Testing Grounds: Crossbowman


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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ciretose wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Nicos wrote:

Rapid shot do not let you full attack with Heavy crossbows.

Why not? With Crossbow Mastery, he's able to continuously notch bolts onto any crossbow.
That what I meant, Rapid shot is not enough crosxxbow mastery is neccesary.
The reloading without provoking is certainly helpful.

True but I did not take pointblank master neither. That kin of buildis too feat intensive for little reward.

Your build is like an archer with rapid shot. I try to go for a one big shot but I do not think is posible.

Liberty's Edge

Agreed. The Crossbowman not being able to access dualing gloves is a major hitch in the build.

You could throw Vital Strike on, which is better with a crossbow. Also, double crossbow?


ciretose wrote:
You could throw Vital Strike on, which is better with a crossbow. Also, double crossbow?

Maybe but that need even another feat >.>

Liberty's Edge

Not if you abandon the rapid reload stuff and really just focus on single attacks.


ciretose wrote:

Agreed. The Crossbowman not being able to access dualing gloves is a major hitch in the build.

You could throw Vital Strike on, which is better with a crossbow. Also, double crossbow?

I'm finding that if you want be the Crossbowman Archetype that focuses on the ready action concept, you really need feats and items that add more dice and modifiers to make up for no full-attack. The elemental burst weapon seemed to increase the DPR by a good deal, especially for a build revolving around Improved Critical and Critical Focus. Gravity Bow obviously helps, as does Vital Strike. The -4 for firing the double crossbow wouldn't matter after awhile, since you'll be pretty much almost auto hitting people you go against. For this build, I'm doing more than the average damage, but also calculating the probability for maximum damage as well as hitting other points of damage. For me at least, looking at average damage is only part of the equation and I feel it's important to look at the potential damage, maximum damage, and minimum damage any build can do.

The odd thing is that I'm doing the math from Lemmy's and Nico's builds and unless my math is off, I'm coming up with somewhat larger numbers for DPR. I'll triple check again, making sure I'm getting the orders of operations and such correct.


ciretose wrote:
Not if you abandon the rapid reload stuff and really just focus on single attacks.

You need rapid reload and crossbow mastery to reolad the double cowssbow as a MOVE action ¬¬

Liberty's Edge

Yes, and you will only be using that for one attack, hopefully as a readied action so you get those bonuses as well.


ciretose wrote:
Yes, and you will only be using that for one attack, hopefully as a readied action so you get those bonuses as well.

If you can put all that toghter in a build htat work it woudl be great.

Liberty's Edge

I'll see what I can do when the kid goes to bed.

Liberty's Edge

Quick and dirty convert of the original build while Mom is feeding the kid. I'm sure it is full of errors, but as a jump off.

Spoiler:

=== Stats === 
Str 10,Dex 20 (24),con 14,Int 10,Wis 14, Cha 10. 
=== Defense === 
AC: 25 (+ 6 Armor, +1 Natural, +7 dex, +1 deflection) 
Hp: 77 (10d10+20) 
CMD: 27 
=== Saves === 
Fort: +11 
Ref : +12 
Will: +8 (+11 Fear) 
=== Attacks === 
Crossbow, Heavy: +21/+16 (1d10+4 19-20/x2) (DA 18/+13 1d10+10) +1 Damage Point Blank 
Crossbow, Heavy (Rapid shot: +19/+19/+14 (1d10+4 19/20/X2) (DA +20/+20/+15 1d10+10) +1 Damage Point Blank
Double-Crossbow -Single Attack +19 (4d10+6 17/20x2) as a readied action v Vital Strike (4d8+7 17/20X2 vs Flat-Footed) or +15 4d8 +16 17/20X2 w/DA)
=== Traits=== 
Indomitable will, Slippery
=== Feats and talents=== 
1. Point blank shot, precise shot, Rapid Reload 
2. Rapid shot 
3. Crossbow Mastery 
4. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Double Crossbow)
5. Weapon Specialization. 
6. Deadly aim 
7. Weapon Focus (Double Crossbow) 
8. Improved Critical 
9. Greater weapon focus (Double Crossbow)
10. Vital Strike
=== Skills === 
Stealth + 26 (10 more Skill points to spend)
=== Special === 
Deadshot (Ex) 
Crossbow Expert (Ex) 
Quick Sniper (Ex): 
=== Gear === 
+2 Double Crossbow (8050) 
+2 Heavy Crossbow
Dex Belt (16000) 
Cloak of resistance +2 (4000) 
Mithral Scale Mail +1 (5050) 
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000) 
Ring of Protection (2000) 
Boots of haste
16900gp Misc

Lost clustered shot and Point Blank Master for exotic and vital.

