Where did your Longbow get keen?
Perhaps Bracers of Falcon's Aim?
As a note, Chris Bowman the Crossbowman still has 37,950 gold laying around for buying items. I think it would be best to spend the money on similar items and recalculate to get a more accurate DPR total.
Also, odd question. I do know that Improved Critical/Keen do not stack with Bracers of Falcon's Aim/Aspect of the Falcon. However, if you have Improved Critical/Keen on the crossbow ciretose's fighter has, would it suddenly become 15-20/x3, overwriting the BoFA 19-20 but keeping its x3 crit multiplier?
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As a note, Chris Bowman the Crossbowman still has 37,950 gold laying around for buying items. I think it would be best to spend the money on similar items and recalculate to get a more accurate DPR total.
I don't know if they exist, which may be an issue.
I also only got to 48.03, without calculating how to do manyshot into the mix.
I'm not sure if Deadly aim applies to the second Manyshot attack or not, so that may be the difference.
I didn't see anything saying it was or was not precision damage.
Either way, he is ahead. But I'm open to ideas. This is what this thread is for.
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As a note, Chris Bowman the Crossbowman still has 37,950 gold laying around for buying items. I think it would be best to spend the money on similar items and recalculate to get a more accurate DPR total.
Also, odd question. I do know that Improved Critical/Keen do not stack with Bracers of Falcon's Aim/Aspect of the Falcon. However, if you have Improved Critical/Keen on the crossbow ciretose's fighter has, would it suddenly become 15-20/x3, overwriting the BoFA 19-20 but keeping its x3 crit multiplier?
It would kick me up a little bit to have the X3, I'll plug that in later, my daughter just woke up from the nap.
I'll check the math, but a warning, I got an hour of sleep this morning and am staring down a 13 hour shift so I'm probably not in the best math-crunching state.
@ Lemmy
The bracers of the falcom Aim do not stack with the Cracked pale green prism Ioun stone (both are competence bonus).
Ah, I missed that.
Well... It doesn't matter for the purpose of comparing these guys, both Archie and Ross have both items, so the result stays true.
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I need to pick up the gloves of dualing, that is another +2 to attack and damage.
And the Falcon aim will make my crit X3.
Plugging that in to my best DPR it goes up to 54.5 (but please double check me)
Still behind, but much better.
@Nicos- I am sure that you are probably correct, it is just odd to me that Deadly Aim and Manyshot stack.
I need to pick up the gloves of dualing, that is another +2 to attack and damage.
And the Falcon aim will make my crit X3.
Plugging that in to my best DPR it goes up to 54.5 (but please double check me)
Still behind, but much better.
@Nicos- I am sure that you are probably correct, it is just odd to me that Deadly Aim and Manyshot stack.
I don't believe by RAW the Crossbowman can take Gloves of Dueling, since you trade out Weapon Training for other abilities. I houserule that it can, but I think for the purposes of this exercise, it shouldn't.
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Odraude - Good catch. So I could do it with a straight Crossbow using fighter but not with the Crossbowman.
That is probably something the Devs should address.
The DPR would be the same as I posted if I went straight fighter. I would lose the special readied action stuff, but getting armor training back would be nice.
I understand that the expansion of threat range doesn't stack, but I'm wondering if the change from a x2 to x3 for the crossbow would still happen if you had, say, a Keen Crossbow (15-20/x2 normally) with the Bracers.
I'd also hesitate saying that it sucks, especially since the crossbowman build hasn't spent all of the gold yet on items.
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Deleted because holy crap I cannot math today.
Yeah, you're right. Don't know why I keep doing that. Again, one hour of sleep. Forgive me :)
That said, since the crossbows are all 19-20, it might actually be good to give Chris Bowman the Bracers to make it a x3.
@Nico- When my daughter goes to bed, unless Odraude wants to take over.
I'll take over after I go to bed ;)
Just to add insult to the injury...
Here's a Archery-focused Bard...
