Shield Master TWF shield...

[karossii]

Shield Master states,

Shield Master (Combat) wrote:

Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

(emphasis mine.)

Now, the TWF feat chain (TWF, ITWF, GTWF) does not technically have an iterative attack like BAB does, but instead grants additional attacks with the off hand, at a penalty to hit.

TWF Feats:

Two Weapon Fighting (Combat) wrote:

You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.

Prerequisite: Dex 15.

Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.

Two Weapon Fighting, Improved (Combat) wrote:

You are skilled at fighting with two weapons.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.

Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.

Two Weapon Fighting, Greater (Combat) wrote:

You are incredibly skilled at fighting with two weapons at the same time.

Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty.

So if I read this right, RAW states that with GTWF and an off-hand shield (and with this feat, you're probably wielding a pair of them), you get 3 off-hand attacks at no penalty (i.e. your highest AB), plus your standard iterative main hand attacks with the reduced TWF penalty (unless it too is a shield, then no penalties)...

Is this correct by RAW? Is this RAI (hopefully someone 'official' may see this and answer, because otherwise RAI is impossible to know)?

[yeti1069]

What you SEEM to be asking, is whether you would have something like:

Main +16/Off +16 (TWF)
Main +11/Off +16 (Improved TWF)
Main +6/Off +16 (Greater TWF)
Main +1

If that's what you're asking, then no, you're incorrect.

The penalty being referred to is actually two penalties: the first is the -2 to all attacks you suffer in a round during which you employ TWF (the first two attacks above would be +14/+14, for example), and the second is the potential for an additional -2 if wielding a non-light off-hand weapon (such as a heavy shield).

So, your attack sequence with TWF without Shield Master would look like:
+14/+14 (TWF)
+9/+9 (ITWF)
+4/+4 (GTWF)
-1

And with Shield Mastery (assuming the shield is your off-hand weapon):
+14/+16
+9/+11
+4/+6
-1

It just removes the TWF penalty when attacking with a shield for your shield attacks. If you are wielding a large shield as your off-hand weapon, you'd get a further -2 penalty on your attacks, but Shield Master would remove the penalty for the shield attacks (your main hand attack bonus would drop by another 2).

[yeti1069]

At least that is how I interpret it, and how I've seen it interpreted. I'll admit that the wording for Shield Master could use some cleaning up to make that explicit. I would imagine that if the intent were for the feat to allow you to ignore the iterative attack penalties, it would instead be written to called out that you would now be attacking at your highest BAB. And that feat would be RIDICULOUSLY strong, since it essentially is granting you up to a +15 bonus to-hit, virtually ensuring that all of your shield attacks land. I think you'd see many more Shield/light off-hand weapon builds out there if this were the case.

[karossii]

yeti1069 wrote:

What you SEEM to be asking, is whether you would have something like:

Main +16/Off +16 (TWF)
Main +11/Off +16 (Improved TWF)
Main +6/Off +16 (Greater TWF)
Main +1

If that's what you're asking, then no, you're incorrect.

The penalty being referred to is actually two penalties: the first is the -2 to all attacks you suffer in a round during which you employ TWF (the first two attacks above would be +14/+14, for example), and the second is the potential for an additional -2 if wielding a non-light off-hand weapon (such as a heavy shield).

So, your attack sequence with TWF without Shield Master would look like:
+14/+14 (TWF)
+9/+9 (ITWF)
+4/+4 (GTWF)
-1

And with Shield Mastery (assuming the shield is your off-hand weapon):
+14/+16
+9/+11
+4/+6
-1

It just removes the TWF penalty when attacking with a shield for your shield attacks. If you are wielding a large shield as your off-hand weapon, you'd get a further -2 penalty on your attacks, but Shield Master would remove the penalty for the shield attacks (your main hand attack bonus would drop by another 2).

That is probably the intent of Shield Master. But that is not what shield master states it does. And I agree that is how it should work. (Not trying to make a cheese character, trying to point out something that is probably broken). Re-read the feat as it is written. You do not suffer any penalties...

