So I am looking at a Human Ranger(10) Rogue(6) character. Should I make my favored class rogue, and get a free rogue trick, or make it ranger and take either 10 HP or 10 skill points?
If you're a half elf, you could have both classes favored...
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Well, lemme put it this way, with 6 levels of Rogue you've probably already taken the only 3 Rogue Talents worth taking, ever.
humans can get both for a feat as well. really, it depends on how vital the trick is to your build, and in what order you take those levels.
put simply, whats better depends on what your trying to do, and how. at level 16, a feat could get you 16hp(toughness), but not the skill points, and not some of the trick options. the rogue has a lot of sub-optimal choices however.
whatever you want, is the short answer...
Is there a rogue talent you super want but can't manage to get by other means? Yes? Take that. No?
Do you lack enough INT for all the skills you want to take? Yes? Take that. No?
Take 10 hp.
Why Rogue levels?
What is the build?
What do you want the PC to do?
I don't know, the minor magic-major magic-dispelling strike chain is pretty nice. You're probably thinking finesse rogue, combat trick, and the trapfinding one right?
ninja trick pretty good too.
minor magic *awesome* if you want to go for Arcane Strike. -maybe not for a multiclasser though.
Dispelling Strike doesn't seem worth it for his capstone ability (since he wouldn't be able to get Advanced Talents until Rogue 10 at 20th).
It looks nice until you read the whole thing and realize it only ever targets the lowest level spell effect.
I mean, that's not BAD (dispelling that Mage Armor or whatever can be worthwhile), just not something I'd squander 10 HP and take 4 more Rogue levels for.
I am looking at a dual shield character. Sap Mastery, bashing shields, etc. can add up a bunch of nonlethal damage. I don't know which (if any) extra rogue trick I would take, but I am also unsure if I would need the skill points or hit points. I may be adding fighter and/or barbarian levels as well as the ranger and rogue. I am at the very beginning of developing this character... might post a build thread in a day or so when I have some more concrete decisions made.
I'd be wary of throwing any more multiclassing in there. Pathfinder is not kind to multiclassed character besides dipping (taking 1-3 levels in a class).
If I were spellcasting, I could see that as an issue... but as a melee type, what is the issue?
Lower BaB (and therefore to-hit) from the Rogue levels, poorly scaling class features (your Animal Companion is based off your Ranger level -3, meaning with your 6 Rogue levels at level 16 your AC is level 7. Not to mention Rage is of minor benefit with only a couple of levels), worse saves (Ranger gets Fort and Ref, but Rogue only gets Ref and Fighter/Barb only get Fort) and so on.
Fighter is always a good dip for Feats, but a Ranger already has Feats, without prerequisites needed (There's another one, delayed or unattainable Combat Style Feats).
And the Ranger DOES have spellcasting, and some of said spells are pretty useful.
Oh and Favored Enemy doesn't scale any further, though admittedly 10th level is quite god on FE already.
Why not just full Freebooter/Trapper Ranger?
You would do, all the Rogue things, but not be hindered, by being a Rogue.
He wants Sap Master, he says, which requires 3d6 Sneak Attack.
Though at the very least he could take Ninja. Ninja Tricks are all around better than Rogue Talents.
Also, why is it you want tons of non-lethal damage, out of curiosity?
Okay,
re: the animal companion - do not care (will be trading that feature away if I find an archetype I like, or selecting my companions instead otherwise).
re: Ranger spellcasting - I plan on using one or two low level spells from time to time, maybe. But not often, and not a focus of the build.
re: freebooter/trapper - as stated, I want sneak attack dice, and that is ALMOST the only reason for rogue levels. I *am* considering ninja, but some of the archetypes I am looking at require rogue.
re: favored enemy - this is one of the things I will miss having a few extra levels in; but not enough to worry about it. I can make up for the benefits by getting some more generalized bonuses which apply to all opponents via fighter features and feats, and/or barbarian features.
re: tons of nonlethal damage... he would still be viable in a lethal damage capacity, but borderline broken in non-lethal damage. doubling sneak attack dice, plus some static bonuses based on that increased number of dice, plus doubling all damage again at the end... it may only knock them out, but I could one-round many opponents (as long as they are succeptible to non-lethal). plus, mainly, flavor... same reason for dual shields [I realize I could go other routes for more damage which is lethal...]
