We had a recent pvp tourney and I ran into some broken builds. Curious as to what this board can come up with.
1 Trait
Core Races
All paizo Classes
500 starting gold.
All first party stuff as far as feats and Traits go.
Archetypes are good.
The arena and starting distance is super important. Any details on those?
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A witch with the Slumber hex, Ability Focus, a maxed-out Int, and a scythe would be my first guess, especially if it's one-on-one fights in a fixed arena. "Sorry Mr. Fighter, looks like you failed that DC 17 Will save at 1st level. Naptime for you. *schlork*"
Arenas were somewhat random. Like they had made 8 or so arenas for different types. I.e a few arenas for 1v1, 2v2, ffa, 3v3, Grand melee.
25 point buy btw. Forgot to mention that in the opening post.
So at first level all you've really done is determined who had more luck rolling dice. What did this PvP session hope to accomplish?
Arenas were somewhat random. Like they had made 8 or so arenas for different types. I.e a few arenas for 1v1, 2v2, ffa, 3v3, Grand melee.
25 point buy btw. Forgot to mention that in the opening post.
The witch build mentioned upthread is good. Also, going for a pet class works well as you can avoid the glass cannon cheese for at least 1 round. I wouldn't go synthesist, since the action economy of having another body on the battlefield is more important.
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Also, the number of expendables you can buy and how much time you can spend pre-buffing makes a huge difference (e.g. a PC pre-buffed with a potion or scroll of Invisibility has a huge advantage over someone who's not).
P.S. Can I spend my 500 gp on 20 guard dogs? ;-)
So at first level all you've really done is determined who had more luck rolling dice. What did this PvP session hope to accomplish?
Theorycrafting?
I like the fact that this sort of thing shows the glaring weakness of level 1 play (I'm a level 3 - 12 partisan myself).
We had fun with more people then the typical DND game?
We drank and talked smack with our characters?
We had fun?
Regardless i see that this is not your preferred avenue so i would suggest that you avoid clicking topic titles that seem "WRONGBADFUN" to you in the future.
Above post is for Simon.
No prebuffing although the eidolon started in play if you were a summoner.
No magic items so it was mostly character builds and hilarious one trick ponies and dice rolls.
We had fun with more people then the typical DND game?
We drank and talked smack with our characters?
We had fun?
Regardless i see that this is not your preferred avenue so i would suggest that you avoid clicking topic titles that seem "WRONGBADFUN" to you in the future.
If you're responding to me, I don't see the need to get nasty. All I asked was a simple question. If you enjoyed yourselves, more power to you.
At first level the only thing you can tell in any PvP situation is who is luckier with the dice. Someone could have made a dex heavy rogue, won initiative, and killed the other person in one round just as easily as a witch could have had a failed save against slumber.
Also, the number of expendables you can buy and how much time you can spend pre-buffing makes a huge difference (e.g. a PC pre-buffed with a potion or scroll of Invisibility has a huge advantage over someone who's not).
P.S. Can I spend my 500 gp on 20 guard dogs? ;-)
We had a guy who spent all his gold on squirrels. and then ran in a corner with a crossbow. It was our Comic Relief round.
The Rich Parents trait seems like a no-brainer. For 1400 gp, you can get a pretty nice scroll (e.g. Cloudkill, Summon Monster V, Hungry Pit). Just try to pump your initiative up as high as you can and hope you don't fail the activation check!
Or you could just stick with the tried and true 56 guard dogs. ;-)
The Rich Parents trait seems like a no-brainer. For 1400 gp, you can get a pretty nice scroll (e.g. Cloudkill, Summon Monster V, Hungry Pit). Just try to pump your initiative up as high as you can and hope you don't fail the activation check!
Or you could just stick with the tried and true 56 guard dogs. ;-)
Your starting cash increases to 900 gp.
"increase to" not "increases by"
Oops. You'll have to stick with lame stuff like Enervation or Black Tentacles instead.
Mounts are always handy too, in my experience.
A level 1 human Order of the Sword Cavalier can reach Are You Kidding Me, Really levels of damage (+9 to hit, 1d8+11x2/x4) pretty easily.
A level 1 human Order of the Sword Cavalier can reach Are You Kidding Me, Really levels of damage (+9 to hit, 1d8+11x2/x4) pretty easily.
Thats what won the grand melee.
+
Camel Spit.
A human monk MOMS could have Crane Wing at 1 and negate a lot of other martials that level. Of course it's stopped by anyone with a pet, natural attacks, or plain ol' casters.
It's not a legitimate analysis, because the game was never intended, designed, nor balanced, for PVP. (World of Warcraft is a very good example of the complexity of the issues involved in trying to balance classes for PVP and PVE.) It was designed as an exercise in cooperative play. There is something called Conflict I think, I don't recall whether it's a D20 or Pathfinder based product but it incorporates a book of rules changes for those who are into that sort of thing.So at first level all you've really done is determined who had more luck rolling dice. What did this PvP session hope to accomplish?Theorycrafting?