[edit]As a clarification, as written (i.e. RAW), this feat is the most broken thing ever. Wield two shields as weapons, and you never suffer any penalties to your attack rolls from any source, period.

[ArmouredMonk13]

Then can I TWF with 2 shield strapped on and take no TWF penalties?

[SCPRedMage]

Just to troll...

What if your other weapon is another shield? :P

[StrangePackage]

Well, so long as it's not armor spikes, I don't see the problem.

[karossii]

Exactly my point - dual wielding shields is the character concept I was building when I stumbled upon this. And no, I do not intend to use it in its broken RAW interpretation. But, by a strict reading of RAW... as I said above; you will never suffer any penalties to attack rolls for any reason from any source, while dual wielding shields and possessing this feat.

[ArmouredMonk13]

This could make an awesome Armiger.

[SCPRedMage]

StrangePackage wrote:

Well, so long as it's not armor spikes, I don't see the problem.

What about shield spikes? :P

[Ilja]

EDIT: Double post :S

[Ilja]

Just for funzies, if this was actually how the feat was used, here's a dual-shield 6th level 20 pt buy ranger. Until 6th level they don't do TWF at all, but from 6th on it becomes meaningful (though it lacks improved two-weapon fighting yet). Race was just for because hey, it's TWO shields, what else could it be?

Charlie Shieldson:

Dwarf ranger 6
N Medium humanoid
Init +3; Senses Perception +10

AC 22, touch 12, flat-footed 20 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +3 shield)
hp 45 (6d10+12)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +4 (+2 vs spells)

Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 Heavy Shield/+1 Heavy Shield +12/+7/+12, 1d6+10/1d6+10/1d6+7 and free bull rush +15 after each hit.
Enlarged with ranger's focus: Shield/Shield +17/+12/+17 1d8+15/1d8+15/1d8+12 and free bull rush +21.

Special Attacks ranger's focus 2/day (+4 to attack and damage).

STATISTICS

Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 5

Base Atk +6; CMB +11 (+15 bull rush); CMD 18

Feats Endurance, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam (1st bonus), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shield Master (2nd bonus)

Languages Common, dwarven

SQ various ranger abilities, relentless (alternate racial)

Gear: +2 (+1) Heavy Shield, (+1) Heavy Shield, Belt of Giant Strength +2, +1 Breastplate, party arcanist has been given wand of enlarge person, misc stuff.

Hehe, that nova isn't fun to meet.

[SCPRedMage]

Shield spikes and the bashing enchantment will up that base damage to 2d6.

Yes, they stack, as evidenced by the scarred wanderer's +5 bashing spiked heavy shield doing 2d6 base damage.

[Orien45]

The problem with 2 shields is that your hands become useless for anythjng else. If you have a light shield you could carry a potion or something in that hand, but once you use it that's done; trying to dig in a pocket or pouch would be good for a laugh.

There is also the matter of donning two shields (unless you wear them at all times, however using the privvy could be an issue there). It takes a move action to don a shield, but that assumes you have a hand free to do so, if one arm is already strapped up you're most likely going to need help getting the second one on.

Then there are trip attacks (or anything else that knocks you down) - how do you stand back up?

Just some thoughts on life with 2 plates for arms.

[prototype00]

The main issue I have is that RAW it doesn't state (IIRC) anywhere in the core rulebook that the -5 for each iterative attack that you perform are "penalties", its just how iterative attacks work. So RAW, my problem is there.

Large shield in offhand and TWF are definitely penalties though, and those are straight out eliminated.

prototype00

[Talcrion]

Just to throw gas on the fire, it says don't suffer ANY penalties when attacking, CLEARLY this includes all spell debuffs as well. bwahahha, take that stupid bards casting Bane on me

[Kazaan]

Bo McCullough wrote:

The problem with 2 shields is that your hands become useless for anythjng else. If you have a light shield you could carry a potion or something in that hand, but once you use it that's done; trying to dig in a pocket or pouch would be good for a laugh.

