I aim to please, and really who hasn't wanted to play a character who turns into a bear riding a massive tiger into combat.
Dotting for art related stuffs.
As a note for the Delphine Desperado, it is a somewhat simplistic setup. Gains a battered gun and grit pool, swaps out certain levels of mystery spells for gun related ones, and has the option for replacing revelations with deeds.I'm going to throw this down here now before i post the MCA tomorrow.
Sacred Gunsmith: This functions exactly as the gunsmith Gunslinger class feature, save for the following. If you're battered firearm gains the broken condition, you gain a -2 penalty to caster level till its fixed. This replaces curse.
This is kinda iffy as to whether it conveys enough of a bonus to be worth a loss of a scaling curse.
Just on the naming front - any chance we could go with Sacred Gunner or similar? I get the Delphic reference, but IMHO it's too real-world evocative and specific, and Delphine is also a name.
I'm also not a huge fan of desperado, unless your MCA is an outlaw or similar...Apart from that, carry on!!!
Admittedly now i want to do a witch/gunslinger, but i suppose i should get the 2 i got written up evaluated first.
As a heads up, there IS a witch/gunslinger placeholder for a fairly comprehensive treatment that appeared first on GitP and then here in the previous thread. So unless you have a remarkably fresh take on the mix, maybe leave it.
There's probably room for a Gunslinger/Witch though... ;)
As a note for the Delphine Desperado, it is a somewhat simplistic setup. Gains a battered gun and grit pool, swaps out certain levels of mystery spells for gun related ones, and has the option for replacing revelations with deeds.I'm going to throw this down here now before i post the MCA tomorrow.
Sacred Gunsmith: This functions exactly as the gunsmith Gunslinger class feature, save for the following. If you're battered firearm gains the broken condition, you gain a -2 penalty to caster level till its fixed. This replaces curse.
This is kinda iffy as to whether it conveys enough of a bonus to be worth a loss of a scaling curse.Just on the naming front - any chance we could go with Sacred Gunner or similar? I get the Delphic reference, but IMHO it's too real-world evocative and specific, and Delphine is also a name.
I'm also not a huge fan of desperado, unless your MCA is an outlaw or similar...Apart from that, carry on!!!
noted
Admittedly now i want to do a witch/gunslinger, but i suppose i should get the 2 i got written up evaluated first.As a heads up, there IS a witch/gunslinger placeholder for a fairly comprehensive treatment that appeared first on GitP and then here in the previous thread. So unless you have a remarkably fresh take on the mix, maybe leave it.
There's probably room for a Gunslinger/Witch though... ;)
alrighty then, hex-gun it is then
'Desperado' is being used as the name for the Gunslinger/Bard. That doesn't exclude it from being used elsewhere, of course, but bear it in mind!
Will pick one of these new MCA's to go over and probably tear apart tomorrow. >;D
Lots of activity since I was last here.
1- Is there anything left to be done on Runeforged Warrior?
2- That whole discussion/argument/brainstorm with Vincent's idea makes me want to make a wizard who does nothing but take Evolved Familiar as his bonus feats and just make a whacky mutated sparrow >8D
3- If Runeforged Warrior IS ready to go the distance, here's my next Shtick, ready to be poked at with a stick. ** spoiler omitted **...
Hate to tell you Iorthol, but there is already a Druid/Wizard (Spellfused Warden) and there's already an MCA called the Elemental Savant (Elemental Savant)
Hate to tell you Iorthol, but there is already a Druid/Wizard (Spellfused Warden) and there's already an MCA called the Elemental Savant (Elemental Savant)
Definitely needs a name change, but it does seem distinctly different enough from the Spellfused Warden to merit a place on the wiki, if not the PDF...what you think El?
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alrighty then, hex-gun it is thenAdmittedly now i want to do a witch/gunslinger, but i suppose i should get the 2 i got written up evaluated first.As a heads up, there IS a witch/gunslinger placeholder for a fairly comprehensive treatment that appeared first on GitP and then here in the previous thread. So unless you have a remarkably fresh take on the mix, maybe leave it.
There's probably room for a Gunslinger/Witch though... ;)
I always liked "witch sniper." Credit for the name goes to China Mieville, of course. I always thought it sounded cool.
EL: Yeah I saw the Spellfused Warden and as OSW said, it's pretty stinkin different :P
I didn't realize there was already an elemental savant. (Is their 9th level supposed to be dead? I couldn't find any ability scaling on 9th, not even spell level)
Gosh I can't think of anything without the term elemental in the name. Though the original idea was Shaman something.
I guess since they're dealing with Arcane Divine and the 4 base elements perhaps we could call it the Essentia Shaman.
I tried to make a clear enough work around to still have 2 spellcasting progressions but without so many spells per day that it was unbalanced.
The spontaneous spellcasting feature is very droppable, and it may be a good idea to specify when the school and domain abilities happen.
I wasn't really thinking about it when I wrote it up.
Essentia Shaman.
I like the ring of that. I had been playing a lot of Thaumcraft lately so the whole idea of base elements to the world is a pleasant thought.
Or Quintessence Shaman. Trying saying that 3 times fast.
On another note, would it require much work to write an Unholy Rager? (Antipaladin rewrite for Holy Rager)
I have an interest in making as a character or NPC. The idea of an unhinged minion of Rovagug is delightful to me.
