, it can be used to cast a spell scroll of 4th level while the caster is only able to cast 3rd level spells without having to make a roll. Staves are pretty darn weak unless you specialize in them (Metamagic Rods are much more effective), since quite frankly Staves are only good for spells that you don't have memorized, need to have memorized constantly, or spells that are nice to have but aren't on your list.
Even if we do treat the favored class as one level higher, abilities and effects while using scrolls and wands aren't adjusted by your interpretation, and thusly the effect should essentially be written as "They can use Staves for their favored class as if one level higher," since according to your interpretation Scrolls and Wands aren't adjusted, the only other type of spell trigger/spell completion items in the game.
It might make sense via RAW, but it breaks the intent of the rule, which is to make them more versatile with spell trigger and spell completion items. Saying it hardly affects the very same things it's supposed to augment goes directly against the RAI, which I highly doubt is the intent of the Devs.
Giving an overall +1 to virtually any magic item used (particularly increasing spell effects by a caster level) is a huge benefit.
Either a Half-Elf can have two favored classes or they can increase the effective spell level of any magic item used by one. How is that even remotely balanced? I highly disagree that what you say is the intent of this alternative trait.
Fretgod's posts here are all exactly how I understand it to work (I don't understand why that isn't the obvious reading), although I don't think he was quite clear about how scroll activation works. For activating a scroll ('using a spell completion item... as if one level higher'), you would treat your caster level as one higher, ***and if that is enough to meet the caster level of the scroll, then no check is needed***. If that's still not equal to the scroll's caster level, you can choose to make a Caster Level check with the bonus from the trait, or use UMD (which doesn't benefit from the trait, since your own caster level is irrelevant to UMD). Especially if you combine this with other caster level boosts (which may be school specific, e.g. varisian tattoo), you can easily be activating scrolls MORE than one spell level above your max (as a full caster) without making any checks.
Once you get staves (or the other options to use your own caster level/casting stat/etc with wands/scrolls/etc) then it gets really nice. Perhaps people could post those specific means here?
As mentioned, it's usage for non-caster characters is sweet as well, especially if you were planning to multiclass several non-arcane caster classes and/or use PrCs (meaning you couldn't fully benefit from favored class bonus anyways). Even if you go single class, full wand usage is probably better than most favored class bonuses, on a HP basis easy wand/scroll use is usually better than a few more HPs, especially if you can't rely on a healer in the party ala PFS.
Actually, a very similar use case also applies to casters, given the difference in spell lists of arcane casters: Sorc/Wiz vs. Witch vs. Magus. Now without any UMD check, your Sorc/Wiz or Magus can use Witch wands/1st level scrolls not on the Sorc/Wiz list (CLW!), or vice versa for the Witch. That can also work with other caster level boosts to enable higher level scroll access without any checks. If you were going to be a single class caster anyways, and that's really a good idea with casters, that's just pure gain.
Giving an overall +1 to virtually any magic item used (particularly increasing spell effects by a caster level) is a huge benefit.
Either a Half-Elf can have two favored classes or they can increase the effective spell level of any magic item used by one. How is that even remotely balanced? I highly disagree that what you say is the intent of this alternative trait.
"Virtually any magic item used" does not just include spell trigger/completion items, it includes Wondrous Items, Weapons, Armor, etc. Of which hardly constitutes the sentence described. It's not as huge as you make it out to be, especially since it still applies the laws of the rest of the game. Do you get 11 Rounds of Haste from Boots of Speed instead of just 10? What about the effects of Spider Climb and the like from Wondrous Items, are they increased? No, because they aren't spell trigger/completion items.
At best, you're adding maybe an extra 1D6 from a Fireball Scroll, or increasing the duration of Shield or Mirror Image by another increment (or another image), and this only applies to spell trigger/completion items; not spells on the caster's actual repertoire. It's hardly gamebreaking (in other words, not a huge benefit) to say that my interpretation provides a major benefit. If anything, it increases the value of that caster having scrolls and wands at the ready for when feces hit the fan, a gameplay factor that should be encouraged for fun experiences.