Male Catfolk Bard 10
CG Medium Humanoid (catfolk)
Init +8; Senses low-light vision; Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 68 (10d8+20)
Fort +9, Ref +17, Will +10; +4 vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependant effects
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Silversheen Cestus +9/+4 (1d4+7/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite shortbow (Str +2) +13/+13/+8 (1d6+6/19-20/x3) and
. . +2 Adaptive Composite shortbow (Str +2) +14/+14/+9 (1d6+8/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks bardic performance (move action) (26 rounds/day), bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: dirge of doom, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (4 targets) (dc 19), bardic performance: inspire competence +3, bardic performance: inspire courage +2, bardic performance: inspire greatness (1 allies), bardic performance: suggestion (dc 19)
Bard Spells Known (CL 10):
4 (2/day) Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement
3 (4/day) Good Hope, Haste, Dispel Magic, Mad Monkeys
2 (5/day) Heroism, Mirror Image, Silence (DC 16), Invisibility, Glitterdust (DC 16)
1 (6/day) Liberating Command, Saving Finale (DC 15), Silent Image (DC 15), Grease (DC 15), Animate Rope
0 (at will) Read Magic, Ghost Sound (DC 14), Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation (DC 14)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 18
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 26
Feats Arcane Strike, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits Heart of Clay, Reactionary
Skills Bluff +17, Diplomacy +17, Disguise +17, Handle Animal +17, Intimidate +17, Perception +17, Perform (act) +17, Perform (oratory) +17, Perform (percussion instruments) +17, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +21, Survival +1, Use Magic Device +17; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Stealth, +2 Survival
Languages Catfolk, Common
SQ bardic knowledge, cat's luck (1/day), jack of all trades: trained skills, lore master (1/day), sprinter, versatile performance abilities (acting, oratory, percussion instruments), well versed
Other Gear +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Composite shortbow (Str +2), +1 Silversheen Cestus, +2 Adaptive Composite shortbow (Str +2), Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of alluring charisma +2, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), 5095 GP
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Knowledge +5 (Ex) Add +5 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (move action) (26 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Dirge of Doom (Su) Enemies within 30' are shaken.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (4 targets) (DC 19) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +3 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Greatness (1 allies) (Su) Grants allies 2 bonus hit dice, +2 to attacks and +1 to fort saves.
Bardic Performance: Suggestion (DC 19) (Sp) Make a Suggestion to one Fascinated creature.
Cat's Luck (1/day) (Ex) Can roll 2d20 for a Reflex save and take better result.
Jack of All Trades: Trained skills (Ex) You may use all skills untrained.
Lore Master (1/day) (Ex) Take 10 on knowledge checks, and 1/day take 20 as a standard action.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Sprinter (Ex) +10 ft to speed when charge, run, or withdraw.
Versatile Performance (Acting) +17 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Act skill for Bluff or Disguise checks
Versatile Performance (Oratory) +17 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Oratory skill for Diplomacy or Sense Motive checks
Versatile Performance (Percussion Instruments) +17 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Percussion Instruments skill for Handle Animal or Intimidate checks
Well Versed (Ex) +4 save vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependent effects.
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot + Arcane Strike: 29.63
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot + Arcane Strike + Inspire Greatness: 35.75
- Can use Blunt Arrows and Smoke Arrows.
- Has all sorts of spells and party buffs...
Compared To :
Archie Pincushion:
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot: 37.5
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot + Deadly Aim: 47.2
- Can shoot in melee without any problem.
- Can use Blunt Arrows and Smoke Arrows.
Str-Drained Archie Pincushion:
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot: 30.6
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim 41.47
- Can shoot in melee without any problem.
- Can use Blunt Arrows and Smoke Arrows.
Greg Greatsword:
Average DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot: 30.07
- Can use Blunt Arrows and Smoke Arrows.
- Archery is not even his main combat style!
Ross Crossbower:
DPR using Heavy Crossbow + Acid Bolts + Rapid Shot: 28.18
DPR using Heavy Crossbow + Acid Bolts + Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim: 34.7
¬¬'
The freaking Bard is a better ranged combatant!
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@Lemmy- We got over 50 in the last round actually...
I think the crossbowman is severely flawed by having the weapon training replacement not actually be weapon training. That is something the Devs should look at.