There is also the matter of donning two shields (unless you wear them at all times, however using the privvy could be an issue there). It takes a move action to don a shield, but that assumes you have a hand free to do so, if one arm is already strapped up you're most likely going to need help getting the second one on.

Then there are trip attacks (or anything else that knocks you down) - how do you stand back up?

Just some thoughts on life with 2 plates for arms.

7 levels of Thunderstriker will cover that. Fight with a Heavy Shield + Buckler. You can switch between two-handing the heavy shield for 1.5x Str and TWF with heavy shield and buckler. Lvl 3 lets you ignore buckler penalty while two-handing a weapon and lvl 7 lets you shield bash with a buckler. Then, you have your buckler hand available for anything you need a hand for.

[Orien45]

Talcrion wrote:

Just to throw gas on the fire, it says don't suffer ANY penalties when attacking, CLEARLY this includes all spell debuffs as well. bwahahha, take that stupid bards casting Bane on me

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. ...

[prototype00]

*checks Pathfinder OGC* -> Shield, Heavy, 1 handed Martial weapon.

prototype00

[Orien45]

That doesn't prevent penalties from ability drain, etc.

[prototype00]

Sure, no one (I hope) is saying that. Penalties from ability drain apply directly to the ability in question, and not to attack rolls.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you were pointing out. I thought you were saying that shields weren't considered weapons.

prototype00

[Orien45]

No worries. I play a halfling with Deadly Aim and Throw Anything - I know that everything has weapon stats. :)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, I think Shield Master getting rid of TWF penalties and the penalty for having a 1H weapon in the offhand (such as another heavy shield) is fine and intended. You know, remove the TWF-based penalties.

I would never try to claim it negates power attack penalties, spell debuffs, shaken condition, etc... The "RAW" might be ambiguously worded, but that's pretty clearly not the intent...

[James Risner]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Well, I think Shield Master getting rid of TWF penalties and the penalty for having a 1H weapon in the offhand (such as another heavy shield) is fine and intended. You know, remove the TWF-based penalties.

I would never try to claim it negates power attack penalties, spell debuffs, shaken condition, etc... The "RAW" might be ambiguously worded, but that's pretty clearly not the intent...

I agree with this.

I also kind dislike the "let us read the rules in the awkward way possible" game.

[Corodix]

By raw you indeed don't take penalties on shield attacks with shield master, including the penalties from ITWF and GTWF.

So at bab 16 while fighting with 2 shields you'd have the following attacks:

Main +16/Off +16 (TWF)
Main +11/Off +16 (ITWF)
Main +6/Off +16 (GTWF)
Main +1

This of course also includes penalties from Power attack, Combat expertise and fighting defensively as they are penalties to your attack rolls. Interesting point by Talcrion that debuffs that give penalties to your attack rolls, like Bane, also don't affect your shield attack rolls. The raw is very clearly worded in that you do not suffer any penalties to attack rolls with the shield. I don't see how there can be any confusion there since it never goes into details on what kind of penalties it's talking about, it simply states any penalties on attack rolls. Not, any two weapon fighting penalties on attack rolls, just any penalties on attack rolls. any is any. The two weapon fighting part only comes in later in the when section, but it only states you need to be wielding another weapon, not that you have to also be fighting with the weapon. You could simply attack with only one shield in that turn and the feat would still make it so that you do not suffer any penalties to those attacks, even though you aren't two weapon fighting.

And that's all raw, of course it's not a problem in home games since the DM can just change how it works, but I assume it must work like thit in society play since they must follow the raw there, right?

Sounds like this really needs some errata/faq treatment. I knew about it working like this with the exception of buff spells also not working (and when I first learned of it I informed my DM about it in the hope that he'd houserule this feat so it wouldn't be this broken, and he did just that.) The raw of this feat is clearly broken in what it does and should seriously be limited to not taking certain penalties (like two weapon fighting related ones, which I assume is the actual intent of the feat) instead of not taking any penalties to attack rolls.