The Exchange

Quick questions, what dpr range are we aiming for? at lvl 11' If archery is 45 and crossbow is 35 is that good enough? Do we count the difference of 1 round or 4 rounds?

Do we consider spells interrupted by ready actions? Or other useful abilities?


GeneticDrift wrote:

Quick questions, what dpr range are we aiming for? at lvl 11' If archery is 45 and crossbow is 35 is that good enough? Do we count the difference of 1 round or 4 rounds?

Do we consider spells interrupted by ready actions? Or other useful abilities?

Whatever level you want if you make a crossbowman and the archer at the same level. I (and other) posted in level 10 because at that level any build should be on his own.

When posting the build you can make any commentary you want, if you feel that the loss of DPR is a trade off for other important features then you are free to say that.


ciretose wrote:
1. I didn't use point blank in the DPR formula either.

Ah, I see, I thought you did because you said "+1 point of damage from PBS". In this case, you probably forgot to account for the +1 to hit as well.

ciretose wrote:

2. I can actually now take human since I now have the extra feat.

3. So pick ones that do.

The whole point of this thread is to see what can be done. If you choose not to do something...

This isn't e-peen. We are actually trying to test for answers.

I didn't mean to sound like I was bragging or anything. But I try to keep the compared builds more "realistic" - That is, a character who is likely to be built (which reminds me why I originally chose light crossbows for Ross: Crossbow Mastery comes a bit too late, at 10th level, I think, so that's too long to not benefit from Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot, OTOH, if it becomes available at 6th (I can't remember right now), it's not much of a problem).

Building a character completely focused on something to the point where it's unlike what a real character would be seems a bit pointless to me... Like someone claiming you can be a skilled Fighter by being Human, if "being human is necessary, then it's truly a capability, it's a restriction. Same about "I can be a Witch with lots of skill points, all I need is being an Orc and use the Scarred Witch archetype".

Instead of "Can it be done?" I try to think in terms of "Can it reasonably be done?"

Which is why I usually don't use humans in these build comparisons, they're too easy to build, and usually make classes/builds look better than they are. I try not to depend on specific archetypes as well, since many of them offer a slight advantage in DPR or whatever is being tested but cause disproportionately high drawbacks in other areas.

It's the same reason I don't usually buy the highest weapon enhancement bonus available and invest in backup weapons even though they don't make the build look any better. It's the same reason why many of my buy items such as Feather Step Boots and Belt of Physical Perfection instead of Rings of Natural Armor and Belt of (Primary Attribute) +4.

Remember Dr.Fighty McCharming? I think he makes an excellent point in proving that Fighter can indeed be very skilled (albeit at highe investment and effort than any other class) because he is a non-archetyped Half-Elf Fighter. If he were a Human Lore Warden/Tactician, it wouldn't really prove anything.

Basically, my point is: If it can be done in a reasonable way, it can be made more specialized if the player wants, but narrowly specialized builds may not be capable of being effective if the player wants a more varied character.

After all, overspecialization is (usually) not the norm.

Of course, this is just how I see it. YMMV.

----------------

On an unrelated note...

1- I think Vital Strikes hurts more than it helps. I'd advise against taking it for a Ranged combatant.
2- Since these characters have high Dex, I'll just note that it's more effective to buy a +2 Mithral armor than a +3 Armor. So keep that in mind.


Human Fighter 10 (Crossbowman)

=== Stats ===
Str 10, Dex 20(22), Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7.

=== Defense ===
AC: 24 (+6 Armor, +6 Dexterity, +2 Deflection)
Hp: 59 (average, 10+9d10)
CMD: 16

=== Saves ===
Fort: +9
Ref : +11
Will: +7 (vFear +10)

=== Attacks ===
Light Ballista +2 (All Feats used, Readied Actions):
Hit +20 (Ignores Dex), Damage 6d8+19, Critical 19-20x3 (Confirm +21, Damage 12d8+19), Range 120', Crew 1, Aim 0, Load 2 (Move), Speed 10'

=== Traits===
Dim Seer (Regional), Anatomist (Combat)

=== Feats and Talents===
1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Light Ballista), Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Weapon Focus (Light Ballista)
3. Deadly Aim -3/+6
4. Weapon Specialization (Light Ballista)
5. Siege Engineer
6. Vital Strike
7. Desperate Battler
8. Greater Weapon Focus (Light Ballista)
9. Devastating Strike
10. Master Siege Engineer