On that note I've been racking my brain trying to think of how to combine things in order to come up with a super dark brutal savage that oozes necromatic magic. My first thought was a barbar antipaladin mixer but the whole knight in douchebaggy armor wasn't working for my mental image, and without any other evil aligned classes to look at I got stumped.
I'm looking for that kind of black magic swamp savage. Maybe witch?
Something decidedly evil. Especially for necromancy stuff. I wish Pathfinder had an update for the Dread Necromancer. That would be wicked.
Hurr :B Wicked.
But yeah, if yall don't want Another druid/wizzy I'd like to get workin on the haste/teleportation warrior anyway.
I really like the Runic Berserker, so I decided to make a character and share him with yall~
One of the inspirations for this was how the Ogre Hook looks kind of like a crooked wizard staff.
Ogre Hook
Wizard Staff
It just seemed like the perfect Runic Berserker weapon to me, not to mention the fact that he's a half-ogre... >:3
Helndar Hurnrikson
The Shimmering Winds Clan-- Located in the low mountains of Arcdale, this large bodied clan consisting of a long line of ogreblooded humans, practices a traditional huntergather barbarian lifestyle, with an added twist. Where most Arcdale tribes practice divine or druidic magic as their ancient ways of choice, the Shimmering Winds practice arcane and runic magics. Rules equally by their Elder, Chief, and Shaman, the Shimmering Winds have a strong presense in the low mountains.
Helndar Hurnrikson, child of Shaman Hurnrik Adderikson, was born into a family blessed with many strong bodied boys. He, along with his 2 older brothers, and 2 younger brothers, were taught the traditional shamans magic that belonged in their family line among the tribe. Customs dictated that the eldest son would hold the position of Shaman, so it was that Helndar held no illusion that he had a place in his tribe that was special or important. The middle son, he felt the need to strike out and find his own value among the tribal lands.
He knew of marauding fel beasts in the crags and cliffs of the low mountains, endangering his people's hunters and gatherers, as well as slaughtering tradesmen from other tribes and more distant towns and cities. Helndar set off on his own to defeat as many beasts as he came across, but only after several tendays on his own, he had come across a dozen of these beasts, and in these battles had saved more people than he had ever done studying the runes and tending to the shamanson duties. He returned home, to proclaim his many victories over the beasts, and also to bid his home farewell.
There's level 1-5 give or take. I haven't come up with accomplished adventuring backstory yet but this should give you an idea.
Character Sheet
Yay got access to WIFI, warning i did warn it was simplistic
Some see the rise in firearms as a the natural progression of warfare. For the Gun Prophet however, Firearms are expressions of a new age. Empowered by this recognition, they use firearms as a symbol for a new age. In fact they tie their very powers to their guns.
Primary: Oracle
Secondary: Gunslinger
Good saves: Reflex and Will
skills 4 + int
Class skills: In addition to the oracle class list, the Gun Prophet may select 3 skills from the gunslinger's skill list and add it to their own as class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Gun Prophet's are proficient with all simple weapons, all Firearms, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Some oracle revelations grant additional proficiencies.
Gunsmith: As the Gunslinger class ability. In addition When her Battered firearm gains the broken condition, she takes a -2 penalty to her caster level until it's repaired. This replaces the Curse Class Feature.
Divine Grit: As the gunslinger grit class feature, except the Gun Prophet uses her charisma modifier to determine her grit pool, and only gains access to a single deed available to a 1st level gunslinger. This replaces the 1st level Revelation
Gun Spells: Replace the corresponding mystery spells with the following spells at the relevant levels.
1st Abundant Ammunition, 2nd Reloading Hands, 3rd Flash Fire, 4th Named Bullet, 6th Named Bullet, Greater
Way of the Gun: A Gun Prophet may select a gunslinger deed in place of any revelation she learns. Her Gun Prophet level counts as gunslinger levels for the purposes of which deeds she can select.
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So I don't know when I'll have the opportunity to connect my laptop again I am going to leave the Monk/Wizard here. I don't expect it to get evaluated until the Gun Prophet does, but I feel I shouldn't waste the opportunity.
A path invented previously by the brightest of elves centuries ago, the Intellectual Ascetic is a monk who uses a combination of mental prowess and physical conditioning to access an internal reservoir of arcane power. Unlike the Magus, the Intellectual Ascetic doesn't just seek to blend magic and combat, but to improve themselves as well. In the Golarion setting, such a process would be invented by elves pursuing the “Brightness”.
Primary Class: Monk
Secondary Class: Wizard
2 skill points per level
Skills: In addition to the monk skill list, you may also add three wizard skills added to your list.
Unarmed Strike: An Intellectual Ascetic uses his monk level -2 to determine his unarmed strike damage (minimum monk level 1)
Kung-Fu Genius: An Intellectual Ascetic gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name (Core Rulebook 382), save that he is not required to wield a weapon to gain it's benefits. This bonus to AC also applies to touch and flat-footed AC. This replaces the AC bonus class feature.
Stunning Fist: An Intellectual Ascetic uses his Intelligence Bonus in place of his Wisdom Bonus to determine his Stunning Fist DC. This modifies Stunning Fist.
