In my game, the only rule for crafting is "Use the item creation table however you want, except no unlimited instantaneous effects." The game's medium progression, though I haven't quite given them enough treasure yet. (They're due for a big haul soon.)
But that's my game, which is probably a bit higher magic than usual. People can set their magic level to whatever they like and can mess with houseruling things however they want.
That said, there are two problems I see. First, the hard cap is probably going to cause the GM headaches, since he's the one that's going to have to say "that sword somehow stops functioning when you pick it up" and will have to keep up with the numbers, etc. GMs creating problems for themselves is nothing new though, and either he'll find a way to deal with it or change the rule eventually.
Second, houserules really should be given in the very beginning. These are something like the laws of physics in that universe and the characters ought to have been aware of them for their whole lives and wouldn't have picked up useless feats or the like. But maybe this is a new development in the universe or your GM has plans involving how your characters built for the normal universe are dealing with this new universe. (I'm not saying this is particularly likely though.)
(BTW, starting loot for 2 levels up is basically double your expected loot for your current level. I'm not sure it's terribly likely you hit that too often, but that depends a lot on how both the GM and the party deals with treasure.)
It's varied with our group's numerous campaigns between precisely how it says in the CRB and very specific rules and bonus crafting. For example, our Wednesday game runs exactly like in the book. The new Thursday campaign I'm running will keep magical crafting exactly like it is, but mundane crafting per week is done in gp instead of sp. On Sunday, we have a magic forge that we buy the capability to add item crafting slots and different item crafting feats; the forge also allows us to put sockets and 'materia' into our weapons, armor, wondrous items, etc.
The best advice I can give you with house rules for crafting, as with anything else, is to find a good balance between fun, simplicity, and fairness. That balance may vary from group to group, obviously, so don't take anything anyone else does as gospel for being THE way to do stuff.
For the problem with your friend and Craft Construct, simply let him retrain the feat to another item crafting feat if these new house rules don't work for him.
The GM wants to make it "fair" for everyone -
In my experience, that phrase is a warning sign that the Game Master is not interesting in "allowing" his players to have fun.
Asking and getting permission to do something and then having it nerfed is no fun, he should be allowed to retrain(or just plain rebuild).
I'm starting out as a GM and I allow crafting as in the rules, however; if you want to make something special; it has to be approved. If you're making something big; then it's an adventure(I'm aiming for sandbox and need plot-hooks from the PCs). But that is for a high-magic world with above average(eventually) wealth.
And more wealth increases the CR they can handle.
with average wealth/magic and above I use standard rules.(EDIT: Craft construct usually allowed)
Unfortunately, no. Just the GM permission. Your friend should point out that the new rule is made just to nerf him and nobody else, so it would be fair to let him redesign his character.
Unfortunately, no. Just the GM permission. Your friend should point out that the new rule is made just to nerf him and nobody else, so it would be fair to let him redesign his character.
Check the material on the SRD that was released recently in Ultimate Campaigns. I believe they created specific rules for it there. GM permission IS faster, though.
Re-he-he-healy? Well now, would you look at that.
Wait, I just red the OP (not skimmed it), and now I have some issues to clarify.
"Your equipped item value cannot exceed the starting loot value of a character two levels higher.
EXAMPLE: you have a 6th level character, his loot value cannot exceed what a level 8th character starting loot value. The table can be found in the pathfinder core rule book page 399."
So, going by your example, a 6.lvl PC (whose TOTAL wealth shouldn't exceed 16k of gold), cannot have an item equiped that costs more than 33k? Am I reading this right?
"11. Creating Items the official Rule:
-Selling items are set at 75% Item Value.
Does crafting still cost 50% of item value? If so then you can turn a profit by crafting. That is unusual for a game.
-Your equipped item value cannot exceed the starting loot value of a character two levels higher.
EXAMPLE: you have a 6th level character, his loot value cannot exceed what a level 8th character starting loot value. The table can be found in the pathfinder core rule book page 399."