I like the fact that this sort of thing shows the glaring weakness of level 1 play (I'm a level 3 - 12 partisan myself).
I disagree, since NPCs with PC or NPC class levels are perfectly acceptable level 1 adversaries. CR 1 and CR 1/2 creatures, likewise, bring up the same problem. I don't see how this sort of PvP is mechanically different from encounters at APL 1.
I disagree, since NPCs with PC or NPC class levels are perfectly acceptable level 1 adversaries. CR 1 and CR 1/2 creatures, likewise, bring up the same problem. I don't see how this sort of PvP is mechanically different from encounters at APL 1.It's not a legitimate analysis, because the game was never intended, designed, nor balanced, for PVP. (World of Warcraft is a very good example of the complexity of the issues involved in trying to balance classes for PVP and PVE.) It was designed as an exercise in cooperative play. There is something called Conflict I think, I don't recall whether it's a D20 or Pathfinder based product but it incorporates a book of rules changes for those who are into that sort of thing.So at first level all you've really done is determined who had more luck rolling dice. What did this PvP session hope to accomplish?Theorycrafting?
I like the fact that this sort of thing shows the glaring weakness of level 1 play (I'm a level 3 - 12 partisan myself).
So if you had a rogue with a longspear crit for 37 points of damage on the first round would you determine that the rogue is broken for being able to do so much or awesome for being able to do so much?
So if you had a rogue with a longspear crit for 37 points of damage on the first round would you determine that the rogue is broken for being able to do so much or awesome for being able to do so much?I disagree, since NPCs with PC or NPC class levels are perfectly acceptable level 1 adversaries. CR 1 and CR 1/2 creatures, likewise, bring up the same problem. I don't see how this sort of PvP is mechanically different from encounters at APL 1.It's not a legitimate analysis, because the game was never intended, designed, nor balanced, for PVP. (World of Warcraft is a very good example of the complexity of the issues involved in trying to balance classes for PVP and PVE.) It was designed as an exercise in cooperative play. There is something called Conflict I think, I don't recall whether it's a D20 or Pathfinder based product but it incorporates a book of rules changes for those who are into that sort of thing.So at first level all you've really done is determined who had more luck rolling dice. What did this PvP session hope to accomplish?Theorycrafting?
I like the fact that this sort of thing shows the glaring weakness of level 1 play (I'm a level 3 - 12 partisan myself).
A strawman appears! (It should also be noted I never used the term 'broken'; I was pointing out that PvP at 1st level is not fundamentally dissimilar to adventuring as suggested by LazarX).
No. My problem is a CR 1/3 Orc has a good chance of taking out many 1st level 1 PCs with a single hit (9 average damage). Level 1 play is way too swingy/random.
A strawman appears! (It should also be noted I never used the term 'broken'; I was pointing out that PvP at 1st level is not fundamentally dissimilar to adventuring as suggested by LazarX).
No. My problem is a CR 1/3 Orc has a good chance of taking out many 1st level 1 PCs with a single hit (9 average damage). Level 1 play is way too swingy/random.
Strawman? Read the post title.
Edit: Also, you just made my point. Level 1 combat only shows who's luckier with the dice.
Any class with Summon Monster IV on the class spell list and wand with a single charge (420g?). Dexterity, Improved Initiative, and Reactionary to go first. Use the wand to summon something appropriate, then run. Come back later to claim victory and spoils.
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I'd go for Dwarven Barbarian personnaly.
Str: 18
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 18
Chr: 5
Steely Soul 1st level feat. Gives me +6 total will against most save or die casters (+8 if raging), and I'd have 16 hp vs fighting types. Rage with Greatsword would do 2d6 + 9 at +7 to hit (d6+9 chucking spears if they get out of range), which makes me a 1-hit killer for any other 1st levelers.
AC: 16. HP: 16. 2d6 + 9 damage.
Really it just comes down to what 1-turn kill you go for; save-or-die, big slash, etc. This guy would just have the highest likelyhood of surviving someone else's 1-turn kill, with great saves and a 1-turn kill of his own.
Managing first level play is a two way street. It's all about the DM and his players. Is first level play risky? Sure it is... but the bulk of players seem to get through it just fine. If anything, High level play is much more of a rocket tag game than first.
In low level games I have been in, I suspect a lot of DM fudging to get people to survive by the book APL balanced encounters.
In low level games I have run, there was a high attrition rate. Now I only start games at level 3.
High level play is very problematic, I agree with that. Of course, what exactly constitutes high level play differs from person to person. Personally, I feel the game starts seriously breaking down at level 12 which is why I cap things there.
