Goblin Squad Member
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I've been playing the Neverwinter open beta lately just to pass the time, and that got me thinking about how GW plans to handle rollbacks.
Neverwinter is in open beta, with the cash shop open, and no wipes. So I'm not really sure what "beta" means in this case--the game is pretty much out, just in a state of regular hotfixes. There was recently a huge farming exploit--basically one of the Guardian class' abilities did millions of points of damage, and could 1-3 shot boss mobs. So of course a bunch of people just farmed the heck out of the the most difficult dungeons, creating a huge economic skew.
But you can't rollback, because people are paying for stuff with real money. I've mostly played subscription games before, so I'm not sure how this is best handled.
What happens if we're in EE, people are paying for micro-transactions, and something big goes wrong in the economy?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been playing the Neverwinter open beta lately just to pass the time, and that got me thinking about how GW plans to handle rollbacks.
Neverwinter is in open beta, with the cash shop open, and no wipes. So I'm not really sure what "beta" means in this case--the game is pretty much out, just in a state of regular hotfixes. There was recently a huge farming exploit--basically one of the Guardian class' abilities did millions of points of damage, and could 1-3 shot boss mobs. So of course a bunch of people just farmed the heck out of the the most difficult dungeons, creating a huge economic skew.
But you can't rollback, because people are paying for stuff with real money. I've mostly played subscription games before, so I'm not sure how this is best handled.
What happens if we're in EE, people are paying for micro-transactions, and something big goes wrong in the economy?
Games making a mistakes that require rollbacks, is usually hugely sloppy events. They do greatly infuriate the community, especially when someone having nothing to do with the giant exploit etc... happens to stumble upon a super rare item.
Games without cash shops are still hesitant to even consider a rollback because of the harm such a concept does to everything else.
I suppose the biggest thing is, to actually test and prevent giant economic collapses and the like from happening to begin with. PFO's overall model already leaves quite a bit of coverage for issues like the example you provided. Namely because the game as provided so far, requires significant time spent finding and getting to said dungeons, they poof when completed so you can't just spam them over and over again in the 48 hours it takes for a huge glitch like the one you described to be reasonably patched.
I know cryptic is doing most of the coding etc... but every perfect world game I have ever played emphasizes some huge amount of terrible planning, and horrid bandaid fixes.
Take pulling in the original perfect world. Pulling in instances was done via having a venomancer (pet class), send his pet foward into the middle of enemies, the pet hits 1 enemy once and then is dismissed, at that point only the enemy that was hit will move foward and leave his protection and come after the party. This is in my opinion an obvious exploit, one that must have been caught in the alpha stages, and rather than fixing it, they decided it should be the de-facto mechanic, and beefed up dungeon mobs to make it so that was the only way to get through a dungeon alive unless you were 20-30 levels above the instance. (again that is my speculation)
Anyway ignoring my side tracked nature, the propor approach, is to actually plan, and alpha test things well enough before they get into the game, and IMO if a bug of huge extents hits, do an emergency shutdown and patch (if nothing else, have the emergency patch just temporarally block out the broken ability/item etc.. while it is being re-coded). Personally I'd rather get locked out of the game for a few hours, than have a days work taken from me, cash shop or not.
That being said I also don't see how cash shop really changes the rules of rollbacks. A rollback should return the person's money, and items he used between the time that the rollback was issued. Turn the items back to skymetal bits or whatever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What happens if we're in EE, people are paying for micro-transactions, and something big goes wrong in the economy?
I think it's far less likely to happen in PFO Early Enrollment than Neverwinter Beta. For one thing, the loot system is completely different, with loot only being coin and crafting material, not actual equipment. Because XP gain is time locked and not earned by killing and questing, Goblinworks will have a much tighter lock on when powerful items and abilities are introduced into the game. Also, the cash shop will likely not even be in the game until well into EE, and hopefully most balance issues will be ironed out by then.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What happens if we're in EE, people are paying for micro-transactions, and something big goes wrong in the economy?
That's a good question, and this is a good time to start thinking about it.
From a technical perspective, I think you can rollback; it's just going to require careful planning. The Cash Shop Servers and the World Servers will be separated. It seems to me the biggest problem will be instantaneous-use purchases that were made during the window that is being rolled back - they should probably just result in a Skymetal Bits refund to the player's account.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have played in MMO's that have had this issue, and generally speaking the GM's and admins have made it up to the players - either through refunds or replacement of any cash shop items, and running events with better than normal loot drop rates. The other thing they do is give out higher XP, which is not really possible for PfO, but it shouldn't be an issue as everyone gains XP based on the passage of real time, not what happens in-game. I have a feeling GW will do all they can should a server meltdown occur, which is less likely as I expect the server to be a robust one, with back-up systems. Ryan has repeatedly expressed his desire to learn from the mistakes of other MMO's, and I am sure the lessons learned by such occurrences in other MMO's have been learned by the GW team.