That's not just the starting loot value per character. That's the total loot value per character you are expected to have at a given level. If someone is crafting an item that is worth what a character at their level+2 has, then he has either sold everything he owns to do so or flat out he has too much money. Having a single item that is worth what a character is supposed to have at level+2 means that in one item you have double the amount of loot you are supposed to have at your level.
I don't see how this rule changes anything unless either the GM is giving out way too much treasure, or the party is pooling their resources to get one really cool item.
BTW, if the GM is giving out way too much loot, I suggest you keep quiet and stop complaining! :)
If the GM is unhappy about the craft construct feat then he should just disallow it and allow the character to get a different feat.
Peet
I'm not really sure I see how this affects craft construct more than any other craft feat. Constructs are expensive, but then why would a low level character have that much money anyway? (Also, you don't exactly equip them.)
Re-he-he-healy? Well now, would you look at that.
Wait, I just red the OP (not skimmed it), and now I have some issues to clarify.
"Your equipped item value cannot exceed the starting loot value of a character two levels higher.
EXAMPLE: you have a 6th level character, his loot value cannot exceed what a level 8th character starting loot value. The table can be found in the pathfinder core rule book page 399."So, going by your example, a 6.lvl PC (whose TOTAL wealth shouldn't exceed 16k of gold), cannot have an item equiped that costs more than 33k? Am I reading this right?
Cannot have a total of items OR a single item that exceeds the 8th level max, yes
Essentially, it looks like the GM should have said no to craft construct and then realized after the fact he should have said no so he made a rule to make it all but impossible to craft them (as he IS saying that the constructs go against his personal wealth)as for the above 75% question, I posed that to my friend, this is what he told me (the numbers are from the GM)
Full Plate 1500
masterwork 150
crafting cost 500
2150 total cost
selling +1 Full Plate 75% 1987.5g
-162.5 profitSo no; you cant make a profit
And I agree; if he didnt like craft construct; he should have said no to start with, not 5 months later
Right now, I'm thinking that your GM and/or you are reading things wrong and/or not understanding, so I'm gonna make a summary of crafting and wealth-by-level so you can both understand.
Let's say you start a game at 6th lvl. You get 16k worth of equipment of your own choice (as per WBL table). If you started the game at first lvl and arrived at 6th, you SHOULD have AROUND 16k (it shouldn't wary much more tha halfway between previous or next lvl) worth of equipment. The game usually doesn't give you your expected difference of WBL at the same time you reach a new lvl.
Crafting and selling magical items. You craft magic item for half the market price. You sell it for half the price. It's intentional so you can't make any money. You can actually loose money when crafting magical arms and armor. But when you use equipment that you crafted, its FULL value counts against your WBL. Example: You craft +2 cloak of resistance. It costs you 2000gp. You can sell it for 2000gp. No profit, no loss of money. But if you keep it for your character it counts as 4000gp(the market price) against his WBL.
Crafting and selling non-magical items. You craft it for 1/3 of market price. You can sell it for half the market price. So there is a small profit margin for PCs. In the example of masterwork full plate you can craft it for 550 gp (1/3 of 1650), and sell it for 825 gp, meaning you can earn 275 gp. Unless you have fabricate spell, this takes weeeks and weeks of no adventuring. I don't understand your(GMs)numbers at all.
Now, the wealth by level table is a guideline, and it's perfectly reasonable for you DM to reduce or increase the figures there, but he should tell you that from the start and be aware what effect that has on PCs and NPCs.
I'm guessing that your GM gave way too much loot for your level, and it's starting to affect his game, so he is being heavy handed in reducing amount of gold you find or are able to get by selling things. It would help if you posted on boards what your level are and how much wealth do you have.
If my guesses are wrong, and you understand all of this, I apologize for patronizing.
Define "equipped value." If I've got five magic swords and I switch between them, do I only ever count one sword against the value?
If so, it's a pretty silly and arbitrary standard.
Here's a better idea to make it "fair for everyone" - let non-casters take a house-rule feat that makes them count as a caster for the purposes of taking crafting feats.