If a race is ever going to be most effective with multi-classing, it's a Half-Elf (Humans can too, though it's honestly not worth the feat), and with what a Favored Class Bonus grants in exchange for what this Arcane Training grants, regardless of interpretation, is nothing in comparison.
|
|
I don't think anyone said any magic item. I does say it is for spell trgger and spell completion items.
Yes, I agree that activating at a +1 effective caster level is pretty good. Don't know that I would agree it is a huge benefit, but that is a minor quibble. But that is the interpritation I was given on this rules forum way back when. At the time I think it was nearly unanimous.
It sounds like we pretty much have agreement that option 4 as modified for staves is the now correct interpretation. This is not completely useless if I ever start buying staves. But it certainly isn't as great as I thought it was. I certainly wouldn't have taken it if that had been what I was told at the beginning.
It is not a horrible lose and I'm not going to whine about it. It is just a minor annoyance. But I needed it clarified since it came up in a PbP game this week and there was disagreement on how it worked.
For every first level wand the character purchases, that character is getting a 1,500 gp wand for 750. They're getting a 6,000 gp 2nd level wand for 4,500 gp. Etc. The character gets to use scrolls without a check a full level before any other caster. It's easier for the character to use higher-level scrolls as well. That alone is really beneficial.
But whether you want to call that a huge benefit or not, there's no disputing that it would be massively more beneficial than (pretty much at most) 10 hit points or skill points (or whatever other favored class bonus is being given up) over twenty levels if it works the way some are claiming. Those two benefits wouldn't be even close to being balanced.
Multitalented is a minor racial benefit, so it would only make sense for Arcane Training to be similarly minor in nature.
Multitalented lets you get favored class bonuses from two classes. It is of absolutely no use if you are single classed. So, if you start out as an arcane spellcaster and have no intentions of ever multiclassing, you might as well swap out Multitalented for Arcane Training and use its minor benefits for using scrolls that you are of too low a level to use without a check and for using staves created at or below your caster level. It is only a minor benefit, but a minor benefit is much better than no benefit.
The option of taking Arcane Talent for a class you have no levels in is great in the short term but very dubious in the long term, as the benefit is static (you can use spell completion and spell trigger items as though you were a first level member of your favorite class) but the cost keeps escalating (since you never gain a favored class bonus for any of your actual class levels). I would only consider doing that in a campaign that I knew would not continue for very long. For a longer campaign, you might actually be better off taking a level dip into your chosen favored class and sticking with Multitalented instead.
I reallly never saw this as that complicated. Any time your level is checked for a spell completion or spell trigger item your cl is 1 higher.
So a lvl 4 wizard with this can use a fireball scroll without a roll. It still does 5d6 damage. Te same wizard could cast burning hands from a staff for 5d4.
Doesnt change anything else just increases your level when the can i use it check is made and increases the power when a staff is used.
On a side note i had a plan to use this ace trait on a staff using monk a while ago. Thought it woukd be a fun use of the abiity but would need someone to charge it.
For what it's worth, I find Enchanter Tim's explanation to be correct.
For every first level wand the character purchases, that character is getting a 1,500 gp wand for 750. They're getting a 6,000 gp 2nd level wand for 4,500 gp. Etc. The character gets to use scrolls without a check a full level before any other caster. It's easier for the character to use higher-level scrolls as well. That alone is really beneficial.
But whether you want to call that a huge benefit or not, there's no disputing that it would be massively more beneficial than (pretty much at most) 10 hit points or skill points (or whatever other favored class bonus is being given up) over twenty levels if it works the way some are claiming. Those two benefits wouldn't be even close to being balanced.
Let's do the math on that then, and see what it nets them.
Taking a Wizard who buys a Wand of MM at CL 1, even applying the trait to function as a CL 2 spell, it does nothing. Even if we make it at CL 2 bumped up to CL 3, it's still going to add another 1D4+1, which is hardly worth the extra 750, considering another casting of the spell from another caster of higher level is significantly cheaper.
Shall we try a scroll? Why not, let's take a Scroll of MM at CL 6 that you found in a chest, making it CL 7 still nets the same meager benefit of 1D4+1, which, while the money cost is reduced by a fair amount, it's still not exactly worth the increase.
