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So in an effort to have more productive discussions over testable things, I present a discussion of the Fighter Crossbowman Archetype.
The Hypothesis: This archetype is substantially weaker than other ranged fighter options, even when considering possible synergies.
So first, we need a baseline of what expectations for what an archer should be able to do, and then we need to see how good a crossbowman we can make.
Design Manager
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Hey Ciretose!
I'm interested to see what comes of this thread. Given the Crossbowman reliance on Ready Actions to be able add Dex to damage, my idea for this archetype was to take the largest base damage Crossbow I could come up with, the Double Crossbow, and try to stack as many static modifiers and additional damage dice as possible onto the one shot possible a round. I've since realized the feats need to be re-ordered a bit, but I came up with something looking like this:
Crossbowman
STR 10 DEX 19 (+2 Human, +1 level) CON 10 INT 18(+2 level) WIS 10 CHA 10
1st: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload
2nd:Rapid Shot
3rd:Crossbow Mastery
4th:Exotic Weapon Proficiency Double Crossbow
(Master of Many Styles) 5th: Kirin Style, Kirin Strike
6th: Vital Strike
7th:Weapon Focus (Double Crossbow)
8th: Weapon Specialization (Double Crossbow)
9th: Devastating Strike
10th: Quickdraw
11th: Improved Vital Strike
12th:Greater Weapon Specialization (Double Crossbow)
That'll give you a base damage of 6d8 + 5 (DEX) + 8(Double INT) + 4(Greater Weapon Specialization) + 8 (Devastating Strike) + 4 (Crossbow Expert), or 77 max damage before crit, 35 minimum damage, 53 average damage. All of that before stat boosting items and weapon enhancements. You'll also have sick skills thanks to the boosted INT and being human.
I will tell you, in actual gameplay, being reduced to a single attack per round with a ranged character, regardless of how powerful the attack, was pretty terrible.
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And that is the reason for the test. I'm watching the baby, so I'll have to post later, but I want to see what we can do with the Archetype, and perhaps expand it to the crossbow in general.
The goal should not be to exceed the bow, but to see how competitive it can get, and what pluses and minuses exist.
It is a little more challenging with the Crossbowman, considering the main advantage (being a simple weapon) is negated. But I'm curious what the community can come up with.
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Crossbow mastery gives you effectively point blank mastery (no AoO),No it does not. Reloading no longer provokes, you still provokes when firing. You need crossbow mastery PLUS point blank master for no AoO (compare to the archer only needing point blankmaster).
I made the same mistake. I think it was a house rule we used once (no one uses crossbows in the games I've played in years other than as a back-up ranged weapon)
Well, depending on how you understand stacking bonuses, take a look at improved critical, bracers of falcon's... Eye, and thundering. Using those, I think I was able to match an Archer's output at level 9. Although I believe the Archer didn't have the gloves off the duelist.
Still, pretty amusing.
Just because I like building characters.
Male Half-Elf Ranger 10
NG Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
Init +8; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +17, Will +12; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +3) +20/+15 (1d8+4/19-20/x3) and
. . +2 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +3) +21/+16 (1d8+6/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (aberrations +2, evil outsiders +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 7):
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (3/day) Longstrider, Resist Energy (x2)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +16; CMD 29
Feats Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim -3/+6, Endurance, Manyshot, Point Blank Master (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Traits Elven Reflexes, Indomitable Faith
Skills Bluff -2 (+0 vs. aberrations, +0 vs. evil outsiders, +4 vs. undead), Climb +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13 (+15 vs. aberrations, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +13 (+15 vs. aberrations, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead), Perception +20 (+22 vs. aberrations, +22 vs. evil outsiders, +26 vs. undead, +22 while in forest terrain, +24 while in underground terrain), Sense Motive +2 (+4 vs. aberrations, +4 vs. evil outsiders, +8 vs. undead), Spellcraft +13, Stealth +19 (+21 while in forest terrain, +23 while in underground terrain), Survival +13 (+15 vs. aberrations, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead, +15 while in forest terrain, +17 while in underground terrain, +18 to track), Swim +8 (+12 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ combat styles (archery), elf blood, favored terrains (forest +2, underground +4), hunter's bonds (companions), swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +3), +2 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +3), Blunt arrows (20), Smoke arrows, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), 388 GP
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Special Abilities
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Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Aberrations +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Aberrations).