Ki pool: An Intellectual Ascetic uses his intelligence bonus in place of his wisdom bonus to determine his ki pool. This modifies the Ki Pool class feature.
Ki Spell: At 4th ,5th,7th,11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level An Intellectual Ascetic can select a 1st level spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list to cast as a spell-like ability using a standard action, with a caster level equal to his Intellectual Ascetic level. In addition, he must select a focused school and a neglected school. When selecting spells to learn of the focused school, the Intellectual Ascetic may treat them as one level lower(minimum 1). Likewise when the Intellectual Ascetic are selecting spells of the neglected school to learn, you must treat them as one level higher. He must spend ki equal to the level of the spell to perform this action. At 7th and 11th he may select a 2nd level spell. At 12th and 13th he may select a 3rd level spell. At 15th and 17th level he may select a 4th level spell. At 19th level he may select a 5th level spell. This replaces slow fall, high jump, wholeness of body, diamond body, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, and empty body.
Ki Magic Master: The Intellectual Ascetic treats all spell-like abilities granted by the Ki Spell Class Feature as Empowered, as if he had the Empower Spell-like ability monster feat. In addition he may Quicken his spell-like abilities (as if he had Quicken Spell-like Ability as a bonus feat), a number of times per day equal to his Intelligence Modifier. This replaces Perfect Self.
I apologize if this is inconvenient.
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Yay got access to WIFI, warning i did warn it was simplistic
** spoiler omitted **
Simplistic is almost an understatement here... There's just not enough here to really evaluate. I would suggest that you look through the Oracle Mysteries and choose one or two (or three) that you think would work well with a gunslinging-type theme, and build some new revelations that use guns based on the revelations in those Mysteries. Even try to figure out a curse that would work thematically for what you're trying to do here.
If you can come up with a good theme that uses the mechanics of the Oracle and Gunslinger together, then we'd have somewhere to go.
Noted though if i were to go the mystery route i might as well just make the whole thing a mystery instead of an archetype. Gonna need help on filling the gaps on bonus spells.
Would a curse that prevents the reduction of misfire chance and increases all misfire chances by one be reasonable? I think a good starting benefit is the ability to use your current firearm as a divine focus. It cannot function as a divine focus if having the broken condition.
I'm gonna step in and say I really like the Gun Prophet. Simple is sometimes good :)
While I think it needs a bit more, I agree with Flak on the simple.
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I'm gonna step in and say I really like the Gun Prophet. Simple is sometimes good :)
I agree that sometimes simple is good, but I do feel like this one could use some more flavor. Really, the abilities that Toaster suggested are all things that have been done before on other classes or archetypes, and it's a very small list on top of that.
@Toaster: I do think that the curse is a good start (although I don't think Oracles need a divine focus, so you might want another benefit)
A flavorful curse with appropriate benefits would be nice, yes, and I look forward to seeing how that shapes up. But I don't think the archetype needs much more than that, if anything. (Well, an editing pass-through, but yeah.)
A flavorful curse with appropriate benefits would be nice, yes, and I look forward to seeing how that shapes up. But I don't think the archetype needs much more than that, if anything. (Well, an editing pass-through, but yeah.)
ok then, will incorporate that battered gun idea with the given curse ideas.
Why don't we do this?
Some see the rise in firearms as a natural progression of warfare. For the gun prophet however, firearms are an expression of a new age. Empowered by this recognition, gin prophets use firearms as a symbol for a new age. In fact they tie their very powers to their guns.
Primary: Oracle.
Secondary: Gunslinger.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The gun prophet may select three gunslinger skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal oracle class skills. The gun prophet gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The gun prophet proficient with all simple weapons, all firearms, with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). Some oracle revelations grant additional proficiencies.
Prophet’s Curse (Ex): A gun prophet is cursed for her use of firearms. This is exactly like the oracle’s curse ability, but she also gains the gunslinger’s gunsmith ability and takes a –2 penalty to her caster level whenever her gun gained at 1st level gains the broken condition. This penalty is removed once the gun is repaired.
Divine Grit (Ex): At 1st level, a gun prophet gains the gunslinger’s grit ability, but uses her Charisma modifier to determine her number of grit points. This ability replaces the revelation gained at 1st level.
Mystery of the Gun: A gun prophet combines mysticism with the cold hard steel of firearms. This ability is exactly like the oracle’s mystery ability except for the following changes. A gun prophet replaces associated bonus spells granted by his mystery with the following spells: abundant ammunition (2nd), reloading hands (4th), flash fire (6th), named bullet (8th), named bullet, greater (12th).
At 3rd level, a gun prophet can select a deed from the gunslinger’s list of 1st level deeds in place of a revelation. At 7th level and every four levels thereafter, she can select a deed from each subsequent level of deeds or lower in place of a revelation, up to 15th level deeds.
Another option would be to leave Mystery alone and just add the gun-related spells to the mystery. Then go diminished spellcasting and then give the following ability.
Deeds: At 3rd level, a gun prophet gains the gunslinger’s deeds ability, and chooses two 1st level deeds. At 5th level and every four levels thereafter, she can select two deeds from each subsequent level of deeds, up to 15th level deeds at 17th level. This ability replaces spell lost due to diminished spellcasting.