=== Skills ===
Knowledge(Engineering) +14 , Perception +20 (Dim Light +22), Profession(Driver) +15 , Survival +15

=== Special ===
Bravery +3
Deadshot
Crossbow Expert +2
Improved Deadshot
Quick Sniper

=== Gear ===
Wagon(Light)
Horse(Light)
Light Ballista +2
Ring of Protection +2
Belt of Dexterity +2
Mithril Shirt +2
Eyes of the Eagle
Cloak of Resistance +2
Bracers of the Falcon's Aim
Handy Haversack

Gold: 15,475


Vital strike favors weapons with big damage dice. However instead of the double crossbow I'd recommend a large-sized weapon (or gratuitous use of potions/oils of gravity bow or enlarge person... or both!) A large sized bow imparts a -2 (compared to the double xbow's -4) to hit, for the same damage dice, with no additional proficiency requirements.

Just my two cents.

Liberty's Edge

GeneticDrift wrote:

Quick questions, what dpr range are we aiming for? at lvl 11' If archery is 45 and crossbow is 35 is that good enough? Do we count the difference of 1 round or 4 rounds?

Do we consider spells interrupted by ready actions? Or other useful abilities?

This is more abstract. It is a general "Is this a viable option or should we ask the Devs for a boost" thread.


In real life the Longbow was the king of the pre-firearms missile weapons. The regular longbow should actually be able to be made into a strength bow also, and probably was a strength bow by default. It hit harder than a composite bow but required more strength to use. The higher pull meant that it was little less accurate than a composite bow

Composite bows were designed to be springy. If you made them solid enough to use as a strength rated bow they would probably either fall apart when the bonding agent failed or would loose their springiness and effectively become a poorly made longbow.

Historically in the middle ages the appeal of a crossbow was due to a few reasons.

1) It requires a very low amount of training to become capable with a crossbow. Most rifle tactics originated as crossbow tactics. Bows required many years of training and practice to become good at it. It would take a crossbow wielder a month or 2 to develop the accuracy it would take a decade to develop with a bow.

2) Given that they did not want peasants to have the ability to kill their own lord easily, most nations decided the bow was right out in order to preserve the dominance of the Nobility over the commoners. Crossbows with the lower training time made training new troop a quick and easy process meaning you did not have to have thousands of peasants training for decades to kill knights.

3) Crossbows could penetrate the armor of a knight better than any bow Except maybe a longbow. Only a normal longbow could come close to matching the armor penetration ability of a crossbow. Short Bows and Composite bows were not as good as a long bow against heavily armored opponents. The longbow came close to a cross bow, what made it better is it could penetrate plate armor and had 2 to 5 times the rate of fire of a Crossbow.

The real life choice was, rate of fire(Bow)vs. better ability to kill or injure your target.(Crossbow). This choice did not change until the English longbow when you could have both in 1 weapon.

***********************************************************************

Bows were attractive to England because you can have the weathiest peasants train at their own expense for their entire lives. A yeoman is a wealthy peasant that has enough land to make him middle class and therefor trustworthy enough to trust as a soldier due to the fact that is it in his best interest to preserve the status quo. This is because he has it better in England than any other nation would give him.

Long and Short Bows are cheep enough in the Real life middle ages that they are affordable by peasants. Due to how they are manufactured, crossbows should actually be more expensive than a longbow or shortbow but far cheeper than a composite bow.

***********************************************************************

Non-composite bows if you translated them into pathfinder money from medieval prices would translate into 6sp for a Long Bow, maybe 1gp. A longbow took 1 day or less to make, then they had to cure for 1 week before being ready for sale. I never adjust the pathfinder prices for the longbow as it is a peasants weapon and the cost would better reflect that those without money were the ones buying them. Those with money equipped as Heavy Infantry or Knights. Another factor that pathfinder does not account for is your average longbow had more hitting power than a comparable composite bows. Any bow should be strength ratable if crafted right, not just a composite bow.

Composite bows took a week to make and had to sit for 1 year before they were sold so their prices might be reasonable. They also needed dry climates or they might not cure right due to how long it took to cure. So your custom made mighty compost bow should take over a year to make from the time you paid for it, and would probably have to be imported from the middle east. Europe was to wet for composite bow manufacture. The advantage of a composite bow was in accuracy. They were a little more accurate due to lower strength requirements to draw the bow. Their hitting power was roughly the same as a short bow and less than a long bow. They were made of multiple materials bonded together over a long time period.
A composite bow relies on the bow itself acting as flexable spring to multiply the force drawn on it. The makers of composite bows did not have the quality of materials to make a good longbow. The solution was to make a composite material and rely of springiness to generate enough power. The Ash and Yew that a long bow uses can generate and handle more power hitting power than a composite material.