That way, anyone who whines and complains about someone else self-crafting and gaming the loot system can just spend their own damn feats to do their own crafting. Then leave the rest of the guts of the game alone.
Fair, done.
I think the rule of thumb is: If you use it(even just once) then it's full price towards WBL, but if you just find and sell it, then your wealth(and in a way power level) only increase by the selling price.
That's how I measure wealth in any case.
I think the rule of thumb is: If you use it(even just once) then it's full price towards WBL, but if you just find and sell it, then your wealth(and in a way power level) only increase by the selling price.
That's how I measure wealth in any case.
Wait, you mean if I had a +1 sword and used it, then sold because I found a +1 flaming axe that i'm using now, you'd still count the sword in my WBL?
Right now, I'm thinking that your GM and/or you are reading things wrong and/or not understanding, so I'm gonna make a summary of crafting and wealth-by-level so you can both understand.[...]
Crafting and selling magical items. You craft magic item for half the market price. You sell it for half the price. It's intentional so you can't make any money. You can actually loose money when crafting magical arms and armor. But when you use equipment that you crafted, its FULL value counts against your WBL. Example: You craft +2 cloak of resistance. It costs you 2000gp. You can sell it for 2000gp. No profit, no loss of money. But if you keep it for your character it counts as 4000gp(the market price) against his WBL.
I believe the two sentences highlighted above are incorrect as per the FAQ's on the subject. They have the effect of turning craft items into useless feats. If I can make an object but it counts against my wealth by level at full value, then I essentially paid full value for it (because I will be getting less gold until I do). Since I can typically buy any item in the game at full price, the only effect is to deprive me of the benefit of a feat that I could otherwise have spent on something useful.
Here's the FAQ text on the subject:
PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
—Sean K Reynolds, 01/13/12
Of course, your home game is your home game and the WBL guidelines are only guidelines, not straightjackets. But if you don't get a benefit out of item crafting feats, why take the feat in the first place?
Did not know this. It does make sense. That's why we house-ruled the item creation feats out, and only kept master craftsman.
For the price of Craft Wondrous Item I can have double items (since most slotted items are there and many utility)? Now I have to find a sucker GM...
But anyways it only applies to the dude with the feats? If he makes things and gives theme to his friends, the friends count the market price, right?
Since the Ultimate Campaign rule on crafting and WBL came out, this is how I'm doing it:
Crafters can craft anything they've got the wealth and skill to craft, BUT crafting costs default to 100% base price. However, every crafter has a personal pool of power that enables him or her to get up to a 50% discount on any given item they craft, so long as the total discount across all items crafted is no more then 25% of the crafter's WBL. If they craft charged or single use items using a discount on the crafting cost, the stored personal mana returns to them after the items are used up and that discount is added back to their total.
The implications include the idea that non-party crafters will be considerably rarer and will charge more than 100% base price (so they can profit), and that common magic items such as +1 swords will be treated more like trade goods, realizing full price if sold in large cities.
Did not know this. It does make sense. That's why we house-ruled the item creation feats out, and only kept master craftsman.
For the price of Craft Wondrous Item I can have double items (since most slotted items are there and many utility)? Now I have to find a sucker GM...
Subject to the usual limits about wealth distribution. If you spend all your money on wondrous items, you'll be hitting people with palm slaps and wearing a bathrobe and bracers.
But anyways it only applies to the dude with the feats? If he makes things and gives theme to his friends, the friends count the market price, right?
My reading of the second point (party wealth by level) is that he can also equip his friends if he likes. As always, though, it's your house and therefore your house rules.
Subject to the usual limits about wealth distribution. If you spend all your money on wondrous items, you'll be hitting people with palm slaps and wearing a bathrobe and bracers.Did not know this. It does make sense. That's why we house-ruled the item creation feats out, and only kept master craftsman.
For the price of Craft Wondrous Item I can have double items (since most slotted items are there and many utility)? Now I have to find a sucker GM...
Wizard? Druid?
My reading of the second point (party wealth by level) is that he can also equip his friends if he likes. As always, though, it's your house and therefore your house rules.
