What spells end when the caster dies?


Rules Questions


Or becomes unconscious?

Obviously some spells that require concentration would, but what about others with round or minute/level durations?

For example which of those would end?
a) Summon Monster
b) Grease
c) Haste

None? All?


Should be none, I think.

Concentration spells yeah, obviously, but ones with durations wouldn't end until their time was up, and permanent ones wouldn't end at all.


Spells active on the caster that do not affect objects as well.


Drachasor wrote:
Spells active on the caster that do not affect objects as well.

I don't think that this type of spells end. Once you cast, if they aren't concentration spells, there's no sense to end them.


Blackstorm wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
Spells active on the caster that do not affect objects as well.
I don't think that this type of spells end. Once you cast, if they aren't concentration spells, there's no sense to end them.

Spells end if their target is no longer valid, or at least the spells cease to function.


It's not so much about "spells on the caster" but more about "Spells on his allies" or "Spells on the enemies"


Drachasor wrote:
Spells end if their target is no longer valid, or at least the spells cease to function.

Do you happen to recall if this is in the rules, or is just your common sense? 'cause Whether or not spells end when their target is no longer a valid target, is a bit of a conundrum with significant implications.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Spells do not end when the caster dies or goes unconcious, because they aren't tied to the caster's life force. Their effects simply go on until their durations run out. Spells that require conscious direction will no longer receive such direction. i.e. a spiritual hammer that downs it's target won't get switched to a new one.

Liberty's Edge

VRMH wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
Spells end if their target is no longer valid, or at least the spells cease to function.
Do you happen to recall if this is in the rules, or is just your common sense? 'cause Whether or not spells end when their target is no longer a valid target, is a bit of a conundrum with significant implications.

No, it isn't listed in the rules. Spells only end when the duration ends, which is generally defined one of three ways: 1)A set number of rounds/minutes/hours; 2)Instantaneously, eg a fireball explodes; 3) the caster stops concentrating on a spell. There is nothing listed about a spell ending if the target changes type...and nowhere do the rules say that a corpse stops being a creature.

'd20PFSRD" wrote:

If the spell affects creatures directly, the result travels with the subjects for the spell's duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. The effect might move or remain still. Such an effect can be destroyed prior to when its duration ends. If the spell affects an area, then the spell stays with that area for its duration.

Creatures become subject to the spell when they enter the area and are no longer subject to it when they leave.

(Emphasis mine.)

So, since the rules don't tell us a corpse is no longer a creature, if a spell's target dies before the spell's duration ends (or if the target is somehow transmuted into a construct or undead), the spell continues. The ONLY exception I can see to this rule MIGHT be spells that target LIVING creatures. Because a corpse (construct, undead) is specifically NOT living, the spell no longer has a target/subject.

EDIT: BUT, the rules do NOT say that a spell's target must remain valid AFTER the spell is cast...only that the target must be valid to be targeted.


ALL the spell text remains relevant throughout the duration of a spell unless mentioned otherwise (such as range with summoned monsters).

The target isn't any different than the area, range, descriptors, or duration. It matters as long as the duration lasts, because a creature is a target of the effect throughout. As the text you quoted indicates, once you die that effect you have with you, if it doesn't affect objects, is no longer valid and cases.

A corpse is an object by the way. It possesses no wisdom or charisma score anymore, and hence is an object by definition.

This works the other way too. Hardening cast before Animate Objects does not increase the hardness or hitpoints of what you animate. It ceases to have an effect once the objects become creatures.

Hmm, that said, I grant the rules are not as clear on this as I remember. I know this was made clear in 3.5 in numerous places. That said, PF has changed the meaning of some rules with the same text so it is a bit up in the air now that I look at it closely.

Liberty's Edge

Drachasor wrote:

A corpse is an object by the way. It possesses no wisdom or charisma score anymore, and hence is an object by definition.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but where in RAW are we told a corpse has no wisdom or charisma? In PF, "Dead" is a condition, just like "blind", "deaf", "shaken", etc. As such, it's covered in the "Conditions" section of the PFSRD.

"d20PSRD wrote:

Dead

The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

When something is "Dead", none of its ability scores change. We're also not told that a creature becomes an object when it gains the dead condition. The last WotC issued D&D 3.5 FAQ said corpses are objects...the PFSRD doesn't.

Drachasor wrote:


Drachasor wrote:
ALL the spell text remains relevant throughout the duration of a spell unless mentioned otherwise (such as range with summoned monsters).