Now, not sure if we would want go with just diminished per day, or both diminished per day and known if we go that route? Perhaps both.
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Why don't we do this?
** spoiler omitted **...
The way you have worded the Curse, if the gunslinger just bought a new gun and didn't use the gun she gained at first level, there's no penalty. That should be fixed to be when using ANY firearm.
I still think this is too simplistic, with too little flavor, but if others disagree then that's fine.
Well i am working on a gun specific curse that uses the previous method plus scaling abilities. Like many curses it can be circumvented but all its benefits directly affect the battered firearm so you would be missing out. Also added in that the misfire chance cannot be reduced to less than one. I am calling it the gunbound curse, and its going to be open to other types of oracle.
Sounds good Toaster.
Looking at Intellectual Ascetic, just wondering if we would be able to swap all those abilties for the paladin spell progression table, an illuminated spell book, and a reduced rate of gaining new spells.
Looking at Intellectual Ascetic, just wondering if we would be able to swap all those abilties for the paladin spell progression table, an illuminated spell book, and a reduced rate of gaining new spells.
if you guys feel its a better fit, then by all means.
Ok 1st draft on the curse
Gunbound: the oracle gains a battered firearm. This functions exactly like the Gunslinger's gunsmith class ability, save for the following. When her battered firearm gains the broken condition, she takes a -2 penalty to caster level till its repaired. In addition the Oracle cannot lower the misfire chance to less than 1. When wielding her battered firearm, the oracle may treat it as a divine focus for the purposes of her oracle spellcasting. At 5th level, the oracle adds half her charisma modifier to her battered gun damage rolls. At 10th level, She may use her full charisma modifier instead. At 15th level, she no longer receives a -2 caster penalty when her battered firearm has the broken condition, in addition she may reroll a misfire chance with her battered firearm once per day.
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How...I mean...I..How have I never seen these threads before? I just downloaded "Divine Champions". I am absolutely blown away.
Welcome DMCal! Glad you like our work. be sure to check out the rest at our wiki site listed at the start of this thread.
I hope you don't mind, but seeing the trench fighter archetype in the latest Reign of Winter book has inspired me to try to combine the fighter and gunslinger into a MCA. Though this was done over my lunch break yesterday, so it might be pretty rough and still needs some custom deeds added.
Primary Class: Fighter.
Secondary Class: Gunslinger.
Hit Dice: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The trench infantryman may select three gunslinger skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal fighter class skills. The trench infantryman gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The trench infantryman is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all firearms. They are proficient with all light armor.
Gunsmith: At 1st level trench infantryman gains the gunslinger’s gunsmith ability. This ability and grit replace bravery
Bonus Feats: This functions as the fighter class ability, except that a trench infantryman may also select grit feats.
Deeds: At 2nd level, a trench infantryman gains the gunslinger’s deeds ability, and gains access to 1st level deeds. Every four levels beyond 2nd, the trench infantryman gains access each subsequent level of deeds (3rd, 7th, etc.), up to 15th level deeds at 18th level. This ability replaces the bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level.
Grit: At 2nd level the trench infantryman gains the gunslinger’s grit ability. This ability and gunsmith replace bravery.
Weapon training: At 3rd level and every four levels thereafter, the trench infantryman gains the fighter’s weapon training feature. This ability replaces Armor Training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Trench Warfare: Starting at 5th level, a trench infantryman can select one specific type of firearm (such as a machine gun, revolver, or rifle). He gains a bonus equal to his Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Every 4 levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the trench fighter picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well. Furthermore, when behind partial, normal, or improved cover, a trench fighter gains an additional +2 AC bonus from the cover. This replaces Weapon Training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Creator's Note: The trench fighter archetype swaps Armor Training for Trench Warfare, but as I didn't want to give this class Dex to damage with firearms before the gunslinger I thought gaining Weapon Training at 3rd level, similar to the weapon master archetype, could work. However in a "Guns Everywhere" setting I'd switch these, see my other note at the end.
Cover Mastery: At 19th level, a trench infantryman may treat cover as one step greater. Partial cover is treated as normal cover, and normal cover is treated as improved cover. This ability replaces armor mastery.
Master Infantryman: At 20th, a master infantryman chooses firearm, any attacks made with that firearm automatically confirm all critical threats. In addition he selects one deed, he can perform this deed for 1 grit point fewer (minimum 0) than usual. If the number of grit points to perform a deed is reduced to 0, the gunslinger can perform this deed as long as he has at least 1 grit point. If a deed could already be performed as long as he had at least 1 grit point, he can now perform that deed even when he has no grit points. This ability replaces weapon mastery.
Table: Trench Infantryman
Class Base Fort Ref Will
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Bonus feat, gunsmith
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Deeds (1st), grit
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Weapon training
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Trench warfare
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Deeds (3rd)
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Weapon training
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Trench warfare
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Deeds (7th)
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Weapon training
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Trench warfare
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Deeds (11th)
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Weapon training
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Trench warfare
18th +18/+8/+13/+3 +11 +11 +6 Deeds (15th)
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Cover mastery
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Bonus feat, master infantryman
Creator's Note: If this archetype is used in a “Guns Everywhere” setting (such as Earth), remove the gunsmith ability at 1st level and you instead gain Trench Warfare starting at 3rd level (thus it replaces Armor Training) and Weapon Training starting at 5th level (thus it does not replace anything).