Just fixing this text... The typos made it look like my point made no sense... lol.

Lemmy wrote:
Building a character completely focused on something to the point where it's unlike what a real character would be seems a bit pointless to me... Like someone claiming you can be a skilled Fighter by being Human, if "being human" is necessary, then it's not truly a capability, it's a restriction. Same about "I can be a Witch with lots of hit points, all I need is being an Orc and use the Scarred Witch archetype"


I don't think we should ask the devs for a boost. This isn't a fundamental failing. This is an aspect of system mastery that is built into the game. It's nothing like the monk, where it's a whole class that's affected. (Btw, I asked the design team what the one thing is that they'd change if they had the chance...it was the monk.)

I do think that we should not focus on damage, but other things. Chief amongst this is on-crit type effects. With a for-sure 17-20 crit range (and possibly 15-20/x3 crit range depending on your interpretation), focusing on that may be the key here.


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Cheapy wrote:
I don't think we should ask the devs for a boost. This isn't a fundamental failing. This is an aspect of system mastery that is built into the game.

I do think that this an example of a fundamental failure of the game. The game should not be based around a couple of options that are better and a bunch that are inferior.

Afther all one of the reason the Greatsword/armor spikes was banned cause it was to strong, was not that an example of system mastery?

PF books have the feature of having too much page filler options.

Liberty's Edge

Some options are inferior. That isn't a failing, it is a challenge. It is only a problem if they have no utility, not when they have less than optimal utility.

The most used options should be better than the lesser used options. That is why more people use them.

It looks to me like you can build a viable crossbow user. Crossbowman should probably have the crossbow damage increase work with weapon training, since it is basically weapon training.

I'm once again pleasantly surprised how much we've gotten out of this.


ciretose wrote:

Some options are inferior. That isn't a failing, it is a challenge. It is only a problem if they have no utility, not when they have less than optimal utility.

There is no problem with slight umbalances in power, but there ar e a lot of useless options like vow of poverty, and a most of gnomes of golarion feats.

I think the crossbowman enter in the cateory of usseles option.

ciretose wrote:


The most used options should be better than the lesser used options. That is why more people use them.

You are looking it with the wrong perspective IMHO. The most use option are the ones that are stronger, not the other way around.

ciretose wrote:


It looks to me like you can build a viable crossbow user. Crossbowman should probably have the crossbow damage increase work with weapon training, since it is basically weapon training.

I'm once again pleasantly surprised how much we've gotten out of this.

I pretty much think that hte crossbowman archetype is terrible. And the vanilla fighter with crossbow is still terrible, more feat investment for less rewards. If there will be less reward then the combat style should cost less feats.

Rembember that the Greatsword/armor spikes were better thatn the dual kukri by 5,6 point of damage. The Ranger archer in this thread is ahead for more than 10 points to the a ranger crossbowman. The same happens wi the fighter archer vs he fighter crossbowman.

Liberty's Edge

A ranger archer is ahead of a ranger crossbowman.

You may be right, but surely we need more data.

EDIT: And looking back at that crossbow example, it really didn't use the advantages, and I'm not sure what some of the scores were for...

I'll throw something together this afternoon, that is not a competitive build.


Crossbows definately need a boost, but preferably something that gives them a more unique feel rather than just balancing them with bows straight-up. Maybe they should ignore DR by default and have a 20x4 crit? I'd push that on top of making deadly aim give crossbows a -1=+3 ratio like a 2hw does to really push home that this weapon is for dealing heavy blows rather than plinking away with arrow spam.


Could it be that Xbows are inferior by design- due to their intended use?

The longbow is a Martial weapon and is designed to be the "weapon of choice" for those truly interested in long ranged non-magical attacks.

Crossbows are simple weapons. This means that every- if not very nearly every class can swing a crossbow around starting at level 1. (are there any that can't? even the lowly wizard can use both light and hvy xbows at level 1.)

Are they inferior? On their face they are and by the math you are all doing it certainly seems so. But do they need a boost?

I don't think they do- anymore than a light mace needs a boost compared to a short sword or a flail does against a long sword.

There is a definate damage disparity between them but its not a flaw of the weapon. It is the intended design.