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Hunting Companions (2 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot: 37.5
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot + Deadly Aim: 43.3
- Can shoot in melee without any problem.
- Can use Blunt Arrows and Smoke Arrows.
Now, if Archie's Str score is somehow reduced by -4 points:
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot: 30.6
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot + Deadly Aim: 37.6
- Can shoot in melee without any problem.
- Can use Blunt Arrows and Smoke Arrows
(I don't know if the extra damage from Deadly Aim affects the extra arrow from Manyshot, so I assumed it doesn't)
Male Half-Elf Ranger 10
NG Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
Init +8; Senses low-light vision; Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 99 (10d10+40)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +16, Will +12; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +1 Light crossbow +20/+15 (1d8+1/19-20/x3) and
. . +3 Light crossbow +22/+17 (1d8+3/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (aberrations +2, evil outsiders +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 7):
3 (1/day) Instant Enemy
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (3/day) Longstrider, Resist Energy (x2)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 22, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 25
Feats Clustered Shots, Crossbow Mastery (Light crossbow), Deadly Aim -3/+6, Endurance, Improved Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Light crossbow), Weapon Focus (Light crossbow)
Traits Elven Reflexes, Indomitable Faith
Skills Bluff -2 (+0 vs. aberrations, +0 vs. evil outsiders, +4 vs. undead), Climb +4, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14 (+16 vs. aberrations, +16 vs. evil outsiders, +20 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +14 (+16 vs. aberrations, +16 vs. evil outsiders, +20 vs. undead), Perception +21 (+23 vs. aberrations, +23 vs. evil outsiders, +27 vs. undead, +23 while in forest terrain, +25 while in underground terrain), Sense Motive +3 (+5 vs. aberrations, +5 vs. evil outsiders, +9 vs. undead), Spellcraft +14, Stealth +19 (+21 while in forest terrain, +23 while in underground terrain), Survival +14 (+16 vs. aberrations, +16 vs. evil outsiders, +20 vs. undead, +16 while in forest terrain, +18 while in underground terrain, +19 to track), Swim +4 (+8 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Sylvan
SQ combat styles (crossbow), elf blood, favored terrains (forest +2, underground +4), hunter's bonds (companions), swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Light crossbow, +3 Light crossbow, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), 388 GP
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Special Abilities
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Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Crossbow Mastery (Light crossbow) You can reload any crossbow as a free action. With your chosen crossbow type, this does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Aberrations +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Aberrations).
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Hunting Companions (3 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Light crossbow) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Average DPR with Rapid Shot: 22.43
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim: 32.47
Now, if Ross decides to use Acid Bolts (5gp per shot):
Average DPR with Rapid Shot: 25.2
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim: 34.7
Still behind the Archer who wields a cheaper weapon and lost 4 points of Str... That's just sad...
But wait! Maybe there's still hope for Ross, let's compare him to our next contender: Gary Greatswordstein
Male Half-Elf Ranger 10
NG Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
Init +6; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +4 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +14, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Greatsword +19/+14(2d6+1-/17-20/x2) and
. . +2 Greatsword +20/+15(2d6+11/17-20/x2) or
. . (Power Attack)+2 Greatsword +17/+12 (2d6+20/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +4) +15/+15/+10 (1d8+7/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (aberrations +2, evil outsiders +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 7):
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (3/day) Longstrider, Resist Energy (x2)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +16; CMD 31
Feats Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Endurance, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Power Attack -3/+6, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Traits Elven Reflexes, Indomitable Faith
Skills Bluff -2 (+0 vs. aberrations, +0 vs. evil outsiders, +4 vs. undead), Climb +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13 (+15 vs. aberrations, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +13 (+15 vs. aberrations, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead), Perception +20 (+22 vs. aberrations, +22 vs. evil outsiders, +26 vs. undead, +22 while in forest terrain, +24 while in underground terrain), Sense Motive +2 (+4 vs. aberrations, +4 vs. evil outsiders, +8 vs. undead), Spellcraft +13, Stealth +17 (+19 while in forest terrain, +21 while in underground terrain), Survival +13 (+15 vs. aberrations, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead, +15 while in forest terrain, +17 while in underground terrain, +18 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ combat styles (archery), elf blood, favored terrains (forest +2, underground +4), hunter's bonds (companions), swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Combat Gear Crossbow bolt, fire; Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +4), +1 Greatsword, +2 Greatsword, Crossbow bolt, fire, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ring of protection +1, 16508 GP
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Special Abilities
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Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Aberrations +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Aberrations).