Additionally, Decius is correct, fixing the economy doesn't require a rollback, and GW has posted and blogged that they will be keeping a close eye on the economy and will have tools available to fix anything should it start to go astray from their desired goals for it.
Personally speaking, as I try not to speak for others, I don't see this as an issue to be concerned with at all, at least not for PfO that is :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Neverwinter was brought up in the OP, I will point this out. They had their cash shop opened during closed beta as well. When they did the wipe before "not-launch", they refunded any Zen that had been spent. It doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to reverse the transaction log to refund skymetal spent during the duration of the rollback.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Neverwinter is in open beta, with the cash shop open, and no wipes. So I'm not really sure what "beta" means in this case--the game is pretty much out, just in a state of regular hotfixes...
Many players understandably only see 'beta' from the player perspective, but that does not mean there are not other distinct perspectives. The developers perspective is a process of engineering, and the term beta has a widely different meaning in such a schema than it does in the player context.
If you are using an architect and contractor in building a house the roof may be on and the drywall installed but many fixtures remain unfinished. In Neverwinter, notice for example the limited expression of feat paths, only one paragon path is yet detailed. You have a viable product and certainly the company as a business wants your money: that should be acceptable, despite the vehement vitriol to the contrary. But the design is not yet fully functional in all its parts. The developer recognizes and admits this publically by labeling it 'beta' rather than 'release' or 'golden'.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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It is more important to the long-term health of the game and to Goblinworks that problems related to exploits be addressed immediately. Of course, everything has to be handled on a case by case basis, but in general, my inclination will be to remove excess currency from the economy and compensate with accelerated XP.
In general, that will likely be our solution to many problems - fix the problem, and compensate with XP. Since XP == game time, giving players extra XP is equivalent to giving them store credit but it is a non-cash expense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Diablo III just had a huge exploit in their AH where players were able to duplicate gold through some sort of bug, previously undiscovered. Blizzard completely closed the AH and did a rollback of the specific violators, not the entire population, which kept the AH offline for a few extra days (that is a very labor intensive process, and a pretty bold decision by Blizzard). Blizz then banned or suspended the exploiters, and donated all the exploited proceeds (as well as Blizzards transaction fees associated with the rogue transactions) to the Childrens' Miracle Network.
This is probably the exception. Most companies would just fix the bug and do a huge rollback.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hardin - you possibly already came across this: Diablo III Economy Broken by an Integer Overflow Bug
Lol at those numbers!
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Goblin Squad Member
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AvenaOats, It is clear the DIII economy will never be restored to its original state, as those numbers are ridiculously large (think Zimbabwe and their $100 trillion note, which was immediately devalued after its printing). [See $100 Trillion note worth about $5 at wsj.com]
Planning and testing the Pathfinder Online economy is as important a task during EE as is the combat mechanics, Escalation Cycles, mass combat, and crafting. That may sound like I am being alarmist, but any of the games we have played are only as strong (read "Fun and viable for a long time") as the weakest system in them. Since there are going to be many players, some of which will inevitably spend their game time trying to find an exploitable flaw, something will turn up. The more diligent we are during EE the better the game will be.
I have spent many hours in the past in many games trying to get my characters to what I hoped would be interesting locations by creating my own jumping puzzles, jumping on little clefts, jumping down to dark and spooky places, swimming to the edge of the game map to see if I could wrap around the planet, crossing gaming zones in unlikely, illogical or forbidden places. And it sometimes worked! If possible I would mark the spot and could return there, and sometimes bring friends, who were amazed. It was a little victory, but fun to try, especially if the traditional part of the game became too grindy. If I am willing to do that with no real gain in mind (besides a small personal achievement), understand how people who play for profit in real money will exploit any flaw for personal and financial gain with no regard to the other people that get hurt in the meantime, referring not to the gamers here, but he people employed at the developer who stand to lose their jobs of the game collapses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So I'm not really sure what "beta" means in this case--the game is pretty much out, just in a state of regular hotfixes.
The idea of a beta test has been really diluted in the past few years, especially an open beta. It used to mean some actual bug testing. Now it often means early enrollment in an all-but-final game.