If they were both martial (or both simple) then I would see an issue but as it stands now simple weapons SHOULD be behind the curve compared to martial weapons of the similar type. If they aren't then there is indeed a problem.

Just a thought.

-S


Selgard wrote:

Could it be that Xbows are inferior by design- due to their intended use?

The longbow is a Martial weapon and is designed to be the "weapon of choice" for those truly interested in long ranged non-magical attacks.

Crossbows are simple weapons. This means that every- if not very nearly every class can swing a crossbow around starting at level 1. (are there any that can't? even the lowly wizard can use both light and hvy xbows at level 1.)

Are they inferior? On their face they are and by the math you are all doing it certainly seems so. But do they need a boost?

I don't think they do- anymore than a light mace needs a boost compared to a short sword or a flail does against a long sword.

There is a definate damage disparity between them but its not a flaw of the weapon. It is the intended design.

If they were both martial (or both simple) then I would see an issue but as it stands now simple weapons SHOULD be behind the curve compared to martial weapons of the similar type. If they aren't then there is indeed a problem.

Just a thought.

-S

It is not a mistery that crossbow are designed to be inferior, that have been state by the dev.

I totally agree than normally a bow should be better than a xbow, so amartial weapon proficience is soemthing valuable. That make a diferece for clerics for example, But for a ranger there is no diference between a simple weapon and a martial weapon.

More importantly, what is the poin to desing a wole archetype focuesed on crossbow if such archetype will be so bad?

Liberty's Edge

I've been playing with the ranger, and it is really held back by the lack of ways to add damage per attack other than favored enemy.

I actually think Lemmy's numbers were too high for his build, as RS and DA is a total -5 to attack.

Spoiler:

Ranger 10
=== Stats === 
Str 10,Dex 20 (24),con 14,Int 10,Wis 14, Cha 10. 
=== Defense === 
AC: 25 (+ 6 Armor, +1 Natural, +7 dex, +1 deflection) 
Hp: 77 (10d10+20) 
CMD: 27 
=== Saves === 
Fort: +11 
Ref : +16 
Will: +8
=== Attacks === 
Crossbow, Heavy: +21/+16 (1d10+3 17-20/x2) (DA 22/+17 1d10+9) +1 Damage Point Blank 
Crossbow, Heavy (Rapid shot: +19/+19/+14 (1d10+3 17/20/X2) (DA +16/+16/+11 1d10+9) +1 Damage Point Blank
=== Traits=== 
Indomitable will, Slippery
=== Feats and talents=== 
1. Point blank shot, precise shot,
2. Rapid Reload 
3. Rapid shot 
5. Weapon Focus 
6. Crossbow Mastery 
7. Snap Shot
9. Improved Critical 
10. Deadly Aim

=== Skills === 
Stealth + 21 (50 more Skill points to spend)
=== Special === 

=== Gear === 
+3 Heavy Crossbow (18150) 
Dex Belt (16000) 
Cloak of resistance +2 (4000) 
Mithral Scale Mail +1 (5050) 
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000) 
Ring of Protection (2000) 
Boots of haste
1900gp Misc

I didn't bother filling out the Favored Enemy or Ranger stuff, the key thing is the ranger is going to be way, way behind the fighter in attack and damage, meaning way behind in DPR.

I can get to +21 (+7 dex, +3 Crossbow, +1 Weapon Focus) but that means I'm only at +16 with DA and RS on a 1d10+9 17/20 crit for a weak 26.97 DPR.

I can haste that up to 40.89 10 times a day, but that is still only ok at best.

There is still some gold left in the build, but it is not looking good.


if you want to add damage, use deadly aim. Also, the ranger's way to add damage is favored enemy. ...
if you're a ranger, you don't have to take rapid reload to get crossbow mastery. So you could put something else there instead.
I think the crossbow is only going to really have a chance to be competitive with crit mastery (so: fighter 16 or something. Not ranger 10.)

Liberty's Edge

That is including Deadly Aim. I can also swap out snap shot, but that doesn't address the core issue.

The Fighter can get significantly higher attack bonus and damage per attack and therefore per round.

It takes everything I can see to get to 21 The combination of Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot drop the attack by 5 from 21 to 16 per attack.

A fighter with the same numbers can get to +25 by adding greater weapon focus (not available to rangers) and 3 weapon training (not available to rangers) and 5 more damage with weapon specialization (not available to rangers) and again weapon training (not available to rangers)

So when you started with 5 more damage at +4 to attack...