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Ok 1st draft on the curse
Gunbound: the oracle gains a battered firearm. This functions exactly like the Gunslinger's gunsmith class ability, save for the following. When her battered firearm gains the broken condition, she takes a -2 penalty to caster level till its repaired. In addition the Oracle cannot lower the misfire chance to less than 1. When wielding her battered firearm, the oracle may treat it as a divine focus for the purposes of her oracle spellcasting. At 5th level, the oracle adds half her charisma modifier to her battered gun damage rolls. At 10th level, She may use her full charisma modifier instead. At 15th level, she no longer receives a -2 caster penalty when her battered firearm has the broken condition, in addition she may reroll a misfire chance with her battered firearm once per day.
Great job on the curse, Toaster! I think it really fits and makes the archetype more valuable.
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I hope you don't mind, but seeing the trench fighter archetype in the latest Reign of Winter book has inspired me to try to combine the fighter and gunslinger into a MCA. Though this was done over my lunch break yesterday, so it might be pretty rough and still needs some custom deeds added.
** spoiler omitted **...
This is a well-done writeup, though I don't know if machine guns exist in Pathfinder RPG. This MCA would also work well in a d20 modern type setting, though, which is great.
This is a well-done writeup, though I don't know if machine guns exist in Pathfinder RPG. This MCA would also work well in a d20 modern type setting, though, which is great.I hope you don't mind, but seeing the trench fighter archetype in the latest Reign of Winter book has inspired me to try to combine the fighter and gunslinger into a MCA. Though this was done over my lunch break yesterday, so it might be pretty rough and still needs some custom deeds added.
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks! Though I should mention I took the Trench Warfare ability from the trench fighter archetype. Both it and the mechanics for machine guns (& flamethrowers) are in the latest adventure path (#71: Rasputin Must Die!).
I hope you don't mind, but seeing the trench fighter archetype in the latest Reign of Winter book has inspired me to try to combine the fighter and gunslinger into a MCA. Though this was done over my lunch break yesterday, so it might be pretty rough and still needs some custom deeds added.
** spoiler omitted **...
Overall this looks very well done, especially for your first MCA. 2 things I did notice were weapon training stacking with trench warfare, this strikes me as unbalanced as you are getting extra damage added from 2 different sources in the same class. Second was that grit and gunsmith are worth more than bravery. Perhaps limit the trench fighter to only know some as opposed to all deeds.
Overall this looks very well done, especially for your first MCA. 2 things I did notice were weapon training stacking with trench warfare, this strikes me as unbalanced as you are getting extra damage added from 2 different sources in the same class. Second was that grit and gunsmith are worth more than bravery. Perhaps limit the trench fighter to only know some as opposed to all deeds.I hope you don't mind, but seeing the trench fighter archetype in the latest Reign of Winter book has inspired me to try to combine the fighter and gunslinger into a MCA. Though this was done over my lunch break yesterday, so it might be pretty rough and still needs some custom deeds added.
** spoiler omitted **...
Thank you! In order:
I figured having trench warfare and weapon training stacking would be fine as the fighter archetype I took trench warfare from has both, and
I wasn't sure if Bravery was enough to swap for both Gunsmith and Grit, maybe a "Diminished Grit" would be better (Grit equal to Wis mod - 1, similar to the Bushwacker's Trembling Grit)?
I'd like to brainstorm with people on here for some unique deeds for this MCA, if possible. My reasoning for that deed progression is that the Frontier Huntsman (the Ranger/Gunslinger MCA) gives up the Combat Style feats at 2nd/6th/10th/14th/18th to gain deeds at those levels.
I think we'd rather stay away from machine gun until it hits up the PRD or other paizo OGL stuff, so can we change that to musket?
And yeah, other than perhaps that stacking issue I like this guy. And I don't normally like those non-casting plebeian types! :P
I think we might be able to work up a defensive deed or two for 'em.
And also, something to consider in this MCA- normally you must be a multiclass gunslinger/fighter to get Weapon Specialization and drop a lot of feats to get mass damage bonuses with that firearm, so we might want to drop off weapon training just to avoid any massive damage ramping. Doing so also gives us a little more room for other things, so...
Looking at Intellectual Ascetic, just wondering if we would be able to swap all those abilties for the paladin spell progression table, an illuminated spell book, and a reduced rate of gaining new spells.
What do you think guys? Keep it as it is or does this necessitate a paladin spell progression?
Toaster, like the Gunbound curse.
Alfray, good job on you Treach Infantryman. The swap for bravery is unbalanced unfortunately, and the stacking of weapon training and treanch warefare could cause issues, but we'll look it over. The deeds swapped for bonus feats should be fine, it's the swapping for gunsmith and grit that might be unbalanced.
May need to go with weapon trainining or Trench Warfare, not both. Then we could incorporate some type of camouflage benefits by swapping out armor training, perhaps scaled bonus to stealth or scaled concealment, partial, full, etc.
EDIT: Plus what Raider said.
Right then, I'll switch all mentions of machine gun to a different firearm. Is the trench warfare ability (also from Rasputin Must Die!) also needing to go until it's out on the PRD/SRD? Apologies, as I've subscribed to the adventure paths I got the PDF yesterday, saw the archetype and thought to combine it properly with the gunslinger.