The target isn't any different than the area, range, descriptors, or duration. It matters as long as the duration lasts, because a creature is a target of the effect throughout. As the text you quoted indicates, once you die that effect you have with you, if it doesn't affect objects, is no longer valid and cases.

Again, where is this written? RAW gives us the limits on casting the spell, not what applies after the spell is cast. Except in the case of summoned creatures, I'm unaware of any rule that tells us if the casting conditions change, the spell ceases to function as cast. Therefore, the summoned creature rule is an outlying case rather than the norm.


Corpses don't have thoughts or a sense of identity, nor can the notice things happening around them. They ARE objects. The rules don't have to explicitly state it, just like they don't state all rocks are objects. It is implied by its state of being. What you are arguing regarding bodies is the same silliness that says they can still take actions -- well you can't, because you are DEAD. Being dead means your corpse can't do that or do any of the other things creatures do. Why? Because it is just a body; it has no anima.

As for the spell descriptions, there's actually nothing that says any part of them ceases to be relevant after it is cast (beyond the obvious like Casting Time). There's no reason to think the bit about valid targets no longer matters after you cast it, but I grant this sort of thing is not entirely clear in RAW. The fact it goes out of the way to say when those limits no longer apply to a spell after it is cast indicates they DO normally apply after casting.


Quote:
As the text you quoted indicates, once you die that effect you have with you, if it doesn't affect objects, is no longer valid and cases.

How? I don't see anything in the text he quoted about a target ceasing to be a valid target.


I dont think any spells other than those requring concentration end when the caster is dead.

In some cases i personally rule though that they become ineffectual, if it requires the casters conscious influence to do anything. Ther spell is still there, it just doesnt do anything anymore. For example dominate person will not do anything anymore if the dominated person doesnt have some sort of order that is still in effect, while the dominating creature is dead.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Drachasor wrote:

Corpses don't have thoughts or a sense of identity, nor can the notice things happening around them. They ARE objects. The rules don't have to explicitly state it, just like they don't state all rocks are objects. It is implied by its state of being. What you are arguing regarding bodies is the same silliness that says they can still take actions -- well you can't, because you are DEAD. Being dead means your corpse can't do that or do any of the other things creatures do. Why? Because it is just a body; it has no anima.

I used to laugh at the entries in Steve Jackson's Murphy Rules compendium on the games that actually had rules text "A dead character can perform no actions on it's turn." Now I see why some folks had to write those in.


Unless the spell says it ends when the caster dies, it doesn't. As Threeshades says, though, it may not be doing much of anything for the rest of its duration.


Drachasor wrote:
This works the other way too. Hardening cast before Animate Objects does not increase the hardness or hitpoints of what you animate. It ceases to have an effect once the objects become creatures.

But that's explicitally written in the text (The hardening spell does not in any way affect resistance to other forms of transformation). A magic armor, instead, doesn't say anything about that.

Quote:
Hmm, that said, I grant the rules are not as clear on this as I remember. I know this was made clear in 3.5 in numerous places. That said, PF has changed the meaning of some rules with the same text so it is a bit up in the air now that I look at it closely.

In 3.5 there's a FAQ that say that the target legality check is made only at the time of casting. I don't see why it should be different in pathfinder, the spell don't check every single moment. When would be the end of the effect? Concentration spells ends immediately when the spellcaster dies, while duration spells does end in what spawn of time?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Drachasor wrote:
A corpse is an object by the way.

Actually, a corpse is a "dead creature" or else Raise Dead and Resurrection would not work on it. They both say "Target: dead creature touched." There is nothing there about an object, so you are incorrect when you say "a corpse is an object."

So, all spells on the dead creature will just run out their duration once dead as will spells that were cast by the now dead creature. There is no rule saying they end, so they should continue until their duration is up by the rules that we do have.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks, Hendelbolaf. That's exactly what I was trying to say, but apparently couldn't say it that concisely... A corpse is a dead creature, or, to put it differently, a corpse is a creature with the dead condition.


This is an important distinction to make.

Although most people don't think about it, if a creature becomes an object at death, and becoming an object invalidates Target: Creature effects, then a creature that dies and is brought back to life via breath of life would have to peel off every spell effect mid-battle. Not only is that a severe disadvantage, but it is also ruinous to the flow of combat; I can speak from experience, since I've run in games where the big battles started with buffing, breaking down the door, and everybody getting hit with a greater dispel magic. The game slowed to a crawl while we adjusted our numbers again.