But anyways it only applies to the dude with the feats? If he makes things and gives theme to his friends, the friends count the market price, right?
Please someone tell me it's not the right interpretation...please? Anyone?
That one guy in a party can take an ICfeat, and suddenly everyone has double loot. I actually cannot make head or tales out of that second paragraph.
Subject to the usual limits about wealth distribution. If you spend all your money on wondrous items, you'll be hitting people with palm slaps and wearing a bathrobe and bracers.Did not know this. It does make sense. That's why we house-ruled the item creation feats out, and only kept master craftsman.
For the price of Craft Wondrous Item I can have double items (since most slotted items are there and many utility)? Now I have to find a sucker GM...
Wizard? Druid?
My reading of the second point (party wealth by level) is that he can also equip his friends if he likes. As always, though, it's your house and therefore your house rules.
But anyways it only applies to the dude with the feats? If he makes things and gives theme to his friends, the friends count the market price, right?Please someone tell me it's not the right interpretation...please? Anyone?
That one guy in a party can take an ICfeat, and suddenly everyone has double loot. I actually cannot make head or tales out of that second paragraph.
Ultimate Campaign has a rule that came out re: crafting and WBL. Paraphrased, it is as below:
Item crafters should get about a 25% benefit over normal WBL in comparison to non-crafters. If a crafter creates items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of the crafter's increased allotment. This prevents skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party and it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
There is no mechanism for enforcement listed for this, which is why I came up with the homebrew rule change I mentioned previously.
I'm not really sure I see how this affects craft construct more than any other craft feat. Constructs are expensive, but then why would a low level character have that much money anyway? (Also, you don't exactly equip them.)The GM is ruling you DO equip them as far as their value counts against the items you can carry
It is also fair. You have an extra guy always with you.
I'm guessing that your GM gave way too much loot for your level, and it's starting to affect his game, so he is being heavy handed in reducing amount of gold you find or are able to get by selling things. It would help if you posted on boards what your level are and how much wealth do you have.
If my guesses are wrong, and you understand all of this, I apologize for patronizing.
At 6th level my total wealth (gear and money) is 18240.0 gp
We have ppl in the party (namely those with oddly cheap yet verbally talking intelligent armor - one that bumps the AC to 35 or so) with 23821.0 gp
You are adequately equipped, and I'm guessing you have not just reached 6.lvl. Even if you did, no biggie. The other value is a bit over the top for standard, but not especially so. But the problem is if they atop of that have home-made item that is under-priced (which probably is if there is an 35 AC at 6.lvl). I smell favoritism.
SharkDefine "equipped value." If I've got five magic swords and I switch between them, do I only ever count one sword against the value?Yes, by the GM's ruling, every item you have on your person (even if it isnt used) counts against your limit
Since you are using them, it is a fair ruling. PF (and 3,5 before it) assume "golf-bag" of weapons.
Ultimate Campaign has a rule that came out re: crafting and WBL. Paraphrased, it is as below:
Item crafters should get about a 25% benefit over normal WBL in comparison to non-crafters. If a crafter creates items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of the crafter's increased allotment. This prevents skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party and it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
There is no mechanism for enforcement listed for this, which is why I came up with the homebrew rule change I mentioned previously.
That's an ok rule. The one-guy-ICfeat=party-double loot is not a problem in our group (we threw out IC feats, and any caster can craft magic items with other prerequisites, but at their full price), but it could be generally speaking.
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We're trying a houserule at 100% cost to craft magic items, except wands, scrolls, and potions (which use normal rules). Feat benefit is still intact - creation without being subject to the whim of random loot or magic marts (if there are any), and we allow items of the same slot to be "deconstructed" at 100% value into raw components to be used against the cost of crafting the new item.
I'm not sure about a rule that tells my players how much wealth they can equip. What happens if everyone decides to save up as a group and buy the front-line fighter a shiny +5 suit of armor, which would put him past his WBL? Shouldn't the group have that freedom? What happens if a player declares he will put on the armor? Will the gods strike him down for his heresy?