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Hunting Companions (2 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot: 30.07
C'mon, this is pathetic! This guy is barely even trying! Archery is not even his main combat style!
Well, at least Ross is a bit ahead of Greg when using Deadly Aim... That totally makes crossbows a good choice, right? Right? Huh? Huh?
Yeah I didn't think so...
I hope Ross enjoys his extra HPs and slightly higher saves, because he pretty much fails as a martial character.
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Thanks for the baselines, Lemmy.
Focused Shot, if you put some more into Int, but even that only works as a standard action with 30 feet.
Possibly taking exotic to get access to heavy repeating crossbows, or Keen to expand the crit range.
Dual wielding light might help for the first round at lowish levels...
But so far, seems pretty one sided. I'll sleep on it and see if I can think of some combos in the AM.
Thanks for the baselines, Lemmy.
Focused Shot, if you put some more into Int, but even that only works as a standard action with 30 feet.
Giving up a full attack to add +1 damage doesn't seem like a very good idea. It wouldn't be a good idea even if it added +6 damage!
Possibly taking exotic to get access to heavy repeating crossbows, or Keen to expand the crit range.
Maybe, but that puts the crossbow man yet another feat behind the archer... I'm not sure it's worth it.
Dual wielding light might help for the first round at lowish levels.
Without TWF? Not a great idea either... And grabbing TWF not only costs a feat, it costs a feat that becomes rather useless with time.
TWF is likely to reduce his DPR even more, especially considering both TWF and ranged combat are extremely feat intensive.
Crossbows suck. They're not simply inferior to longbows. They suck. There is no reason to build around them. Any flavor they might have is overwhelmed by their ineffectiveness...
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Giving up a full attack to add +1 damage doesn't seem like a very good idea. It wouldn't be a good idea even if it added +6 damage!Thanks for the baselines, Lemmy.
Focused Shot, if you put some more into Int, but even that only works as a standard action with 30 feet.
Agreed. That juice isn't worth the squeezing.
There might be more to squeeze out of a crit build or a two-handed build, but I think you gave us a great jumping off point.
@ lemmy, with Crosbow mastery your ranger shoul be using A heavy crossbow. That should improve his DPR a bit.
Ah, that's true... I forgot about that... Still, it only adds an average of +1 damage per hit... I don't think it'd make much of an difference.
EDIT: Let me see...
Heavy Crossbow + Acid Bolts:
DPR using Rapid Shot: 28.18
DPR using Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim: 34.7
Still behind the Str-drained Archer... ¬¬'
And that's assuming Deadly Aim doesn't affect the extra arrow from Manyshot. (I think it does, but I assumed it doesn't, just in case...)
Crossbows simply can't compete...
Wild Rager, Furious Finish, heavy crossbow?
Admittedly, that works so much better with a double hackbutt...
So what would be a good number for a RANGER crossbowman? it seems obvious to me that he have to be below the archer DPR, but for how many (After all the Ross have better Int, Con and Wis)?
I don't know... Both of them are Rangers, so none of them has a significant amount of additional options compared to the other...
Ross have slightly better saves and can cast Instant Enemy. That's pretty cool... But this advantage becomes progressively smaller as the levels go up. And the difference in DPR increases quite a bit.
- The reason Archie has low Con is because he prefers to attack from long distance. If he's in melee, he can attack with his bow... Ross, on the other hand, is pretty much screwed.
- The extra skill point is nice, but it's not like Rangers have to worry about skill points...
- The higher Wisdom score is his greatest advantage, IMO. It gives Ross a few bonus spells (he can already cast Instant Enemy once per day, Archie has to level up or buy a better Headband of Wisdom to do so) and a better will save.
But he's terrible at his main job: Combat. His numbers would be okay if he was a Rogue or a Bard, but for a full BAB class with lots of bonus Combat feats that don't even have prerequisites. It's simply unacceptable.
Hell, even the melee-focused Ranger is a better ranged combatant than the crossbow man. He deals a bit less damage, but he invested a grand total of 3 feats in it! Ross dedicated his whole build! That's pathetic.