Did you take into account the spells the rangers would have to increase damage? Gravity Bow is a good start. I'd have to look at the ranger list. With a Headband of Wis +2, he'd gain access to Instant Enemy, though I wouldn't add that into the calculations since it'll only happen once per day essentially.


Odraude wrote:
Did you take into account the spells the rangers would have to increase damage? Gravity Bow is a good start. I'd have to look at the ranger list. With a Headband of Wis +2, he'd gain access to Instant Enemy, though I wouldn't add that into the calculations since it'll only happen once per day essentially.

The point should not be to compare rangers vs fighters. The ranger archer and the ranger crossbowman have avaliable the same list of spells. In the lemmy´s build the Ranger crossbowman have one extra use of instant enemy and thats it, one time per a that ranger do more damage than the archer but the rst of time the archer is way ahead.


You make a good point Nicos. Wasn't even thinking about that.


ciretose wrote:

I've been playing with the ranger, and it is really held back by the lack of ways to add damage per attack other than favored enemy.

I actually think Lemmy's numbers were too high for his build, as RS and DA is a total -5 to attack.

Don't worry, I did adjust the to hit and damage numbers as necessary... I'd not forget to add up the penalties. Even if I did forget, I have HeroLab to double check my numbers for me.

But feel free to double check my math if you want.


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I'd like to make a quick response to the 'Crossbows are simple weapons, of COURSE they're inferior to martial weapons' argument: following that logic, most exotic weapons should be superior to martial weapons. However, there doesn't seem to be too much of a noticeable difference between them.

Liberty's Edge

The difference should be about a feat. Because...well...that is the difference. Many exotic weapons seem lame outside of certain builds.

@Lemmy - I just wasn't sure how you got to +22. Reading a build vs making a build it can be hard to find all the bonuses.

I saw 10+6 (dex) + 3(weapon) +1 Weapon focus +1 (Bracers of falcon) for a total of +21.

You could get to 22 with Point Blank (in 30 feet) and I think we all agreed the Ioun stone was out since it didn't stack. So that is probably the gap.

Looking at it, with 14800 I have left, I can actually get a little higher by picking up the Falcon Bracers, but still lagging a bit.

Adding those in will give me a +1 to attack which takes me up to 29.58 normally and 44.37 with haste with 10k left and an feat available (since I'm not using improved crit anymore with the falcon gloves)

Anyone got ideas where to bump more? I can throw clustered back into the mix, but that doesn't bump much.


is it not possible to apply real world applications? crossbows dont do as much damage as longbow, have less range, but have DR penetration.


ciretose wrote:

The difference should be about a feat. Because...well...that is the difference. Many exotic weapons seem lame outside of certain builds.

@Lemmy - I just wasn't sure how you got to +22. Reading a build vs making a build it can be hard to find all the bonuses.

I saw 10+6 (dex) + 3(weapon) +1 Weapon focus +1 (Bracers of falcon) for a total of +21.

You could get to 22 with Point Blank (in 30 feet) and I think we all agreed the Ioun stone was out since it didn't stack. So that is probably the gap.

Archie has a +21, not a +22 (He's wielding a +2 Longbow). Only Ross has a +22 (He wields a +3 Crossbow).

I don't have the builds anymore, but I suspect HeroLab made the Pale Green Ioun Stone stack with Bracers of Falcon's Aim.

Doesn't matter, really... Both Archie and Ross have both the Ioun Stone and Bracers of Falcon's Aim, so the difference stays the same....

Greatsword guy and the Bard suddenly look better in the comparison, since they don't have those items (Although the Bard has 4k gold left.)

Liberty's Edge

The Bard depends on spell buffs. If you actually swap out the composite shortbow (1d6) for a light crossbow (1d8) you are one less without any strength commitment, meaning you can put the ability scores elsewhere.

This is actually what the crossbow is good for. Builds without strength. You have a 16 Str bard, when you could have a 10 Str bard and do one less damage a round with a higher ability score elsewhere.


Late to this party and these are probably not incredibly important points but seeking to exploit the critical range:

1. Weapon Master Fighter might well be better than a crossbowman, particularly on a critical focussed build (Reliable Strike, Deadly Critical and Critical Specialist);

2. Teamwork Feat - Target of Opportunity - this may suit a high critical damage shot build also, giving the frequent extra attack - but requires another archer in play also.

3. Teamwork Feat - Seize the Moment - not sure if this would apply to a missile weapon (but see no reason why not) but again an extra attack of opportunity. This on the crossbow weapon master co-operating with a hand to hand specialist would probably give the hand to hand fighter a number of additional attacks due to the high number of criticals the crossbow weapon master could generate.

