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Looking over the new rules, I decided to have a go at building a Theurge because they look like fun now. I'm stuck between the old Wizard/Cleric variant, or the new possibility of Oracle/Sorceror, focussing on just Charisma.
Here are the two builds, which would you pick?
Strength 8
Dexterity 10
Constitution 16
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 20
1:Lore Oracle Dual Cursed : Automatic writing (augury= level 2 divine qualification) Legalistic curse/ Blackened, Feat:Noble Scion
2:Arcane Sorc (Green sting Scorpion):
3: Sorc: Extra Revelation (Sidestep Secret)
4: Theurge :
5: Theurge :Extra Revelation (Misfortune)
6: Theurge :
7: Theurge : Improved Initiative
8: Theurge :
9: Theurge : Improved Familiar (Imp)
10: Theurge :
11: Theurge : Divine Interference
12: Theurge :
Traits: Magical Knack (Oracle), Reactionary
Features: Charisma modifies= Dex modifier to AC, Reflex mod, Init mod, Both casting stats, +2 cha to sorc abilities due to infernal sorcery.
-Misfortune + Divine interference re-rolls for allies/enemies
Strength 7
Dexterity 10
Constitution 14
Intelligence 18
Wisdom 18
Charisma 9
1:Wiz : Conjuration/teleportation- familiar=Greensting Scorpion, (Scribe scroll into:Spell Focus: Conjuration), Augment Summoning
2:Wiz:
3: Cleric : (Fate inquisition (Augury to qualify for Divine), Trickery domain (Mirror Image to qualify for Arcane), Superior Summoning
4: Theurge :
5: Theurge : Improved Initiative
6: Theurge :
7: Theurge : Dazing Spell
8: Theurge :
9: Theurge : Improved Familiar (Imp)
10: Theurge :
11: Theurge : Divine Interference
12: Theurge :
Features: Same casting progression as an equivalent level sorceror, but with level 10 cleric casting as well.
Traits: Magical Knack: Cleric, Reactionary
So far as I can see the comparison is this.
Wizard/Cleric Advantage:
gets access to higher level spells 1 level earlier, gets level 6 arcane spells at 12.
Extra feat, and 3 'open' feats for customisation.
4+ more skills per level, better knowledges
+4 Will Saves
Better at summoning
Much more versatile with two prepared casters
Sorc/Oracle advantage
One casting stat to focus on, will have much higher spell DC’s
5+ Higher AC/Reflex/Initiative
Has Misfortune to save allies/disable close foes.
Higher number of spells per day due to casting stat and spontaneous caster advantage
Also if you could pick apart any problems ( or improvements!) pre-emptively that would be great too :P.
I'm personally firmly in the camp that trickery domain does not qualify as a second level SLA.
That said, i personally prefer Sorc 2/cleric 1 combination for general games. For PFS that caps at 12 better Sorc 1/cleric 2.
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I'm personally firmly in the camp that trickery domain does not qualify as a second level SLA.
That said, i personally prefer Sorc 2/cleric 1 combination for general games. For PFS that caps at 12 better Sorc 1/cleric 2.
Interesting, for comparison, how would you do it?
For the Sorcerer/Oracle you really don't need double curse. Given the number of spontaneous spells you have I would really want to grab some metamagic feats.
Misfortune is decent but it only works once per creature. Persistent Spell will allow you to force every target to roll twice and you can use it over and over. Ill Omen is OK but its a standard action and you should have much better things to do with a standard action to remove an enemy.
I am looking at something like this for an MT.
I must admit I have never used Misfortune in game, it seems very useful though. What metamagic do you think would be most viable? Any thoughts on investing in Improved Familiar? I like your build, what did you pick up with Extra Revelation?
Empireal sorc/cleric, only wis a casting stat. If you cap at 12 start sorc 1 cleric 2, you end up sorc 10 cleric 11. Means heal + overland flight and teleport.
Race either tiefling or asimaar, just pick +2 wis and +2 anithing you want (cos or dex). Get the 2° level arcane with the race, and the 2° level divine with Fate inquisition. You can pick separatist cleric if you need more liberty with domain/god choice.
Magical knack on the lowest level class. Use cleric spells to buff the entire party (shield of faith, bless, ecc.), use sorc for low level "kill" spells like ray of exaustion, sleep(1 and 3 level) ecc.