On the other hand, if a dead creature were an object but changing states didn't invalidate a spell effect, a different problem would arise. A creature could die, receive all sorts of crazy Target: Object spell effects that are not intended to be used by creatures, then be returned to life. I wonder how many spells are instantaneous or permanent when cast on objects ("If the target's Hardness increases by 5, do I count as currently having a Hardness of 0?"). I wonder how many spells are available at lower levels for objects than for creatures.

A minor exploit is that certainly people would start trying to cast mending on corpses until they're fully repaired, and start arguments with their GMs that dead characters would be at full hit points after being raised. Free healing ... ! Sort of.

So whether spells are invalidated or not, the interpretation that you change states will cause problems.

I'm very interested in hearing some oppositional arguments, though. What sort of headaches could be caused by dead creatures not being considered objects? It occurs to me that lots of spells have "Target: Creature" without specifying that a creature has to be alive. Perhaps by RAW, you could use detect thoughts against a dead creature, with strange effect. Perhaps there's worse out there.


Based on the fact that the FAQ for Cleave states that the condition must be met only at the time of the trigger, I think spells might be the same, indicating the target must be valid when the spell is cast, but not so much afterwards.

Now, that said, even though the spell doesn't end, the effect might no longer be useful. For instance, if you cast fly on yourself, then get turned to stone, you can't fly. But if you get turned back to flesh before fly ends, then you could fly again.

That of course is just my interpretation, which I no longer trust in this game as I cannot find a constant logic to any subsytem of rules.


Looking over the rules and the 3.5 FAQ have made me realize I must have picked up an error in my understanding of the rules somewhere. It seems like becoming an invalid target does not stop a spell from working. My apologies.....however...

Hendelbolaf wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
A corpse is an object by the way.

Actually, a corpse is a "dead creature" or else Raise Dead and Resurrection would not work on it. They both say "Target: dead creature touched." There is nothing there about an object, so you are incorrect when you say "a corpse is an object."

So, all spells on the dead creature will just run out their duration once dead as will spells that were cast by the now dead creature. There is no rule saying they end, so they should continue until their duration is up by the rules that we do have.

A demolished building is not a building anymore, nor is a dead creature still a creature. It's dead, it's a corpse, it's an object. A dead creature, like a demolished building, is simply a particular type of object.

And yeah, this does mean that Breath of Life technically doesn't work by RAW. It's an odd spell in a lot of ways anyhow, since viewing things as still creatures means you can reduce them to infinite negative hit points and they'll NEVER not be a body.


Really? This debate has broken down so far that you can prove by RAW that you can't cast spells on dead bodies that are meant to be cast on dead bodies?

Really? You are going to try to say that a creature that is technically dead for less than six seconds is no longer a creature?

Technically dead in this game just means that the body is unable to stabilize and come back to life on its own. This is where CPR, mouth to mouth or defibrillation would all come into play with modern medicine. All of these methods, by the way, are taught to kids in high school. Note that the heal skill could not bring any of these people back. It only works on people that have a chance to stabilize own their own (less negative HP than their Con).

It does not mean that every living cell is no longer viable. It does not mean they have decomposed. It does not mean that their DNA is shriveled and useless. Their organs are not mush and they may not even suffer from rigor mortis or lividity yet.

Because of all of these things that are so complicated, in 2013, as a professionally trained EMT-B, I am only allowed to declare someone dead based on four signs, just four. Other than that, I have to treat them as if I can bring them back. That is because, by law, they are not only a creature, they are a person with a chance to live.

A dead person, in the game, counts as what ever it needs to count as for spells and effects targeted at dead people, no matter what the target line in the description calls it.


The only spell that's problematic is Breath of Life. Interpreting dead bodies as still being creatures gives you a whole host of problems that begin with negative hit points and end with the fact they have the properties of objects. There's a whole mess there because the two things operate under different rules in a number of ways without a smooth transition from one to the other besides using Death.

If one were to put CPR or the like into the game, then it would make sense to have them work on recently deceased creatures. Raise Dead takes a special sort of object (dead creature) and turns it into a creature again. CPR would do the same.

I would also note that a Tree is an object. Living things can be objects, as can things that are partly alive.

Overall spells and effects to take into account this difference. One spell that is somewhat incoherent when you think about it is a pretty good record overall.