Again just thoughts and 2 of these options would require other pcs taking teamwork feats.


ciretose wrote:

The Bard depends on spell buffs. If you actually swap out the composite shortbow (1d6) for a light crossbow (1d8) you are one less without any strength commitment, meaning you can put the ability scores elsewhere.

This is actually what the crossbow is good for. Builds without strength. You have a 16 Str bard, when you could have a 10 Str bard and do one less damage a round with a higher ability score elsewhere.

1st... Barry's DPR doesn't include any buff other than Arcane Strike (which he can use pretty much all the time) and Inspire Greatness (which is not even his best damage-boosting performance and he can do it for 26 rounds a day)

2nd...With a crossbow, Barry'd be unable to full attack without Rapid Reload. So even if he had Str 10, he'd be better off with a shortbow. Slightly higher damage die is not worth having to grab a feat just so you can full attack, especially when he could be grabbing Manyshot instead. And Barry can always make his bow Adaptive for a no more than 1000gp and benefit from any effect that increases his Str score, such as Bull's Strength.

- If he's willing to raise his Str modifiers, bows are much, much better.
- If he's not willing to raise his Str modifiers, but is okay spending a feat, Manyshot more than compensates for a slightly lower damage die, while a crossbow would force him to grab Rapid Reload. Bows will always be at least 1 feat ahead of crossbows.
- If he's not willing to raise his Str and doesn't want to spend a feat either, bows are still better because he can at least make iterative attacks, and that's an even bigger advantage for a class with Haste in its spell list.

Crossbow is "good" for people who can't use a bow. And that's just because they have no choice.

Liberty's Edge

You can't take manyshot until 9th (You qualify at 8th, but no feats) so it is a moot point for most of the build.

I do agree it would be nice to have an crossbow equivelent to Manyshot, but again it comes down to the crossbow doing more damage as a simple weapon.


ciretose wrote:
You can't take manyshot until 9th (You qualify at 8th, but no feats) so it is a moot point for most of the build.

Then he takes Rapid Shot. Or Deadly Aim. Or whatever else he wants... Bows don't need Rapid Reload, so they're always 1 feat ahead (at least).

Liberty's Edge

Yes. That feat is weapon proficiency.

I noticed you didn't do a Cleric, Alchemist or Oracle build.

We both know why.


ciretose wrote:

Yes. That feat is weapon proficiency.

I noticed you didn't do a Cleric, Alchemist or Oracle build.

We both know why.

I didn't think of that... Oh, wait!

Lemmy wrote:
Crossbow is "good" for people who can't use a bow. And that's just because they have no choice.

So what?

Obviously, if you have no choice, you gotta live with whatever crappy options you have. That's why ranged Clerics and Alchemists are rare, because crossbows are so bad, there is no reason not to focus on other weapons and combat styles...

If I really, really wanted to make a ranged Cleric, I'd still choose weapon proficiency over Rapid Reload.


Well this isn't a Damage bit but more of a random thought (though not specifically crossbow... other than adding in the xbow archetypes' ready action niftynesss)
It would be interesting to have a ready action xbow guy, who readies (Now this depends on how the actions stack.. I'm not very good at that) shot on the run+precise shot (or whatever the one with the Int damage)+vital shot who just shoots whoever moves towards an area, In theory you could add in the line "stealthy shoots" so your trying to stay sneaky (can you move while prone? I never thought about that)


Lemmy wrote:
If I really, really wanted to make a ranged Cleric, I'd still choose weapon proficiency over Rapid Reload.

Or make a cleric of Erastil or some other deity whose favored weapon is the longbow.


Lemmy wrote:


If I really, really wanted to make a ranged Cleric, I'd still choose weapon proficiency over Rapid Reload.

This I agree.

The difference should be a feat, but the actual difference is higher. With martial weapon proficiency (longbow) you do not provoke when reloading, you add your str bonus to damage and manyshot would be available sooner or later (maybe later but still better than never).

Besides, when the Bracers of falcom aim get nerfed (at least JJ have stated that they will revise that item) the bracers of archery are still available for the archer not the crossbowman. A level 16 archer cleric would benefits from that extra +2 to hit, the crossbowman cleric is screw.


Hi all,

interesting thread, I thought I'd try as well.