Feats, you can get anything you want (aside power attack i suppose)
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Putting up a Dekalinder variant for comparison:
Strength 7
Dexterity 10
Constitution 16
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 20
Charisma 10
1:Cleric : Fate inquisition (Augury to qualify), Travel domain, Spell Focus: Conjuration,
2:Sorc: eschew materials
3: Cleric : Augment Summoning
4: Theurge :
5: Theurge : Summon Good monster
6: Theurge :
7: Theurge : Dazing Spell
8: Theurge :
9: Theurge : Superior Summons
10: Theurge :
11: Theurge : Divine Interference
12: Theurge :
Traits:
Traits: Magical Knack: Sorceror, Reactionary
Features: Cranked will save, single stat casting, 6th level Cleric spells, travel domain
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I am wondering why you chose Travel. On a standard Cleric its great as the Domain spells help enormously with mobility and Dimensional Hop is just great. All you are getting here though is 10' base speed and the ability to ignore difficult terrain for a few rounds per day. That might be useful early on but will fade very quickly in usefulness.
Mainly for access to its excellent domain spells to free up slots for the sorceror. Deception and liberation also seem nice. What do you think?
I approve of the travel domain. 10 base speed is a god bless (i guess domains are exactly that XD). Being even a single feet faster than the warrior means that if you retreat he can't charge you right away. And there is the excellent spell list too.
Also i should say, with all the gold you save from learning wizard spells (remember, you don't get the free ones with the MT) you can afford buying 1 or 2 spell knowledge pages. I suggest investing in a 3° level as soon as you get them (so you can have both haste and a more offensive spell like ray of exaustion) and then a 5° level one at level 12 to have both TP and Overland.
I guess you missed the last 2 days on the boards. There have been some news. If you click a random thread you have at least a 50% chance of getting the missing news that makes everything clicks in place.
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Not quite sure how your level progression works out. you have to be 6th level before taking Theurge as a cleric/wizard or 8th level for oracle/sorceror build. Since you need 2nd level spells for each class before you can go into Tueurge. From your builds it seems like you become a thurge before level 6 or 8 (oracle/sorc).
Hi Morris, there has been a change in the way Spell Like abilities interract with qualifications for prestige classes. Check out this thread for a starter. FAQs about SLAs and the impact on Prestige
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The game in PFS is 12 levels. The Sorcerer / Oracle build spends almost half of those levels without even level 2 divine spells; and 4 of those levels without level 1. To put it another way, the Sorcacle is a full spell level behind, which is not going to be made up for by diversity (who runs out of spells in PFS after level 3?).
The Wizic is better; it essentially has a sorc spell progression with the added bonus of cleric spells. I question why you have the 18 in Wis; that eats a lot of valuable points that could go elsewhere... a 14 should be fine (use the divine for buffing). Also, why 9 and not 7 cha?
For the sorcacle; dex should be 7, it does nothing for you. Same with Str. Get a higher int and wis for those points.
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It's a great find, not having to use the Wood Mystery is amazing.Some good ideas here. I hadn't noticed automatic writing. That's a good one.
Dot.
Oh shoot. I'm not sure it will work after all. Because:
Automatic Writing (Su): Once per day, you can spend a full hour in uninterrupted meditation. During this period, your hands produce mysterious writing that pertains to the future. At 1st level, the prophetic writing manifests as an augury spell with 90% effectiveness. At 5th level, the writing takes the form of a divination with 90% effectiveness. At 8th level, the writing manifests as a casting of commune with no material component required.
Even though it "manifests as" augury, it's not a spell-like ability but a supernatural ability. So–sadly!–I don't think it will work to satisfy that requirement.
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I question why you have the 18 in Wis; that eats a lot of valuable points that could go elsewhere... a 14 should be fine (use the divine for buffing). Also, why 9 and not 7 cha?
For the sorcacle; dex should be 7, it does nothing for you. Same with Str. Get a higher int and wis for those points.
Agreed with the Soracle point.
On the Wizard/Cleric, 9 Cha was just because that's all I needed for 14 Con. On the 18 Wis, depends on perspective, more spells plus having good DC's (for this build I would go +2 int/Wis Circlet) on the cleric seems valuable.I'm trying for both strong Cleric and Wizard casting, which may be overreaching, would you reccomend focussing more on wizard with limited emphasis on cleric? Perhaps:
LN Dual Talent Human Wizard/Cleric of Asmodeus:
Strength 7
Dexterity 10
Constitution 14
Intelligence 20
Wisdom 16
Charisma 7
With this you need not put any ability bonuses or magic items into raising wisdom at all, leave it purely as utility.
An interesting option.