Another thought about it. Rules states:

Quote:


Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing

Now, let's take Blood Rage spell: lte's say that the group has a wizards, a cleric, a rogue and a fighter. Lets say that the wiz has failed his save vs the slumber hex of an opponent witch. Now, it's the cleric turn, he cast Blood Rage on all of his ally. The wiz is automatically willing as he's unconscious. the rogue then wak up the wiz. But now the wiz is not automatically willing, and he don't wish to have this spell cast on this. So the spell ends for him? I think nobody say that. So it appear that the legal target check is made only at the time of casting. If you don't like my initial asset, let's take the fighter: at start he accept the spell because he want to do more damage, but later on it's worried about his too low AC, and don't want the spell effect anymore. the effect doesn't end, I suppose you're all agree. But the target is unwilling now. So, if a spell always check for legality of target, when he don't want the effect anymore, the spell should end on him. But that's not the case. This is, for me at least, to say that the legality check is made only once at the time of casting. So a dead pc that is raised, still mantain, prevent the duration is not expired, any spell he has previously casted on him.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Blackstorm, I agree that the option to accept or decline a harmless spell is made once at the time of casting.

In your example, the wizard would just be out of luck as he was unconscious at the time of casting. The fighter accepted it and does not have the option to now drop it as he does not want it anymore.

Your point is valid, if a creature is a legal target of a spell when cast, then the spell will run its duration unless something happens to alter the spell in some way. So dead creatures (whether they are an object, a dead creature, a corpse, a creature, or a creature formerly known as a living creature), still keep any spell effects on them going until the durations expire or they are dispelled from some other means.

Liberty's Edge

Drachasor wrote:

ALL the spell text remains relevant throughout the duration of a spell unless mentioned otherwise (such as range with summoned monsters).

The target isn't any different than the area, range, descriptors, or duration. It matters as long as the duration lasts, because a creature is a target of the effect throughout. As the text you quoted indicates, once you die that effect you have with you, if it doesn't affect objects, is no longer valid and cases.

The range in the summoning spells is the range at which you summon the creature. If has 0 influence on how far the creature can move after it has been summoned.

Let's test the limits of your interpretation of the rules.

Haste: "Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart." So the targets can move more than 30' from the furthest character influenced by the spell or they lose the spell benefit? Who will lose it if the distance between two targets become larger than 30'?

slow: "Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart." Even better. If I move more than 30' from another affected character I dispel the spell from one of us?

align weapon: "This spell has no effect on a weapon that already has an alignment." You have given an alignment to the weapon, so it become an invalid target. It is a self dispelling spell?

Those are a few example I find perusing the spells in the CRB, but I have no doubt that there are plenty of other examples.
I think you are wrong.


If you had bothered to read the whole thread, you'd realize I had retracted my statement, Rossi.

Liberty's Edge

Drachasor wrote:
If you had bothered to read the whole thread, you'd realize I had retracted my statement, Rossi.

Yes, I have seen that, after making my post. But I still decided to let it be, as your statement was so wrong that a simple "oops, sorry" was insufficient. Especially when it is "I was wrong ... however".

Better to explain what were the consequences of that way of thinking.


Fair enough.

The "however" was on a completely different topic though, for what it is worth.

Scarab Sages

Note that being a willing target doesn't mean that the wizard cannot roll a will save to resist the spell. Being a willing target allows you to target the wizard. He may still choose to resist the spell, and roll a will save against it.


It's not RAW, but I would think if a GM wanted some spells to end on death, they could say that all spells that are dismissible end on death— Unless it was permanencied I guess.

For reference, a list of such spells from level 0 to 3:

Spoiler:

Breeze
Summon Instrument
Dancing Lights
Root
Ghost Sound
Haunted Fey Aspect
Penumbra
Lullaby
Detect Magic
Magic Aura
Mask Dweomer
Crafter's Curse
Crafter's Fortune
Mage Armor
Pass without Trace
Longstrider
Negate Aroma
Cloak of Shade
Lose the Trail
Tireless Pursuit
Call Animal
Dancing Lantern
Protection from Chaos
Protection from Good
Protection from Law
Jump
Enlarge Person
Reduce Person
Grease
Hold Portal
Expeditious Retreat
Entropic Shield
Shield
Produce Flame
Obscuring Mist
Ventriloquism
Faerie Fire
Entangle
Protection from Evil
Hibernate
Keen Senses
Challenge Evil
Lead Blades
Stone Fist
Innocence
Gravity Bow
Rally Point
Shock Shield
Summon Monster I
Summon Nature's Ally I
Bowstaff
Summon Minor Monster
Summon Minor Ally
Vanish
Hide from Animals
Hide from Undead
Disguise Self
Tracking Mark
Invigorate
Veil Of Heaven
Veil of Positive Energy
Alarm
Mount
Hypnotism
Identify
Detect Secret Doors
Detect Undead
Detect Charm
Detect Chaos
Detect Evil
Detect Good
Detect Law
Detect Snares and Pits
Detect Animals or Plants
Detect Aberration
Mask Dweomer, Communal
Shield Other
Rope Trick
Reduce Animal
Tree Shape
Trail of the Rose
Skinsend
Web Shelter
Cushioning Bands
Blur
Darkness
Alter Self
Invisibility
Levitate
Flame Blade
Spectral Hand
Protection from Good, Communal
Protection from Law, Communal
Protection from Chaos, Communal
Protection from Evil, Communal
Summon Eidolon
Aram Zey's Focus
Animal Aspect
Instant Armor
Haunting Mists
Eagle Eye
Corpse Lanterns
Savage Maw
Blessing Of Luck And Resolve
Light Lance
Reloading Hands
Summon Monster II
Summon Nature's Ally II
Silence
Spiritual Weapon
Hold Animal
Blood Blaze
Shared Sacrifice
Elemental Touch
Tactical Acumen
Summon Cacodaemon
Fiery Shuriken
Allegro
Shadow Anchor
Saddle Surge
See Invisibility
Web
Disguise Other
Ghostly Disguise
Bullet Shield
Slipstream
Certain Grip
Seducer's Eyes
Whispering Lore
Follow Aura
Hidden Speech
Feast of Ashes
Mount, Communal
Imbue With Elemental Might
Obscure Object
Boiling Blood
Detect Thoughts
Calm Emotions
Phantom Trap
Blindness-Deafness
Steal Voice
Sentry Skull
Glide
Gilded Whispers
Absorbing Touch
Cup of Dust
Guiding Star
Summon Totem Creature
Sculpt Sound
Phantom Steed
Spike Growth
Fins To Feet
Tireless Pursuers
Phantom Driver
Invisibility Purge
Beast Shape I
Arcane Sight
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Invisibility Sphere
Ablative Sphere
Twine Double
Blood Scent
Witness
Monstrous Physique I
Undead Anatomy I
Eruptive Pustules
Ki Leech
Vision of Hell
Fearsome Duplicate
Night of Blades
Displacement
Blink
Summon Monster III
Summon Nature's Ally III
Summon Ancestral Guardian
Hold Person
Prehensile Pilfer
Serren's Armor Lock
Pain Strike
Elemental Aura
Call the Void
Chain of Perdition
Twilight Knife
Distracting Cacophony
Shifting Sand
Exquisite Accompaniment
Daylight
Water Walk
Glibness
Deeper Darkness
Sacred Bond
Invigorate, Mass
Lily Pad Stride
Tiny Hut
Hide Campsite
Campfire Wall
Gaseous Form
Ancestral Regression
Rage
Nixie's Lure
Loathsome Veil
Illusory Script
Rune of Warding
Explosive Runes
Glyph of Warding
Lover's Vengeance


Magicdealer wrote:
Note that being a willing target doesn't mean that the wizard cannot roll a will save to resist the spell. Being a willing target allows you to target the wizard. He may still choose to resist the spell, and roll a will save against it.

True, but that's not relevant. Let's simply assume that the target wiz fails it's save. When he get conscious, he is no more willing, so it doesn't change. I'd picked the first spell I found to fit my reasoning. However, it's a good thing to point out (even if I think it's a bit ridicolous: if you are willing, tipically you don't want to make saves. Although maybe it's made just in the case someone become willing against his will, if you pass me the wordplay :))

Liberty's Edge

It is relevant when something say "I am casting Cure moderate wounds on you." "Ok" and then he cast bestow curse. Accepting a spell don't forego the save if it is a harmful spell.


Diego Rossi wrote:

It is relevant when something say "I am casting Cure moderate wounds on you." "Ok" and then he cast bestow curse. Accepting a spell don't forego the save if it is a harmful spell.

It's not relevant for my example. You described a situation that happened in my first playing group. But for my example the save is not relevant. The point is that if you are unconscious you're willing, and when you wake up you're no more automatically willing.

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