Any ideas/suggestion for replacing weapon training?
Deeds I wouldn't mind losing are; Utility Shot, Startling Shot, and Slinger’s Luck.
One of my thoughts when first writing this was the possibility of having Cover Mastery be a deed, but I'd need to find a suitable swap for Armor Mastery...
and thank you for the help and approval.
Edit: Just noticed Elghinn's post; right then so suggestions on how to gain grit and gunsmith in a balanced manner? It seems odd to me to lose the fighter's bonus feat at first level, but I feel that might be required.
My main reason for thinking that keeping Trench Warfare and Weapon Training should be fine, is there's a now published official archetype that has it, but I can completely understand your reasoning.
Unfortunately I need to head off (real life calls). I'll check this thread this evening when I get home and comment back with any other thoughts I might have in the meantime.
Edit again: Just a thought, would the loss of medium and heavy armour proficiency, and shield proficiency be enough to balance the gunsmith/grit/bravery situation?
Welcome Alfrey, nice job!
So now I've finished off the gun prophet, and the intellectual acsetic is being evaluated ill finally start working on the Gunslinger/Witch. I dont think ill call it Witch Sniper because, while awesome sounding, it implies a specific kind of gun fighting.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Right then, I'll switch all mentions of machine gun to a different firearm. Is the trench warfare ability (also from Rasputin Must Die!) also needing to go until it's out on the PRD/SRD? Apologies, as I've subscribed to the adventure paths I got the PDF yesterday, saw the archetype and thought to combine it properly with the gunslinger.
Any ideas/suggestion for replacing weapon training?
Deeds I wouldn't mind losing are; Utility Shot, Startling Shot, and Slinger’s Luck.
One of my thoughts when first writing this was the possibility of having Cover Mastery be a deed, but I'd need to find a suitable swap for Armor Mastery...
and thank you for the help and approval.
Edit: Just noticed Elghinn's post; right then so suggestions on how to gain grit and gunsmith in a balanced manner? It seems odd to me to lose the fighter's bonus feat at first level, but I feel that might be required.
My main reason for thinking that keeping Trench Warfare and Weapon Training should be fine, is there's a now published official archetype that has it, but I can completely understand your reasoning.
Unfortunately I need to head off (real life calls). I'll check this thread this evening when I get home and comment back with any other thoughts I might have in the meantime.
Edit again: Just a thought, would the loss of medium and heavy armour proficiency, and shield proficiency be enough to balance the gunsmith/grit/bravery situation?
Hey Alfray, on a slightly unrelated note, I don't have access to the most recent adventure path yet, so could you send me the full text of that archetype (and any other archetypes or feats that are detailed in the AP) so that I can put it up on d20pfsrd.com? You can either PM me on the boards here or send it to cartmanbeck@gmail.com. Thanks!!
Here's my tweaks to the Trench Infantryman.
Primary Class: Fighter.
Secondary Class: Gunslinger.
Hit Dice: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The trench infantryman may select three gunslinger skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal fighter class skills. The trench infantryman gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The trench infantryman is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all firearms. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Gunsmith: At 1st level trench infantryman gains the gunslinger’s gunsmith ability. This ability and grit replace the bonus feat gained at 1st level.
Bonus Feats: This functions as the fighter class ability, except that a trench infantryman may also select grit feats.
Deeds: At 2nd level, a trench infantryman gains the gunslinger’s deeds ability, and gains access to 1st level deeds. Every four levels beyond 2nd, the trench infantryman gains access each subsequent level of deeds (3rd, 7th, etc.), up to 15th level deeds at 18th level. This ability replaces the bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level.
In addition, a trench infantryman swaps three gunslinger deeds for the following deeds.
Concealment Expert (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the trench infantryman has 1 grit point, he gains a +5% circumstance bonus to the missed chance granted by concealment or total concealment. This increases to +10% at 11th level, and +15% at 19th level. This deed replaces the utility shot deed.
Prone Shot (Ex): At 7th level, a trench infantryman that has been prone since the end of his last turn can spend 1 grit point as an immediate action to improve his prone fighting expertise with his firearm. Until the beginning of his next turn, his penalty on melee attack rolls decreases to –2. Also, his bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks increases by +1, and his penalty to AC against melee attacks decreases by –1. At 11th level and every four levels thereafter, his bonus increases and his penalty decreases by 1, to a maximum of +4 and –4 (minimum 0) at 19th level. This deed stacks with the Prone Shooter feat. This deed replaces the startling shot deed.
Camouflage (Ex): At 15th level, a trench infantryman can spend 1 grit point to craft simple but effective camouflage from the surrounding foliage. The trench infantryman needs 1 minute to prepare the camouflage, but once he does, it is good for the rest of the day or until the trench infantryman fails a saving throw against an area effect spell that deals fire, cold, or acid damage, whichever comes first. The trench infantryman gains a +4 bonus on Stealth checks while within terrain that matches the foliage used to make the camouflage. This deed cannot be used in areas without natural foliage. This deed replaces the slinger’s luck deed.
Grit (Ex): At 2nd level the trench infantryman gains the gunslinger’s grit ability.