What about a Fireball Scroll at CL 9? Sure! Making it CL 10 does add 1D6 per target, which is nice, but is it gamebreaking or outrageous? Not at all. If it was CL 10 to start, the increased CL provides very minute benefits (range? At that CL it's pointless to have range unless sniping, in which case there are better spells for that). So the increased "money gain" in the latter is pointless, and the increased "money gain" in the former, while not pointless, is hardly gamebreaking or worth it unless against a boss fight, in which case having it not apply would suck.
So let's compare it with the other alternative, more FCBs, up to 10, you say? We'll take an average of 5 (since not many multi-classers go over that amount). Hit Points? With the MM spell increase, it's at best equal to the amount provided in damage dealt; in comparison to a Fireball, it might be slightly under, but taking average rolls, it will always remain above. With spells that add to duration, it might not compare, though in any given offensive spell which scales via CL, it's inferior.
As far as Skill Points are concerned, being unable to put points into a Knowledge or Acrobatics or other useful skill can make or break the difference of using a spell that's worthless (MM's aren't 90% of the time, but they can still easily be countered) or tumbling out of threatened squares to cast (casters can't always be one step ahead of a martial). In addition, it can also make or break a failure of crafting a magic item which increases the benefits of the caster just as much as the trait provided, if not more so.
In comparison to a FCB by race, it's difficult to say, since it depends on which race you are, but taking the Human's FCB as a fair standard, does help in freeing up gold for other valuable spells (or items), something that the trait can hardly do.
So let's sum it up.
So after I run the numbers and compared to what each trait provides, it turns out that in the grand scheme of things the +1 CL while using spell trigger/completion items is about the same as the average extra FCB. Coincidence? Perhaps. Overly huge benefit by my comparison? I think not.
Of course, I could be swayed by your run of the numbers, if you're willing to indulge it for me?
|
|
Without going through the large amount of responses, it seems pretty straight forward. With using spell trigger or spell completion items, they use +1CL.
For wands this means +1 CL of the wands itself, since they are not dependent on the wielder's level.
For scrolls, this means the same thing as wands, CL of the scroll +1. They are also not dependent on the reader.
Wondrous items that trigger spells, same as above, +1 to the CL of the item.
Staff items are the only variant, since they use the wielder's CL. so your CL+1.
It is not a useless trait, just totally equipment reliant. If you are out of items that use spells, then the trait is dormant. The long and short of it is that this trait make you bring out the best in items. Calculate what it would be cast like without this trait, then add 1 to whatever that is.
|
It doesn't say it makes items you use count as 1 caster level higher so I don't know where people are getting that interpretation from.
You can use those items as if you were one caster level higher. Why else would it then say, "(or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class)"? That dialog in the same sentence with the +1 CL of all those types of items makes no sense at all.
All spell trigger and spell completion activate as if they were created with a caster level of 1 higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class).
See? That doesn't make any sense at all when combined together.
As people have said your caster level doesn't set the caster level for scrolls or wands without certain prestige classes, archetypes or with staves. You can use it to get around a couple of Caster Level checks too, which isn't bad.
Your effectively getting a much reduced type of multiclassing which for some people is very appealing. Being able to activate wands and scrolls without having to dip is certainly going to be worth a few hit points or skill points.
I agree with everything enchanter Tim said in his post. I might elaborate more when I'm not posting from a phone but if you decide to try and use this trait in any way other than how Tim has suggested, I would recommend bringing it up with your gm before the session to ensure they share your interpretation. As a gm, I do not share your interpretation. A trait should not be better than a feat. Look up the feat cypher magic.
|
|
It is not my interpretation. I am not trying to push it on any GM. I am just trying to figure out how it is supposed to work since I am now stuck with it. I have long ago agreed that my original interpretation (same as Kazaan's first post) when I read it (not long after the book came out) was way too powerful.
I came to this forum and asked in a post very similar to this one. I really wish I could find that post to put in a link. At that time nearly every single post agreed with Shar Tahl and Darsol's first post. (I can't tell if Darksol has changed his mind now or not.)
I don't think anyone ever said it worked the way most of you are saying is so obvious now. As far as I can recall, this weekend is the very first I have ever heard that interpretation.