Have you considered Vivisectionist?
Vivisectionist Alchemist is a good class from 1-20. It's still 3/4 BaB but you can buff yourself with Extracts and Mutagens and get some neat Discoveries.
I considered vivisectionist, but felt rogue (or ninja) would be a better fit... are there any other classes or archetypes which grant sneak attack?
Also, what are the best/easiest/most reliable ways to ensure a flat-footed foe? Greater Invisibility would work, but doesn't fit in the build (unless I take the major magic trick, but I hadn't planned on that many rogue levels). A scout rogue can charge, and at 8th can just move 10' to gain it... but I wasn't planning on taking that many rogue levels.
Sneak Attack is a rather unreliable source of damage.
What do you want from it?
Scout Rogue and a few levels in Lore Warden Fighter for the feats and some combat manoeuvre bonuses. I'll also throw in Bolas - ranged subdual damage = ranged sap albeit an exotic one.
karossii wrote:
Also, what are the best/easiest/most reliable ways to ensure a flat-footed foe? Greater Invisibility would work, but doesn't fit in the build
Actually, Greater Invisibility does not work. There are few ways to get an opponent flat-footed; flat-footed is not the same as denied dex bonus. Specifically, it's:
Flat-Footed wrote:
"At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. "
I've seen some nasty build with a halfling slinger rogue with sap master that could output some insane damage on the surprise round and/or first round of combat, but other than that it's a marginal feat and can be hard to build a powerful character around.
While it feels a bit rude to ask this since your questions are pretty specific, I must second blackbloodtrolls question: What do you want from the character?
It seems like you want something very specific, and whether it's specific in flavor or specific in mechanics matters. It's easier giving advice if we know what the goal is.
Sap master is basically only _good_ if you have a lot of sneak attack dice and can make sure to attack first in combat (ranged weapons are good, as is insane dex modifiers). If your goal is being a sneaky guy who fights with two shields it might be better to just drop sap master and look at other avenues for damage. If the goal is to utilize sap master specifically, you might want to drop the shields and get a sling, bola or similar and only take levels in sneak attack classes.
The specific goal is to effectively use sap master with two shields. It is more for flavor than optimization - but I am trying to optimize as much as possible within that goal.
I think I actually found the solution, and it seems perfectly fitted for this character. Enforcer (link) + Shatter Defenses (link). These two feats let me treat any enemy s flat footed as long as I keep him shaken and keep hitting him, and they feed off of each other.
So here are the feats I think I need and/or want from this build. Some will be rogue talents, some will be ranger weapon mastery feats, and some may be fighter bonus feats. The source and order of the feats depends on how I end up fleshing this out.
(focused study human bonus) skill focus: intimidate
weapon focus: shield
bludgeoner
dazzling display
shatter defenses
enforcer
two weapon fighting
improved two weapon fighting
greater two weapon fighting
shield master
sap adept
sap master
(focused study human bonus) skill focus: survival
eldritch heritage: orc
improved eldritch heritage
(focused study human bonus) skill focus: (perception?)
greater eldritch heritage
.
.
I did notice a huge loophole of sorts... the ninja trick 'rogue talent' disallows a ninja from taking a rogue talent which has the same name as a ninja trick. Makes sense.
Conversely, The rogue talent 'ninja trick' does not have this stipulation, and would seem to allow a rogue to take a duplicate (i.e. taking combat trick as a rogue talent, then taking ninja trick to get the ninja's combat trick). I am relying on the d20pfsrd for this, so it may be they have miskeyed something; am I wrong on this RAW loophole?
Yeah, you nailed it. Enforcer + Shatter Defenses. You could even take the Thug archetype for the rogue if you want to make that shaken more useful more often. I'm guessing you're going TWF with the Ranger levels, so you can skip the Dex requirements for the feats, and are going with a Str build. Intimidating Prowess is available as a rogue talent.