Trench Warfare (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a trench infantryman can select one specific type of firearm (such as a blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). He gains a bonus equal to his Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Every 4 levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the trench fighter picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well. Furthermore, when behind partial, normal, or improved cover, a trench fighter gains an additional +2 AC bonus from the cover. This ability replaces weapon training.
Cover Mastery: At 19th level, a trench infantryman may treat cover as one step greater. Partial cover is treated as normal cover, and normal cover is treated as improved cover. This ability replaces armor mastery.
Master Infantryman: At 20th, a master infantryman chooses a single firearm. Any attacks made with that firearm automatically confirm all critical threats. In addition he selects one deed. He can perform this deed for 1 grit point fewer (minimum 0) than usual. If the number of grit points to perform a deed is reduced to 0, the trench infantryman can perform this deed as long as he has at least 1 grit point. If a deed could already be performed as long as he had at least 1 grit point, he can now perform that deed even when he has no grit points. This ability replaces weapon mastery.
Table: Trench Infantryman
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Gunsmith
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Bravery, deeds, grit
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Armor training 1
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Trench warfare 1
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Deeds
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Armor training 2
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Trench warfare 2
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Deeds
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Armor training 3
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Trench warfare 3
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Deeds
15th +15/+10/+15 +9 +9 +5 Armor training 4
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Trench warfare 4
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Deeds
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Camouflage mastery
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Bonus feat, master infantryman
And here's how I think we should go with the Gun Prophet. Need a balance check fromthe CREW though.
Some see the rise in firearms as a natural progression of warfare. For the gun prophet however, firearms are an expression of a new age. Empowered by this recognition, gin prophets use firearms as a symbol for a new age. In fact they tie their very powers to their guns.
Primary: Oracle.
Secondary: Gunslinger.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The gun prophet may select three gunslinger skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal oracle class skills. The gun prophet gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The gun prophet proficient with all simple weapons, all firearms, with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). Some oracle revelations grant additional proficiencies.
Diminished Spellcasting: The gun prophet casts divine spells drawn from the cleric/oracle spellist, and gains one fewer spell of each spell level per day. She otherwise learns, prepares, and casts spells as a cleric of equal level.
Divine Grit (Ex): At 1st level, a gun prophet gains the gunslinger’s grit ability, but uses her Charisma modifier to determine her number of grit points. This ability replaces the revelation gained at 1st level.
Mystery of the Gun: A gun prophet combines mysticism with the cold hard steel of firearms. This ability is exactly like the oracle’s mystery ability except for the following changes. A gun prophet replaces associated bonus spells granted by his mystery with the following spells: abundant ammunition (2nd), reloading hands (4th), flash fire (6th), named bullet (8th), named bullet, greater (12th).
At 3rd level, a gun prophet can select a deed from the gunslinger’s list of 1st level deeds in place of a revelation. At 7th level and every four levels thereafter, she can select a deed from each subsequent level of deeds or lower in place of a revelation, up to 15th level deeds.
Deeds: At 3rd level, a gun prophet gains the gunslinger’s deeds ability, and chooses two 1st level deeds. At 5th level and every four levels thereafter, she can select two deeds from each subsequent level of deeds, up to 15th level deeds at 17th level. This ability replaces spell lost due to diminished spellcasting.
NEW ORACLE’S CURSES
The following oracle’s curse may be selected by any oracle.
Gunbound (Ex): An oracle gains the gunslinger's gunsmith ability. When her battered firearm gains the broken condition, the oracle takes a –2 penalty to her caster level until it is repaired. In addition an oracle cannot lower the misfire chance to less than 1. When wielding her battered firearm, an oracle may treat it as a divine focus for the purposes of her oracle spellcasting. At 5th level, an oracle adds half her Charisma modifier to her battered gun damage rolls. At 10th level, she may use her full Charisma modifier. At 15th level, she no longer receives a –2 penalty to her caster level when her battered firearm has the broken condition. In addition, an oracle may reroll a misfire chance with her battered firearm once per day. This ability replaces oracle’s curse.
Table: Gun Prophet
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Deeds, diminished spellcasting, divine grit, 2 — — — — — — — —
mystery of the gun, oracle’s curse, orisons
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Mystery spell 3 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Revelation 4 — — — — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Mystery spell 5 2 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Deeds 5 3 — — — — — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Mystery spell 5 4 2 — — — — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Revelation 5 5 3 — — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Mystery spell 5 5 4 2 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Deeds 5 5 5 3 — — — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Mystery spell 5 5 5 4 2 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Revelation 5 5 5 5 3 — — — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Mystery spell 5 5 5 5 4 2 — — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Deeds 5 5 5 5 5 3 — — —
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Mystery spell 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Revelation 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 — —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Mystery spell 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Deeds 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 —
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Mystery spell 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Revelation 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Final revelation 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
Elghinn, I like those deeds; I was thinking of suggesting something similar to the Rogue Crawl Rogue Talent. As I'd prefer the archetype doesn't gain Armor Training (as the archetype I've based it off doesn't gain Armor Training and the lack of armour proficiencies above Light), I'll have a think as to what could replace it.
I think we could easily add into the bonus feat section that the TI could choose the Rogue Crawl rogue alent in place of a feat, or any similarly flavorful talents. I wish I had have known abiut that talent, I was looking for something like that.