A straight Crossbowman, with the gloves of dualing and the falcon aim thing in the build I posted gets to 54 if you can keen and X3 or 50.31 if you don't, with one feat left to play with (since you would lose improved crit) and including reloading and firing not provoking.
Like I said, Nicos I will fill it out later, I'm typing this while she is distracted by Duplos.
Myrmidarh magus? Can use spellstrike with single shot peer round at 4th level?
Also, he's dual-wielding light crossbows, which is where the dip in attack bonuses are. I think what ciretose and I are looking at is someone more focused on a single heavy crossbow.
And admittedly, the bard is better by 1 point which is honestly negligible.
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If there were a way to dual-wield and reload it would get interesting, but I'm not sure if that exists.
Manyshot and deadly aim is something I might FAQ elsewhere, not because I think anyone is doing it wrong but because I just wonder. It does certainly give a dramatic advantage to the archer with no real equivalent.
@Lemmy- We got over 50 in the last round actually...
They are Fighters. They're supposed to have high DPR.
And there are a few extra factors:
1- I didn't include Point-Blank Shot on mthe DPR of any of my character... I thought being 30ft from your enemy is not the smartest strategy for a ranged combatant, even more so considering Ross can't shoot in melee without provoking AoO (Archie can! And Greg carries a freaking Greatsword!)
2- None of my builds are human, that puts them 1 archery feat behind. (Except for Nicos' archer, who took Iron Will, which is basically the same as my Archer and Crossbowman's Dual Minded)
3- None of my builds bought "DPR-only" items, such as Belts that only boost Str/Dex (or just Dex, for Ross Crossbower). (Extra Con is always nice)
If there were a way to dual-wield and reload it would get interesting, but I'm not sure if that exists.
Manyshot and deadly aim is something I might FAQ elsewhere, not because I think anyone is doing it wrong but because I just wonder. It does certainly give a dramatic advantage to the archer with no real equivalent.
I was also in doubt, then I read the feat again:
Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
Since Deadly Aim is not precision damage... It adds to the 2nd arrow as well...
Anyway, I gotta go now, I'll check this thread again later
I'd say it does. Manyshot specifically calls out precision and crit damage, which Deadly Aim is neither. This would be "other damage bonuses". Though with a repeating crossbow, you should be able to Manyshot with it, switching out the necessity of Rapid Reload early on for EWP (Repeating Crossbow).
Also, there is some incorrect math with ciretose's critical stats. With Improved Critical, a Heavy Crossbow (19-20) should become 17-20, not 18-20. I don't know if that affected your math at all.
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@Lemmy- We got over 50 in the last round actually...They are Fighters. They're supposed to have high DPR.
And there are a few extra factors:
1- I didn't include Point-Blank Shot on mthe DPR of any of my character... I thought being 30ft from your enemy is not the smartest strategy for a ranged combatant, even more so considering Ross can't shoot in melee without provoking AoO (Archie can! And Greg carries a freaking Greatsword!)
2- None of my builds are human, that puts them 1 archery feat behind. (Except for Nicos' archer, who took Iron Will, which is basically the same as my Archer and Crossbowman's Dual Minded)
3- None of my builds bought "DPR-only" items, such as Belts that only boost Str/Dex (or just Dex, for Ross Crossbower). (Extra Con is always nice)
1. I didn't use point blank in the DPR formula either.
2. I can actually now take human since I now have the extra feat.3. So pick ones that do.
The whole point of this thread is to see what can be done. If you choose not to do something...
This isn't e-peen. We are actually trying to test for answers.
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I'd say it does. Manyshot specifically calls out precision and crit damage, which Deadly Aim is neither. This would be "other damage bonuses". Though with a repeating crossbow, you should be able to Manyshot with it, switching out the necessity of Rapid Reload early on for EWP (Repeating Crossbow).
Manyshot says arrows and bow, so nope.
EDIT: And my question on Deadly Aim is not that it says it, but that based on the description I'm not sure why it doesn't say it.
Good point. Totally missed that part.
I'll come back tomorrow, when I've slept.