Nuclearsunburn wrote: Yeah, you nailed it. Enforcer + Shatter Defenses. You could even take the Thug archetype for the rogue if you want to make that shaken more useful more often. I'm guessing you're going TWF with the Ranger levels, so you can skip the Dex requirements for the feats, and are going with a Str build. Intimidating Prowess is available as a rogue talent. I am actually torn. Having the dex for the TWF tree will be a major pain, but getting shield mastery at 6th would be very nice. I will likely go with the TWF tree, though, as a 19 Dex will be tough to pull off, and while it has its general benefits to all characters, has no specific draw to this build outside of those feats.
Or you could consider half-elf arcane training, giving you all the spells on a list (say, summoner or sorcerer wizard), so you can use scrolls/wands as a 1st level character could.
This is a very very feat intensive path you're going, combining three feat chains and adding in eldritch heritage which means you're even more MAD.
If you're in any kind of challenging adventure and isn't an absolute master of tactics, I would advice you to reconsider, or at least drop the ranger levels in favor of fighter levels which will give you more feats and some AT/WT to make up for the penalties you'll be eating for non-full-BAB+TWF.
And I'd strongly advice dropping eldritch heritage and dumping your CHA.
And sorry, you cannot use ninja trick > rogue trick I think, because ninja trick actually lets you get the rogue trick and rogue trick lets you actually get the selected talent; and the rogue talent ability says "A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.".
If the Rogue Talent ninja trick had said it mimicked the effects of a rogue talent it might work, but it actually lets you select a rogue talent - and Rogue Talent doesn't let you select the same talent more than once.
Again, this is from d20pfsrd, so relying on their accuracy, but...
Rogue Talent, "Ninja Trick" states:
Ninja Trick (Ex)
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool.
Special: A rogue can pick this talent more than once.
Compare that to the Ninja Trick, "Rogue Talent" which is worded more conservatively:
Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.
Now, looking on the Ninja's trick list, "Combat Trick" states:
Combat Trick: A ninja who selects this trick gains a bonus combat feat.
So... it is not granting the rogue talent, but granting a bonus combat feat. There is also a rogue talent which grants a bonus feat and has the same name, but unlike the ninja trick "Rogue Talent", the rogue is not restricted from taking a ninja trick which has the same name as a rogue talent...
Oh, I didn't notice there's a Combat Trick on the ninja list; you mean going Rogue Talent>Ninja Trick(Combat Trick), I thought you meant Rogue Talent>(Ninja Trick(Rogue Talent(Combat Trick)) from the rogues list.
That should work RAW. Not sure it's RAI though, for what's that's worth to you.
Considering Rogue talents came out before the Ninja class did, it's very much not RAI.
I've actually done up a couple of dual-shield builds. Both rely heavily on the TWF chain, obviously, along with Imp. Shield Bash and its chain. One was done with a ranger, the other with a brawler fighter.
Rogue simply isn't going to work, my man. 3/4 BAB, no good bonuses to the build, and sneak attack has too many requisites for too few bonuses. Even if you grab the Sap Adept line--which sucks up your precious feats--you're just not getting enough back from the class.
Go Ranger. Forgo Dexterity, buff your Strength and Constitution. Maybe grab Guide so you don't have to worry about Favored Enemies. Enjoy being able to hit your enemies.
Serum wrote: Considering Rogue talents came out before the Ninja class did, it's very much not RAI. I sincerely doubt the rogue talent, "ninja trick" came out before the ninja class did. And seeing as they included the clause in the Ninja's "Rogue Talent", one would think they would have also included the same clause in the Rogue's "Ninja Trick".
I am not saying it is RAI, just a RAW loophole I found. And that your logic about the Rogue predating the ninja doesn't address the loophole in any way.
Loup Blanc wrote: I've actually done up a couple of dual-shield builds. Both rely heavily on the TWF chain, obviously, along with Imp. Shield Bash and its chain. One was done with a ranger, the other with a brawler fighter.
Rogue simply isn't going to work, my man. 3/4 BAB, no good bonuses to the build, and sneak attack has too many requisites for too few bonuses. Even if you grab the Sap Adept line--which sucks up your precious feats--you're just not getting enough back from the class.
Go Ranger. Forgo Dexterity, buff your Strength and Constitution. Maybe grab Guide so you don't have to worry about Favored Enemies. Enjoy being able to hit your enemies.
I know the concept itself isn't the most optimized way, but I *am* trying to optimize *within* the concept, so...
So, what do you want from Rogue?