Perhaps we could replace armor training 1 and 3 with appropriate rogue talents? See what you can find. Then we can move Armor training 1 to 7th and Armor Training 2 to 15th. I think losing so many of the fighter abilities may make it too much gunslinger. Plus he's already restricted to light armor anyways. May as well gain some benefits from the restriction.
Primary Class: Fighter.
Secondary Class: Gunslinger.
Hit Dice: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The trench infantryman may select three gunslinger skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal fighter class skills. The trench infantryman gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The trench infantryman is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all firearms. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Gunsmith: At 1st level trench infantryman gains the gunslinger’s gunsmith ability. This ability and grit replace the bonus feat gained at 1st level.
Bonus Feats: This functions as the fighter class ability, except that a trench infantryman may also select grit feats.
Deeds: At 2nd level, a trench infantryman gains the gunslinger’s deeds ability, and gains access to 1st level deeds. Every four levels beyond 2nd, the trench infantryman gains access each subsequent level of deeds (3rd, 7th, etc.), up to 15th level deeds at 18th level. This ability replaces the bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level.
In addition, a trench infantryman swaps three gunslinger deeds for the following deeds:
Concealment Expert (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the trench infantryman has 1 grit point, he gains a +5% circumstance bonus to the missed chance granted by concealment or total concealment. This increases to +10% at 11th level, and +15% at 19th level. This deed replaces the utility shot deed.
Prone Shot (Ex): At 7th level, a trench infantryman that has been prone since the end of his last turn can spend 1 grit point as an immediate action to improve his prone fighting expertise with his firearm. Until the beginning of his next turn, his penalty on melee attack rolls decreases to –2. Also, his bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks increases by +1, and his penalty to AC against melee attacks decreases by –1. At 11th level and every four levels thereafter, his bonus increases and his penalty decreases by 1, to a maximum of +4 and –4 (minimum 0) at 19th level. This deed stacks with the Prone Shooter feat. This deed replaces the startling shot deed.
Camouflage (Ex): At 15th level, a trench infantryman can spend 1 grit point to craft simple but effective camouflage from the surrounding foliage. The trench infantryman needs 1 minute to prepare the camouflage, but once he does, it is good for the rest of the day or until the trench infantryman fails a saving throw against an area effect spell that deals fire, cold, or acid damage, whichever comes first. The trench infantryman gains a +4 bonus on Stealth checks while within terrain that matches the foliage used to make the camouflage. This deed cannot be used in areas without natural foliage. This deed replaces the slinger’s luck deed.
Grit (Ex): At 2nd level the trench infantryman gains the gunslinger’s grit ability.
Infantryman's Crawl (Ex): At 3rd level the trench infantryman may move at half his base speed while prone. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. In addition he can take a 5-foot step while crawling. This replaces Armor Training 1. Editor's note: This is based off the Rogue Talent "Rogue Crawl".
Trench Warfare (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a trench infantryman can select one specific type of firearm (such as a blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). He gains a bonus equal to his Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Every 4 levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the trench fighter picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well. Furthermore, when behind partial, normal, or improved cover, a trench fighter gains an additional +2 AC bonus from the cover. This ability replaces weapon training.
Armor Training (Ex): A trench infantryman gains this ability at 7th level and again at 15th level.
Considered Shot (Ex): At 11th level the trench infantryman can make a ranged attack that ignores concealment (but not total concealment), soft cover, and partial cover as a standard action. This ability replaces Armor Training 3. Editor's note: This is based off the Skirmisher's Trick "Trick Shot".
Cover Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a trench infantryman may treat cover as one step greater. Partial cover is treated as normal cover, and normal cover is treated as improved cover. This ability replaces armor mastery.
Master Infantryman (Ex): At 20th, a master infantryman chooses a single firearm. Any attacks made with that firearm automatically confirm all critical threats. In addition he selects one deed. He can perform this deed for 1 grit point fewer (minimum 0) than usual. If the number of grit points to perform a deed is reduced to 0, the trench infantryman can perform this deed as long as he has at least 1 grit point. If a deed could already be performed as long as he had at least 1 grit point, he can now perform that deed even when he has no grit points. This ability replaces weapon mastery.
Table: Trench Infantryman
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Gunsmith
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Bravery, deeds, grit
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Infantryman's crawl
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Trench warfare 1
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Deeds
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Armor training 1
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Trench warfare 2
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Deeds
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Considered shot
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Trench warfare 3
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Deeds
15th +15/+10/+15 +9 +9 +5 Armor training 2
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Trench warfare 4
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Deeds
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Camouflage mastery
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Bonus feat, master infantryman
Yeah, I think we've got it! Looks good. Still holds some of the fighter (bonus feats, bravery, a bit of armor training) then the genreic and specialty gunslinger stuff. Good job Alfray!
Cheers for that. So that was a little over 36 hours from conception to completion. :P
Would it be fair to say that in a Gun's Everywhere setting you'd lose Gunsmith and gain Trench Warfare again at 1st level, much like the gunslinger gains Gun Training at 1st level?
If I have any other ideas for possible MCAs I'll be sure to give them a go at writing them up, unless someone has already had a similar idea and offer my advice on things, if you don't mind?