Crossbow suck, plain and simple...
Well, that's why you become immune to fatigue. Which, last I recalled, the boards agreed would still provide immunity to that ability.
And that's assuming Deadly Aim doesn't affect the extra arrow from Manyshot. (I think it does, but I assumed it doesn't, just in case...)of course it does.
Hah... Calculating Archie's DPR with this in mind:
Average DPR using Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim: 47.2
...And now, the Str-drained version of Archie:
Average DPR using Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim 41.47
...And of course, Ross' best case scenario:
Average DPR using Heavy Crossbow + Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim + Acid Bolts: 34.7:
G~$@~+it, Ross, you suck!
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Crossbow mastery gives you effectively point blank mastery (no AoO),No it does not. Reloading no longer provokes, you still provokes when firing. You need crossbow mastery PLUS point blank master for no AoO (compare to the archer only needing point blankmaster).
Free from the archetype
Safe Shot (Ex)At 13th level, a crossbowman does not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks with a crossbow.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 3.
Edit:
Improved Deadshot (Ex)
At 7th level, when a crossbowman attacks with a crossbow as a readied action, his target is denied its Dexterity bonus to its AC.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2.
Quick Sniper (Ex)
At 9th level, a crossbowman gains a bonus equal to 1/2 his fighter level on Stealth checks when sniping. When he is hit with a ranged attack, he can shoot his crossbow at his attacker as an immediate action if it is loaded.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 2.
And
Pinpoint Targeting (Ex)
At 15th level, a crossbowman gains Pinpoint Targeting as a bonus feat.
This ability replaces Armor Training 4.
Which books are allowed?
3) Haven't run the numbers. But I still wonder if the Fighter crossbowman archtype might -occasionally- be worth something not as DPR, but when readying to disrupt spells and spell-like abilities.
Seems like the Crossbowman could be a very useful niche-fighter. He won't compete with an archer in damage, but the abilities could be best used as caster lockdown. In the DPR contest though, he will lose because everything about the Crossbowman seems built around the readied action, which means he has to rely on standard actions to get his damage out, and he just won't be able to keep up.
I'm thinking, in an urban campaign, you can have a Crossbowman stationed on the rooftops. His job is to identify the casters, and use readied actions to snipe them when they attempt to cast. His job is not to deal damage, but to lock down the caster. Could be very effective in that role, but it would definitely be a "your mileage may vary", and probable more effective as an NPC than a PC. They would become especially potent late-game at this role, as at level 15, when they snipe as a readied action they can be attacking an AC of 10+Deflection, so they should just about never miss.
Might also be worthwhile to multiclass into rogue/ninja/vivisectionist after level 7 to enable sneak attack damage on your snipes. This would limit you to 1/2 of your Dex on damage for readied actions, but the Sneak Attack damage should make up for that damage loss. Would be a question of if the other class abilities made up for halting the crossbowman progression. I wish that Improved Deadshot came earlier, because it would make the archetype much better as something for sniper rogues to dip into.
Well, that's why you become immune to fatigue. Which, last I recalled, the boards agreed would still provide immunity to that ability.
While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat, you can choose not to roll your damage dice and instead deal damage equal to the maximum roll possible on those damage dice. If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be).
Seems like the feat says you'd still be fatigued even if immune...I'm not sure though. The text seems clear, but there is a bit of room there for immunity stopping it.
At work so I'd have to certainly give this more thought. But I think if I were to play a crossbowman archetype, I'd focus a bit more on single, hard-hitting attacks that do a great deal of both base dice and flat modifier damage. Probably looking at taking out around 20 to 25 percent of the health of a CR 10 enemy at level 10 and work from there. I'll post something up later, preferably after ciretose since I've actually never built a dedicated crossbowman before :)
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So I can see a couple ways to go. First, straight crossbowman.
=== Stats ===
Str 10,Dex 20 (24),con 14,Int 10,Wis 14, Cha 10.