Even though it "manifests as" augury, it's not a spell-like ability but a supernatural ability. So–sadly!–I don't think it will work to satisfy that requirement.
Damn! Good pick up. That build needs adjustment. Unfortunate, I liked the lore mystery.
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Yep, that seems good, though for this type of build I prefer:
Str: 7 Int: 19 Wis: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 16 Chr: 7
Get int up @ level 4; this assumes a "retirement" build, so @ level 12 you'll still have 22 Int for Eyes / Ruby Phoenix / RoTRL Part 4 and the high level mods.
8000 GP for a +2 Wis ioun stone "eventually" is not a bad deal, and the con will help you more early. Meanwhile Dex is very handy @ low levels, and reflex saves ARE more relevant than people give them credit for (as is init).
There's always the "In between", an Emberkin Aasimir Wizard / Oracle.
Str: 7 Int: 19 Wis: 10 Dex: 7 Con: 14 Chr: 18
That lets you dump dex and keep Cleric as "Flex buffing", while maintaining Wizard nearly on level. It gives you that Chr bonus to AC (greatly enhancing your AC). Your Divine 2nd levels aren't there until 6th, which is annoying, but you still have a full complement of wizard spells (at Sorc level).
Maybe this one?
Magical Knack trait for your preferred casting class to get back 2 caster levels.
Strength 8, Dexterity 10, Constitution 14, Intellect 12, Wisdom 18, Charisma 16 after racial adjustments
Level 1: Cleric with the Evangelist Archetype. Trickery domain for a level 2 arcane SLA. 1st level feat for Lingering Performance.
Level 2: Sorcerer with Empyreal bloodline for wisdom as casting stat
Level 3: Monk for wisdom to touch AC. Sohei archetype to always act in a surprise round. Bonus feat to snapping turtle style for additional AC. Level feat to Spellsong.
Level 4-12: Mystic Theurge with whatever metamagic feats tickle your fancy.
The goal here is to get as much out of wisdom as possible to make upgrading your casting with gear and spells as quick and cheap as possible. Intellect is boosted to 12 to get some much needed skill points and Charisma is used to get additional uses of Performance, which, combined with Lingering Performance and Spellsong, allow you to to maintain bardic performances during combat, concentrate on spells as a move action, and disguise spellcasting as a performance to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity or triggering readied actions against spellcasting. With both the full sorcerer and cleric spell lists available to you, you have a massive repertoire of healing and buffing spells, and given your abilities to avoid provoking attacks, always act in the surprise round, and occasionally not die due to buffed AC, you'll be very reliable in setting up these buffs for combat. Unfortunately, you'll never get channel energy, and you miss out on the familiar from the Arcane Bloodline.
had a look at Evangelist, with it not improving over time I'm not sure on its usefulness. Do you have a way to squeeze the most out of it?
Banner of Ancient Kings is a pricy (18000g) method of increasing your effective level for inspire courage by +4 to bring the bonus to +2. That's only one less than where evangelists inspire courage caps for PFS. That being said, the performance was mostly attractive due to the ability to disguise spellcasting to avoid being shut down or otherwise attacked.
That said, I would not take any levels of monk, nothing is worth losing caster levels for, especially in Theurges.
That's a fair decision. My reasoning was that as a buffing/support character, the caster levels would matter slightly less and could be partially overcome by taking Magical Knack for one of the two choice classes. My aim was not necessarily casting power, but versatility of the support that could be provided.
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Updating the Wiz/Cleric with a Thalin informed variant.
Moves away from human to aasimar, gains another domain,increased intelligence, aasimar traits and more rounded stats for the cost of lowered wisdom.
Strength 7
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 19
Wisdom 14
Charisma 9
Alternate Racial traits: Incorruptible (for Divine qualification)
1:Wiz : Conjuration/teleportation- familiar=Greensting Scorpion, (Scribe scroll into:Spell Focus: Conjuration), Augment Summoning
2:Wiz:
3: Cleric : Trickery (Qualify for Arcane), Travel domain, Superior Summoning
4: Theurge :
5: Theurge : Improved Initiative
6: Theurge :
7: Theurge : Dazing Spell
8: Theurge :
9: Theurge : Improved Familiar (Imp)
10: Theurge :
11: Theurge : Divine Interference
12: Theurge :
Honestly with the loss of lore oracle I'm growing more fond of Wiz/Cleric as an option by the minute, despite the mixed casting stats. The delay of sorcerors and oracles is starting to look painful.
Updating the Wiz/Cleric with a Thalin informed variant
I like it. If it were my character I would be grumpy for five minutes about the lower wisdom, but it definitely looks both playable and fun.