Edit: What Being said is also true, and it sounds like that might be the case for Neverwinter. Some other product launches, though, including some MMOs, have definitely conveyed a strong impression of "early entry privileges" rather than "unfinished state, enter at your own risk", or "come help us find the bugs".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Soft Launch, Limited Release sound more applicable than Beta. In fact that good 'ol Delta (ref: Nihimon iirc) fits the bill?
The aspect of that really appeals to me is the community self-selects to choose this game (higher chance of aligned interests). :) I'm hoping to get my "software testing" skills scrubbed up by the time PFO comes out too.
That said, the current controversy over "beta = marketing" or "beta = paid-beta for suckers" etc is fairly understandable from other games out there and in conjunction with the use of F2P currently. As luck would have it, another hugely absorbing article on F2P again by Mr. Shokrizade, if any are interested:
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is more important to the long-term health of the game and to Goblinworks that problems related to exploits be addressed immediately. Of course, everything has to be handled on a case by case basis, but in general, my inclination will be to remove excess currency from the economy and compensate with accelerated XP.
In general, that will likely be our solution to many problems - fix the problem, and compensate with XP. Since XP == game time, giving players extra XP is equivalent to giving them store credit but it is a non-cash expense.
This sounds wrong.
The original proposal from the kickstarter was Game time = free.
Training Time = $$$ = xp earned at a fixed rate over the period of time you had paid training active.
Everyone that has active training time earns xp at the same rate as any other player.
Giving free xp to some players because you screwed up throws this out of whack.
Have you once again made a significant core change to the game which as per the Kickstarter rules entitle anyone not satisfied with the core changes a refund?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It is more important to the long-term health of the game and to Goblinworks that problems related to exploits be addressed immediately. Of course, everything has to be handled on a case by case basis, but in general, my inclination will be to remove excess currency from the economy and compensate with accelerated XP.
In general, that will likely be our solution to many problems - fix the problem, and compensate with XP. Since XP == game time, giving players extra XP is equivalent to giving them store credit but it is a non-cash expense.
This sounds wrong.
The original proposal from the kickstarter was Game time = free.
Training Time = $$$ = xp earned at a fixed rate over the period of time you had paid training active.
Everyone that has active training time earns xp at the same rate as any other player.
Giving free xp to some players because you screwed up throws this out of whack.
Have you once again made a significant core change to the game which as per the Kickstarter rules entitle anyone not satisfied with the core changes a refund?
This offer stands. I'm not sure why you object to the existence of customer service incentives which are offered to players; I would imagine that if players have coin removed as part of an economy fix, they would be given goblin balls roughly equal in estimated market value (after the adjustment) to the coin that was removed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way I see the EE, is it is an exceptional opportunity to enjoy mmo with like-minded community of players as well as help shape the game. That's the value in it for me. If there are certain important bugs that can be found and changed, that is totally fine with me. I mean there are always problems that need correcting and it's preferable sooner than later so it affects fewer players. I hope to improve my software testing skills by then additionally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way I see the EE, is it is an exceptional opportunity to enjoy mmo with like-minded community of players as well as help shape the game. That's the value in it for me. If there are certain important bugs that can be found and changed, that is totally fine with me. I mean there are always problems that need correcting and it's preferable sooner than later so it affects fewer players. I hope to improve my software testing skills by then additionally.
+1 ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The question is very likely not "if" a big economic exploit is found but what to do "when" a big economic exploit is found.
"Open Beta" with a wipe at the end is great for finding such problems and fixing them with everyone knowing the wipe is coming.
"Early Enrollment" with no wipe at the end is very dangerous. As Perfect World foudn out the hard way yesterday.
My suggestion is the last 30 days before EE be "Open Beta" where the EE folks get in the game and TRY to break it. Give us 30 days to try and find bugs and exploits, then fix and wipe at the 30 day mark and start EE.
Otherwise, your first 30 days of EE could be as bad as Neverwinter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...My suggestion is the last 30 days before EE be "Open Beta" where the EE folks get in the game and TRY to break it. Give us 30 days to try and find bugs and exploits, then fix and wipe at the 30 day mark and start EE.
Your plan devalues real money investments in the kickstarter under terms different than you propose. Tell you what, rather than taking away my money how about you just delete your character after 30 days instead?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Everyone who begins play during Early Enrollment will have to accept terms of service that anticipate many rollbacks, changes, fixes, and adjustments. It's the nature of the Early Enrollment concept that problems will be defined, and fixed, as the players and developers Crowdforge. Of course such actions will be implemented in ways that affect the fewest number of players and when there's an extraordinary circumstance some XP compensation may be offered.