On the other hand, you have an insane # of players in the campaign, and if the crafter is allowed to make items at 50% cost for everyone, then the challenges built on WBL systems fly out the window. Personally, I'd just have done 100% to control costs if this is the worry.
I'm not sure about a rule that tells my players how much wealth they can equip. What happens if everyone decides to save up as a group and buy the front-line fighter a shiny +5 suit of armor, which would put him past his WBL? Shouldn't the group have that freedom? What happens if a player declares he will put on the armor? Will the gods strike him down for his heresy?
Not one of the guys I play with would go for this. They all like their characters' wealth very much. I wouldn't mind as a DM, or as a player (but I usually play that fighter so i'm biased).
<many things>
Reading through these, I will probably revise my principles, that being said I don't go much by WBL, and my players(bless them) usually don't try to break anything.
A note on the expensive constructs:
Alchemical Golem - comparable to a +4 weapon in cost, available two levels earlier, and you can only utilize so many +4 weapons... constructs on the other hand, that is paying for action econmy.
Oh... and BOMBS!!!
Alchemical Golems have a Bombs ranged attack... that's what I meant - Alchemical Golems are awesome.
ALSO:
Under the text field for posting, there's a line "How to format your text" and a "show" button. Click the button and knowledge shall be yours.
<many things>Reading through these, I will probably revise my principles, that being said I don't go much by WBL, and my players(bless them) usually don't try to break anything.
A note on the expensive constructs:
Alchemical Golem - comparable to a +4 weapon in cost, available two levels earlier, and you can only utilize so many +4 weapons... constructs on the other hand, that is paying for action econmy.Oh... and BOMBS!!!
The CL 12 of a +4 weapon is not listed in the Requirements section, so it's available as soon as the crafter can get the money, time and skill together. The golem actually requires the crafter to be a 10th level caster (or equivalent), except that can be bypassed by increasing the DC.
I do realize many people houserule these details but RAW the main limits are time and money.
my bad, CRB page 468: misread the caster level of the weapon as required caster level for the crafter.
Where do you have the increase DC for level requirements from? I've looked for that, but could never find anything concrete.
EDIT: Correction, at the end of the paragraph it says the higher of the level requirements must be met, indicating that it is a caster level requirement.
my bad, CRB page 468: misread the caster level of the weapon as required caster level for the crafter.
Where do you have the increase DC for level requirements from? I've looked for that, but could never find anything concrete.
EDIT: Correction, at the end of the paragraph it says the higher of the level requirements must be met, indicating that it is a caster level requirement.
FAQ on what can be bypassed - It seems that the caster level for a +4 weapon is an actual requirement, but it's specifically called out as one of the things that can be bypassed with a DC increase, so both are available whenever the creator can get the time, money and skill together.
FAQ on what can be bypassed - It seems that the caster level for a +4 weapon is an actual requirement, but it's specifically called out as one of the things that can be bypassed with a DC increase, so both are available whenever the creator can get the time, money and skill together.my bad, CRB page 468: misread the caster level of the weapon as required caster level for the crafter.
Where do you have the increase DC for level requirements from? I've looked for that, but could never find anything concrete.
EDIT: Correction, at the end of the paragraph it says the higher of the level requirements must be met, indicating that it is a caster level requirement.
Thanks! Just what I needed.
buddahcjcc:
A simple text search on the page(didn't read the whole thing) showed no mention of alchemist or witch... but it's your game, I just wanted to mention that it wasn't just an alchemist class ability.
Here's a better idea to make it "fair for everyone" - let non-casters take a house-rule feat that makes them count as a caster for the purposes of taking crafting feats.
This feat basically already exists. It's called Master Craftsman. From the core rulebook.
If your fighter is sick of having to get the wizard to make stuff for him, tell him to get the feat.
Peet
Well, that's the English language for you: I meant "your game" with 'you' being the group... but if that's not the case, and you come back for free - watch "The Gamers", and then make a lot of bards. :)
But seriously; if you're not having fun... there's only two options:
1) ask the group to adjust in the spirit of cooperative gaming
2) rage-quit - not really, but maybe look for another game