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@Angry Wiggles: you've got some interesting ideas here. But let me point out two points of interpretation of the rules that are at least debatable. I can see good arguments one way or the other, so I just want to flag these as potential problem areas.
#1 Copycat and the Trickery domain
Trickery domain for a level 2 arcane SLA
As I understand it, the argument that the Trickery domain's copycat ability provides a 2nd-level arcane spell-like ability (SLA) is based on reading the following FAQ:
Cleric domains, sorcerer bloodlines, wizard schools, and certain other class features give spell-like abilities that aren't based on spells. What's the effective spell level for these abilities?
The effective spell level for these spell-like abilities is equal to the highest-level spell that a character of that class could normally cast at the level the ability is gained.For example, a 1st-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental ray as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 1's highest-level spell available is 1st, that spell-like ability counts as a 1st-level spell. A 9th-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental blast as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 9's highest-level spell available is 4th, that spell-like ability counts as a 4th-level spell.
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/07/11
Since copycat, the argument goes, "create[s] an illusory double of yourself [... that] functions as a single mirror image," it must count as "based on" the mirror image spell. So, we go look at the universal monster rules (UMR) for SLAs and find that:
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
So if we look at the FAQ and lean on the "based on" language, we can turn copycat into a 2nd-level arcane SLA.
But that seems at least debatable, and I would be surprised if it were upheld were the Design Team to review it. It seems much more likely to me that "based on" means, per the UMR, "duplicates." It's a little strange, after all, that a deliberately weakened mirror-image-like effect would count as the same spell level! And it's hardly a strange use of "based on" to mean "duplicates", especially under the old understanding of SLAs that was operative at the time of that FAQ (that you see in the date-stamp).
Now, I don't want to get into a rules argument in this thread and I don't anticipate that I could be persuaded to the position that copycat counts as a 2nd-level arcane spell, so let's avoid that rabbit hole (or start a new thread to go down it), and let this stand simply as flagging the issue as at least debatable.
#2 Spellsong and Attacks of Opportunity (AOOs)
Spellsong, allow you to t[...] disguise spellcasting as a performance to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity [...]
I did some research on this a while back, had my hopes up for just what you're hoping for, and unfortunately I was forced to the conclusion that Spellsong does not allow you to avoid AOOs. Here's the post I wrote at the time raising the question, but here are the two reasons I suspect that you would still provoke while using Spellsong to disguise casting:
(i) The Perform check itself probably provokes – If you look at the "Actions in Combat" table in the Combat chapter, you'll see an entry for "Use a skill that takes 1 action." The table says that this "usually" provokes an AOO. So we have some reason to think that making the Perform check for Spellsong will provoke. But what makes the case, it seems to me, is the next point:
(ii) Attacks of Opportunity are not triggered by "spellcasting" but by "being distracted" – and you'd still be distracted while using Spellsong (NB you could still avoid readied "I'll attack if he casts a spell" actions). Consider the following quotations from the Attacks of Opportunity section in the Combat chapter:
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.
[...]
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
I'll spare you more quotations. I don't think the case is really controversial. Consider: this is why it requires a concentration check to cast on the defensive–you've got to try to continue paying enough attention to combat to defend yourself while performing the distracting act of casting a spell. More quotations to support the case can be found throughout the Combat chapter's discussion of AOOs, casting spells, and using SLAs, as well as in the Magic chapter (if I recall correctly).
Again, just want to flag that for the consideration of anyone reading this thread.
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---Snipped for length---
Those are excellent points. I hadn't considered them from that angle. I'm going to favorite your post for the purpose of taking it to a GM and/or a VC in my area and see how they feel about it. In the meantime, I'll adjust the build to avoid grey areas like this. Thanks for taking the time to point all this out to me.
I'll throw it in:
Samsaran Wiz/Cle Mystic Theurge. Know (almost) all the spells!
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If you're wanting to make a summon character who never runs out of spells, you are required to pick up sacred summons and be good-aligned. Standard action summoning to rule the world :).
Suprise round:
Sacred summon d3+1 lantern archons, order them to full attack. Doing it again next turn!
NB, if you want to summon Lantern Archons as a standard action via Sacred Summons, you need to worship a lawful good deity.
When using summon monster to summon creatures whose alignment subtype or subtypes exactly match your aura, you may cast the spell as a standard action instead of with a casting time of 1 round.And:
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).And:
LG Small outsider (archon, extraplanar, good, lawful)