Obviously they want sneak attack dice for Sap Master without having overtly magickal abilities like a Vivisectionist would.
Concept seems to be specifically "TWF with shields using Sap Master without being overly magical".
Okay, what do you want from Sap Master?
Your build is coming together too late I think.
I would bite the bullet on dex and use fighter/rogue to put your feats together ASAP. Taking ranger to 6 for shield master saves you BAB, but it's not an absolutely critical feat in the short term and you want all of the prerequisites. If you're not saving a feat with ranger levels you'd do better with fighter.
Not counting endurance, which you wouldn't normally spend a feat on, ranger 10 gets 3 bonus feats. Fighter 10 gets 6 and since there are no bad prerequisites in the shield offense chain they're pretty much just as good in the long run. Early shield master is not worth it with all the other stuff the build needs just to function as envisioned. Fighter 3 gets as many feats leaving you more room for rogue. You want just enough fighter to compensate for the rogue's poor accuracy because your concept is about dual shield sneak attack, which means maximizing rogue. You also want the weaponmaster archetype for early weapon training because some of your rogue stuff doesn't work in medium or heavy armor so armor training is a waste.
Fighter 1: shield bash, TWF, weapon finesse You have a shield bash build using dex to hit. Damage is weak, but at level 1 that's okay.
Rogue 1-2: weapon training (light shield), dazzling display You're not great at intimidate, but you can do it. Sneak attack helps your damage.
Rogue 3-4: strong impression, bludgeoner Strong impression lets you dump charisma. If you manage 14 strength with 7 charisma it's better than skill focus, and skill focus isn't available as a rogue talent.
Rogue 5-6: combat trick (sap master), enforcer You're doing nonlethal damage and intimidating now.
Fighter 2: shatter defenses And your concept is complete. All that's left is picking up the rest of the shield offense chain. You want one more fighter level so you can use gloves of dueling, but after that you can go pure rogue as long as you're hitting stuff.
8 levels is a long time to wait for a concept to come together, but it's better than waiting 16. Unless you're starting the game at 16 of course.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Okay, what do you want from Sap Master? I think it is a "mechanical flavor" choice - they want to see what they can do with it in this circumstance. They've been pretty explicit about wanting to use Sap Master specifically, so I don't think there's much use arguing the point.
If someone says the want to become awesome at flaming sphere, pointing out that it's not a strong spell is fine once - if they insist, it's more useful to aid them in making it suck as little as possible.
(okay flaming sphere is a pretty decent spell in some circumstances but you get my point).
I'm not arguing, I'm asking.
Asking why, is not saying no.
To meet a satisfying end goal, one should have an idea what satisfies.
The basic desire here is to do a metric crap ton of non lethal damage, while wielding a pair of shields. And to be at least marginally effective at lethal damage when required.
The character is a tribal (probably shoanti) background, will probably be naked or in hide aside from the shields. He will be more or less averse to arcane magic, though not a witch-hunter or anything of the sort. Not wanting him to be a major divine magic user either, though he wouldn't have issues with others using it around him as he might with arcane. A few ranger spells could even be flavored as him communing with his ancestral spirits or some such (and I have considered a spirit ranger) - I am thinking of using lead blades to boost the effective size of the shields... but not for every encounter ever.
As to fighter over ranger; I will probably go the TWF ranger and save myself the dex prerequisites. I would like having one or two (actually three in Ranger 10) favored enemies. I could not care much less about nature's bond or favored terrains, however. A FEW ranger spells would be nice, as I mentioned the Lead Blades. I wanted to go Weapon and Shield for the Shield Mastery early and without prereqs, but that is only saving me a single prereq feat and getting me the feat 5 levels early; as you said it really isn't worth the overall cost. But saving me from 5 to 9 points of DEX would be awesome.
I would still toss in a level or three of fighter; probably brawler, to get close combatant (+1 attack, +3 damage with shields)... and that leaves a free level (10 ranger, 6 rogue, 3 fighter thus far).
I really only need 5 levels of rogue; but the 6th gains me a third talent, which could be an extra feat, and assuming I put my human favored class benefit there, a fourth talent which could be just about anything. I suppose I could put the last level as rogue as well, four a 4th (8 total) die of sneak attack.