We're not dumb enough to suggest we can launch, lock in, and just be perfect. That flies in the face of 20 years of MUD/MMO history.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the development of every game I have helped from alpha or beta it has been work. Very rewarding work sometimes, but sometimes not fun and not rewarding. The difference is usually in how reasonable the play testers are, how willing they are to do the job, how willing and able they are to provide insight and really discover and report problems and exploits, but also in how responsive the dev team is. If their design runs contrary to the input of the testing community they are going to want to go with their design. Sometimes they are right and the community is wrong in what they are asking. Sometimes they are proved wrong when it is too late to change course. Sometimes the testing community is unwilling to share the exploits they discover and it ruins what is otherwise a good game.
I think with this community and these professionals we have a pretty good chance.
However be advised that working through alpha and beta does tend to take the edge of the anticipation for the game, and can lead to something like 'burn out'. If you are among those who help test, remember to pace yourself. It isn't really play time: we will be like volunteer assistants. Sometimes it will seem like menial labor. But it is necessary for the whole to come together ultimately as a work of art.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your plan devalues real money investments in the kickstarter under terms different than you propose. Tell you what, rather than taking away my money how about you just delete your character after 30 days instead?...My suggestion is the last 30 days before EE be "Open Beta" where the EE folks get in the game and TRY to break it. Give us 30 days to try and find bugs and exploits, then fix and wipe at the 30 day mark and start EE.
Being, I don't know how you would lose money from my suggestion. I was suggesting an extra 30 day before EE where the EE folks get in the game and try to break it. Try to exploit it, etc. knowing that at the end of the 30 days everything is wiped and EE starts. How exactly would that take money away from you? I'm not flaming, I'm honestly asking.
It seems to me to have a new set of eyes looking for bugs and exploits before the permanent launch is a good thing.
It would have saved perfect world this never winter disaster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I misunderstood you Sol. Sorry.
No biggie, that's why I asked.
GW could make the "break this game month" fun by adding prizes for finding bugs and exploits, maybe they can even hide a few exploits for us to find.... it could be a fun month where we purposefully act out of character in the game and do every thing possible to screw the game up as much as possible so more can be fixed before it goes live.
seems like a fun idea that would have saved some "other" company a lot of heart ache...
If a month is too long maybe a week or two then...just something with a large mass of players beyond the handful of alpha testers...
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Goblin Squad Member
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that is what i am encouraging.
Right now the schedule seems to be closed alpha followed by Early enrollment with no server wipe after EE starts.
I suggest that after closed alpha there needs to be a brief mass beta test to try and find exploits. Then wipe and start EE.
I fear the first month of EE without a mass beta of any kind. Could a few hundred alphas find everything? How do you know the servers will hold the thousands of EE folks if you never stress test it?
One obscure exploit that lets a few evil players counterfeit millions in currency then mule it around to hundreds of accounts just like gangsters laundrying counterfeiter money could kill this sandbox at its birth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One obscure exploit that lets a few evil players counterfeit millions in currency then mule it around to hundreds of accounts just like gangsters laundrying counterfeiter money could kill this sandbox at its birth.
I don't think so.
For what it's worth, Bitcoin experienced a similar exploit in the very real world of very real money.
- On 6 August, a major vulnerability in the Bitcoin protocol was found. Transactions weren't properly verified before they were included in the transaction log or "block chain" which allowed for users to bypass Bitcoin's economic restrictions and create an indefinite number of bitcoins.
- On 15 August, the major vulnerability was exploited. Over 184 billion bitcoins were generated in a transaction, and sent to two addresses on the network. Within hours, the transaction was spotted[who?] and erased from the transaction log after the bug was fixed and the network forked to an updated version of the Bitcoin protocol. This was the only major security flaw found and exploited in Bitcoin's history.
I expect that Neverwinter will recover at least as well as Bitcoin has. I can't imagine such an incident "killing" PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking about this a little, and rollbacks are not that big of a deal, assuming players get compensated for lost xp, and refunded any cash shop purchases.
Not that this applies to this game, since part of 'beta' is building the world. But HiRez did a good thing with Tribes: Ascended, they tested the cash shop out by allowing players to make $$ 'Gold' purchases, but when the game launched, they were given all the 'Gold' back. So if you spend bought 7000 gold in beta, you had 7000 gold at launch. Unless you are a sandbox, I think this is is how any game should handle launch/beta if they have a cash shop.