Like I've always said to my players. "I'm not trying to kill your characters, the monsters are." Those who don't see the subtle but important difference, have a problem. It's not DM vs. Players in a proper game, so it's not PVP. It's knowing when your monsters should be smart and optimised and when they shouldn't be. Not every grunt should be Captain America.... that's what the PCs are for.I disagree, since NPCs with PC or NPC class levels are perfectly acceptable level 1 adversaries. CR 1 and CR 1/2 creatures, likewise, bring up the same problem. I don't see how this sort of PvP is mechanically different from encounters at APL 1.It's not a legitimate analysis, because the game was never intended, designed, nor balanced, for PVP. (World of Warcraft is a very good example of the complexity of the issues involved in trying to balance classes for PVP and PVE.) It was designed as an exercise in cooperative play. There is something called Conflict I think, I don't recall whether it's a D20 or Pathfinder based product but it incorporates a book of rules changes for those who are into that sort of thing.So at first level all you've really done is determined who had more luck rolling dice. What did this PvP session hope to accomplish?Theorycrafting?
I like the fact that this sort of thing shows the glaring weakness of level 1 play (I'm a level 3 - 12 partisan myself).
Sure, but a squad of 4 level 1 warriors who confront the 4 PCs shouldn't be terribly different in mentality than the PCs. They want to survive the fight, they have an enemy to kill, they should employ tactics, etc.,
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1) Sleep can drop the entire opposition if all roll poorly.
2) barbarians will auto-drop most opponents.
3) Lance charges will auto-drop most opponents.
4) Rapid-shot/Flurry/TWF will drop most double-tapped opponents.
I'd go with an elf paladin on warhorse: he'll be immune to Sleep or Slumber and have a racial defense against other magic.
Basically just tank and kill with four attacks vs any adjacent. Feat: Mounted Combat.
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A level 1 human Order of the Sword Cavalier can reach Are You Kidding Me, Really levels of damage (+9 to hit, 1d8+11x2/x4) pretty easily.
Gendarme is the (only?) cavalier route to three feats at 1st level (for Spirited Charge), but you need four feats to pull off the -1att/+6dmg 2h Power Attack/Spirited Charge lance exploit....
...not seeing how x4 comes about at 1st (unless we're talking unlikely crits).
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Not all samurai are honorable, because not all "samurai" are samurai....
STR+20 INT:08
DEX:12 WIS:10
CON:18 CHA:07
Race: half-orc
Trait: Berserker of the Society
Class: Barbarian [Mounted Fury], Rage rounds: 9
Feat: Power Attack
Skills: Perception +4, Ride +5, Handle Animal +2
Equipment: Heavy War Horse (300), Four-mirror armor (45), Kikko barding (120), lance (10), greatclub (free), club (free)
AC: 17/15 raging, 12/10 touch, 17/15 flat; +4 (use mount as cover)
AC (mount): 20
HP 17, 19 raging (subtract 1hp is wish extra round rage instead)
Move: 30
Move (mount): 60
Rules Exploit: most of these one-off tourneys feature free healing; all that matters is being the last person standing in your contest. The Orc ferocity traits basically gives you an extra turn after going negative, meaning you have another chance to crush your opponent and THEN drop. So, no worries if you roll lousy in the first round and then the enemy gets a crit good enough to put you under zero.
Damage: enough to splatter anything in one hit....
Raging charge Power Attack bonus: 5+2(STR+rage)+2(charge)-1(PA)+1(mounted) = +9
Raging charge Power Attack two-handed lance damage: 2x[1d8+7(STR)+3(2H)+3(2hPA)] = ~35 (28 minimum)
...with 19hp, the ability to auto-slay *anything* we hit on a charge, a mount with AC which makes attacking it impractical, and the ability to keep chugging after a wound grievous enough to drop anyone else, basically the only melee build which stands a change is our doppelganger.
Heavy War Horse:
N Large animal
Init +4; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
Defense
AC 15 (20 in barding), touch 11, flat-footed 9 (14 barding) (+4 Dex, +2 NA, –1 size)
hp 19 (2d8+10)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
Offense
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +6 (1d4+5), 2 hooves +6 (1d6+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Statistics
Str 20, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 17, Cha 11
Base Atk +1; CMB +7; CMD 21 (25 vs. trip)
Feats Endurance, RunB
Skills Acrobatics +4 (jump +16), Perception +8
SQ: Combat Trained
A level 1 human Order of the Sword Cavalier can reach Are You Kidding Me, Really levels of damage (+9 to hit, 1d8+11x2/x4) pretty easily.Gendarme is the (only?) cavalier route to three feats at 1st level (for Spirited Charge), but you need four feats to pull off the -1att/+6dmg 2h Power Attack/Spirited Charge lance exploit....
...not seeing how x4 comes about at 1st (unless we're talking unlikely crits).
Lances always deal double damage on a charge, and do x3 damage on a (non-charge) critical. The posted math was for a charge, so x2 normal, x4 critical. That's not including Spirited Charge. The feats I chose for this build were Power Attack and Furious Focus. At some point I'll stat the character up at level 7, with Spirited Charge for x3/x5 while riding a tyrannosaurus (Beast Rider archetype). PFS friendly, too!
Grapple build could pose a serious threat, but I would bet on the barbarian for melee.
What about small sylvan sorcerer on a roc? Fly up, really, really high, buff your roc somehow, cast feather fall and let your roc kill something while you are falling!