=== Defense ===
AC: 17 (+ Armor, +7 dex,)
Hp: 77 (10d10+20)
CMD: 29 (39 against Trip and grapple, 35 Against disarm and sunder)
=== Saves ===
Fort: +9
Ref : +10
Will: +6 (+9 Fear)
=== Attacks ===
Crossbow, Heavy: +23/+18 (1d10+6 18-20/x2) (DA 20/+15 1d10+12) +1 Damage Point Blank
Crossbow, Heavy (Rapid shot: +21/+21/+16 (1d10+6 18/20/X2) (DA +18/+18/+13 1d10+12) +1 Damage Point Blank
Deadshot +23 ((1d10+11 18/20/X2)) or DA (1d10+17 18/20/X2)
=== Traits===
Indomitable will, Slippery
=== Feats and talents===
1. Point blank shot, precise shot, Rapid Reload
2. Rapid shot
3. Crossbow Mastery
4. Weapon Focus (heavy Crossbow)
5. Weapon Specialization.
6. Deadly aim
7. Clustered Shot
8. Improved Critical
9. Greater weapon focus
10. Point Blank Master
=== Skills ===
Stealth + 26 (10 more Skill points to spend)
=== Special ===
Deadshot (Ex)
Crossbow Expert (Ex)
Quick Sniper (Ex):
=== Gear ===
+2 Heavy Crossbow (8050)
Dex Belt (16000)
People can fill in the other equipment as they like, this is the core I think.
DPR Normal = 21.82
DPR DA = 27.17
DPR Normal Rapid = 30.41
DPR DA Rapid = 37.23
Damage with a readied action
Quick sniper is pretty badass, letting me return a shot if I'm hit with a ranged weapon as an immediate action. And I can both load and shoot without provoking.
Again, I have no horse in this race, I'm just playing with numbers. Feel free to move things around. I wouldn't mind playing this character as a sniper, but again, no horse in the race.
The other way to go would be to take 5 level to get the Crossbowman advantage for Crossbow Expert is that as I read it, the increase comes even if you aren't a fighter. So multiclassing after 5th could be useful.
So I can see a couple ways to go. First, straight crossbowman.
** spoiler omitted **
People can fill in the other equipment as they like, this is the core I think.
DPR Normal = 21.82
DPR DA = 27.17
DPR Normal Rapid = 30.41
DPR DA Rapid = 37.23Damage with a readied action
Quick sniper is pretty badass, letting me return a shot if I'm hit with a ranged weapon as an immediate action. And I can both load and shoot without provoking.
Again, I have no horse in this race, I'm just playing with numbers. Feel free to move things around. I wouldn't mind playing this character as a sniper, but again, no horse in the race.
The other way to go would be to take 5 level to get the Crossbowman advantage for Crossbow Expert is that as I read it, the increase comes even if you aren't a fighter. So multiclassing after 5th could be useful.
Let me look at this.
A while back, a good friend of mine actually posted an interesting formula that was fairly consistent in what attack bonus you should be looking at to hit a target AC of an Average APL Appropriate CR on 6-8 on a d20 die roll. So, for a level 10 character, we're looking around at least a +17 to attack rolls for you to hit an Average APL Appropriate AC of 24. Which would hit on a 7 or more on a die roll (so a 70% chance of hitting). Looking at the fighter you posted, Chris Bowman the Crossbowman (I like the name, shut up!) has a +23 and a +18, both above what would be needed to hit someone of AC 24 (95% and 75% respectively). Even with the minus from Deadly Aim, the +15 for a secondary attack is still respectable enough (60% chance to hit, with a 9 on the die roll) to land some hits and raise the DPR level. The percent-of-health damage you are doing to an Average APL Appropriate encounter is, in order (and against HP 130); 16.8%, 20.9%, 23.4%, and 28.6% of the target's health, respectively. Assuming all hit, all do average damage, and of course, the calculations are correct. So, at least with my criteria of doing 20% - 25% of the Average APL Appropriate target's HP in damage, this is still a solid hitter.
Now take a shot for every time I say 'Average APL Appropriate' :)
...preferably after ciretose since I've actually never built a dedicated crossbowman before :)
Me either...I was waiting to see what else would appear, but I'll take the bullet :)
I feel yah. Blah blah blah burden of proof blah blah blah martials can't have nice things, etc. ;)
Odraude,
You're probably giving up around 20% or so of the potential DPR of Farshot Fallon by going crossbow. In return you get a little more utility with being able to shoot prone and do some readied actions games. A crossbowman (hardcore optimized) would be an acceptable character in a game where the other characters aren't very optimized.
I feel like I'm being dense, but I've not heard of Far Shot Fallon. What is it? I know Far Shot, but not that.