I'd say it does. Manyshot specifically calls out precision and crit damage, which Deadly Aim is neither. This would be "other damage bonuses". Though with a repeating crossbow, you should be able to Manyshot with it, switching out the necessity of Rapid Reload early on for EWP (Repeating Crossbow).Manyshot says arrows and bow, so nope.
EDIT: And my question on Deadly Aim is not that it says it, but that based on the description I'm not sure why it doesn't say it.
Well if the feat listed everything that'd be under "other damage bonus", it'd probably span a couple of pages ;). I think it's safe to assume that you can use Deadly Aim, Weapon Training, and other flat, non-precision damage modifiers to Manyshot.
Deadly aim should treat crossbows like power attack treats 2HW. That would fix a lot right there.
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Filling in a little more (baby is in the bath with mommy, so I have about 15 minutes...), I'm giving up on the crossbowman (losing +2 to hit and damage without dualing gloves is just too much and just looking at the straight crossbow fighter
=== Stats ===
Str 10,Dex 20 (24),con 14,Int 10,Wis 14, Cha 10.
=== Defense ===
AC: 25 (+ 6 Armor, +1 Natural, +7 dex, +1 deflection)
Hp: 77 (10d10+20)
CMD: 27
=== Saves ===
Fort: +11
Ref : +12
Will: +8 (+11 Fear)
=== Attacks ===
Crossbow, Heavy: +25/+20 (1d10+6 17-20/x2) (DA 22/+17 1d10+12) +1 Damage Point Blank
Crossbow, Heavy (Rapid shot: +23/+23/+18 (1d10+6 18/20/X2) (DA +20/+20/+15 1d10+12) +1 Damage Point Blank
=== Traits===
Indomitable will, Slippery
=== Feats and talents===
1. Point blank shot, precise shot, Rapid Reload
2. Rapid shot
3. Crossbow Mastery
4. Weapon Focus (heavy Crossbow)
5. Weapon Specialization.
6. Deadly aim
7. Clustered Shot
8. Improved Critical
9. Greater weapon focus
10. Point Blank Master
=== Skills ===
Stealth + 21 (10 more Skill points to spend)
=== Special ===
Weapon Training 2 (Crossbow)
Armor Training 3 (sash)
=== Gear ===
+2 Heavy Crossbow (8050)
Dex Belt (16000)
Gloves of Dualing
Cloak of resistance +2 (4000)
Mithral Scale Mail +1 (5050)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000)
Ring of Protection (2000)
Boots of haste
1900gp Misc
Big add is the boots of haste.
So 50.31 normal with Deadly Aim and Rapid Reload
10 times a day, 73.71
I'm curious. Why is everyone (sans ciretose) using light crossbows?
Rapid shot do not let you full attack with Heavy crossbows.
Why not? With Crossbow Mastery, he's able to continuously notch bolts onto any crossbow.
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Why not? With Crossbow Mastery, he's able to continuously notch bolts onto any crossbow.Rapid shot do not let you full attack with Heavy crossbows.
Yup. I had to take Rapid Shot early to be able to qualify. At 2nd level it only lets me reload as part of a move with a heavy, but I can always use light crossbow or something else early on. I don't weapon focus until 4th, after all.
Odraude,
Farshot Fallon refers to an iconic character in the DPR olympics. Use the search function and you can see his build at level 10.
Thing about going heavy xbow is that you need 2 feats to be able to rapid shoot instead of just 1. Since the difference is a tiny bit of range and basically just one step of damage, many don't go for it.
Yeah I'll look him up. From what I can see, the only way I can find to make the actual Crossbowman Archetype come closer to a standard fighter using a crossbow is to use one of the elemental burst weapons, which, from what I was solving, rose it from ~37 to about 50. A sizable boost, to be sure. I'll keep tinkering and come back with something.
Roger, no problem.
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That what I meant, Rapid shot is not enough crosxxbow mastery is neccesary.Why not? With Crossbow Mastery, he's able to continuously notch bolts onto any crossbow.Rapid shot do not let you full attack with Heavy crossbows.
The reloading without provoking is certainly helpful.