Let me first note a few things:

1. I believe that the crossbowman really comes into its own at higher levels than 12, particularly due to the critical feats that can make him really devastating
2. I wanted to try to build something different. Here is therefore a double-endless-ammunition-crossbow-wielding (thus no manual reloading requiring) fighter
3. He's defensively OK (saves and so), but I would generally aim for something better. For comparison purposes it's ok I believe.
4. AC to hit: Maybe I overlooked it, I assumed Level+15=27 had to be achieved
5. Assumption: deadshot and greater deadshot stack since they don't say they don't or that they replace each other.
6. PBS 20, 2 traits, WBL (108000 GP)
7. I used the DPR formula, but I find it a bit lacking - my build is +1 more likely to confirm a threat than an archer (due to trait).
8. I did not factor in point-blank shot.
9. I did not factor in improved deadshot for the readied attacks which would give him an additional boost.

So here's my build:

Doubletto:

Doubletto
Human Fighter (Crossbowman) 12
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 100 (12d10+24)
Fort +13, Ref +16, Will +10 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +12/+7/+2 (1d4/19-20/x2) and
. . Longsword +12/+7/+2 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Endless Ammunition Darkwood Hand crossbow +26/+21/+16 (1d4+7/17-20/x2) and
. . +1 Endless Ammunition Darkwood Hand crossbow +26/+21/+16 (1d4+7/17-20/x2) and
. . Hand crossbow +25/+20/+15 (1d4+6/17-20/x2) and
. . Light crossbow +23/+18/+13 (1d8+2/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks greater deadshot +9
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 11, Dex 28, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +12; CMD 28
Feats Crossbow Mastery (Hand crossbow), Deadly Aim -4/+8, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Hand crossbow), Greater Weapon Focus (Hand crossbow), Greater Weapon Specialization (Hand crossbow), Improved Critical (Hand crossbow), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Hand crossbow), Rapid Shot, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Hand crossbow), Weapon Specialization (Hand crossbow)
Traits Anatomist, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +21, Climb +4, Craft (bows) +8, Craft (weapons) +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +14, Ride +13, Stealth +21 (+27 when sniping), Survival +6, Swim +4
Languages Common
SQ endless ammunition
Other Gear +3 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Endless Ammunition Darkwood Hand crossbow, +1 Endless Ammunition Darkwood Hand crossbow, Dagger (4), Hand crossbow, Light crossbow, Longsword, Belt of incredible dexterity +6, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of resistance +3, Handy haversack (4 @ 16 lbs), Artisan's tools, masterwork (Craft [bows]), Artisan's tools, masterwork (Craft [weapons]), 1792 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) - 0/10
Dagger - 0/4
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Anatomist +1 to confirm critical hits.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Crossbow Mastery (Hand crossbow) You can reload any crossbow as a free action. With your chosen crossbow type, this does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Endless Ammunition Weapon creates own non-magic ammo.
Greater Deadshot +9 (Ex) +9 to damage with a readied crossbow, target is denied DEX bonus.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Hand crossbow) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.

There are a lot of variations for it. I can do more, but here are those I calculated. Abbreviations first:
- SA = Single standard attack
- RA = Readied attack
- FA = Full attack
- DA = Deadly aim
- RS = Rapid shot
- TWF = Two-weapon fighting
- HS = Hasted

OK, so here are my DPr figures:
SA: 10.98
SA+DA: 17.11
RA: 26.58
RA+DA: 33.21
FA: 10.98+8.87+6,76=26.6
FA+RS: 10.13+10.13+8.02+5.91=34.2
FA+RS+DA: 15.56+15.56+11.67+7.78=50.56
FA+RS+TWF: 9.28+9.28+9.28+7.18+7.18+5.07=47.29
FA+RS+TWF+DA: 14+14+14+10.11+10.11+6.22=68.44
FA+RS+HS+TWF: 9.71+9.71+9.71+9.71+7.6+7.6+5.49=59.53
FA+RS+HS+TWF+DA: 14.78+14.78+14.78+14.78+10.89+10.89+7=87.88

Please note that the single values are rounded, the result has been calculated by a spreadsheet, though.

So I think that is quite decent, especially when considering that the full strength of the readied attacks is difficult to express, as well as the effects from critical feats. I would essentially go for critical focus and all the other critical feats, clustered shots and maybe improved precise shot.
Also, the idea of this character being pretty deadly when sniping, or moving + shooting is also interesting.

The hand crossbow is certainly rather ineffective wrt the damage die, but no penalty to shoot with one hand is quite nice. And the image of dual wielding hand crossbows is pretty appealing to me :-)

So let me know what you think and if I need to correct something (like the AC to hit or such).


Btw, building Doubletto as a TWW might also be interesting... :-)


Bump - or is it dead ;-)

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