I suppose I should actually build this out in its various forms, and see which does what and how, and decide the variation I like best. I am not completely against a pure fighter/rogue...
Oh, and as to the orc eldritch heritage; it is not a requirement, but gaining a +9 morale bonus to attacks, damage rolls, and will saves for 4 to 5 rounds a day (and/or granting the bonus to an ally for some of those rounds), gaining a permanent +6 to strength, and 18 minutes a day of increasing to large size, with another +6 to strength, a +4 to con, and a -2 to dex along with +4 natural armor, all for the cost of 4 feats (which I am using focused study to get an extra 2 free skill focus feats out of the deal, since I have to spend a feat on a skill focus anyway - so not quite a full 4 feat entry cost)... it seems worth it to me. I may find it is not worth it, or simply can't fit it in the build...
[edit] Fixed a spelling error. OMG, I had put ROUGE... not playing a makeup wearing character!!!
Okay, so leaving out the rogue levels and possible double combat trick, etc.; a ranger 10/fighter 3 gains 5 combat feats for free, 3 of which ignore prerequisites. A Fighter 13 gains 7 combat feats for free, but must meet all prerequisites. That is only a 2 feat bump; and could cost me a lot for prerequisites.
Shield Master requires 3 feat prerequisites, of which I was only planning on taking 2; so that costs me a feat. Now fighter is only up one feat. That is about the only difference if I go weapon and shield.
GTWF requires 19 Dex, where I only need/plan for 10-14 otherwise (depending on what is left over)... so fighter is still up 2 feats, but down quite a lot of attribute points (would probably start it at 16 and spend 4/8/12 bumps on it; but that costs 5 initial stat points and 3 level bumps that could all be in Str, Con, or Cha). This would be where Ranger really outshines Fighter.
On the other hand, my list of desired feats is a total of 17, 14 combat feats (one less of each if going Weapon & Shield Ranger).
I can get 2 or 3 from Rogue bonuses (let's go with 2 now, to be conservative), 3 from ranger levels and 2 from fighter levels; that leaves 10 from leveling, which means the build isn't fully realized until level 17 (with high dex requirements) or 19 (going TWF ranger).
With the extra feats from fighter levels instead of ranger, it would come fully online at 14. But then there is the issue that a couple of those feats have prereqs that won't be met until 16th or 17th... so I suppose I can't just look at the big picture.
So as I said before, I guess I just need to make both builds (or, all three), level by level, and see which works best for my goals. :/
The Ranger can ignore prereqs on his Combat Style Feats.
So if you take Two-Weapon Style you can get TWF/Improved/Greater for free by 10th level (no Dex required), or if you take Sword and Shield you can get Shield Master by 6th with none of the prereqs.
Right. And the one saves me a single feat (wasn't planning on grabbing shield bash), and a 5 level early entry to no penalties for TWF with 2 shields...the other saves me 5 to 9 points of DEX, and a 1 level early entry to GTWF.
Both delay my entry to rogue; if I went straight fighter/rogue I would take rogue levels earlier...
Actually, the 10th level feat is not all that stellar if I go Weapon & Shield style; I could go 6th ranger/6th rogue, then move on to fighter levels...or ranger 6 then a few levels of fighter, then rogue... etc. That might be the best bet. 8 levels of fighter (5 feats), 6 levels of ranger (2 feats), and 6 levels of rogue (2 {or 3} rogue talents for feats) is 10 (or 11) free combat feats, plus the normal level based feats... But that still leaves me needing 19 Dex.
Would an item that grants bonus dex qualify me for selecting a feat? And whether or not it does, would losing the dex cost me the benefit of the feat (what if I get the feat without the Dex prereq, through ranger levels?)
Another possible loophole I found; again not arguing it isn't cheesy, just noticed it.
Shield Master removes all penalties for fighting with a shield in TWF.
The off hand attacks are not made on an iterative BAB, technically; instead the feats grant a penalty which is identical to iterative BAB.
Thus, a shield master TWFer gains 4 attacks at full BAB, plus his iterative attacks with his main hand.
Is this correct, RAW?
Yeah that's a pretty big loophole.
I was under the impression that Shield Master removed all two-weapon fighting penalties, but no other type of penalty.
That's at least, how it should work.
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