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The invisibility spell also give a +20 to the stealth modifier when making a stealth check. It also says it give a +40 if the target is stationary which is very close to, but not exactly, what the language in the invisibility condition for the glossary says.
The problem is they are not worded the same way, which leads to some confusion.
Is the invisibility spell better worded than the actual condition?
FAQ this please.
edit:edited title.
PS:An explanation on how this works on stationary and moving targets would also be nice.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check.
There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
Invisible creature is... Using Stealth: Stealth check +20
The invisibility spell also give a +20 to the stealth modifier when making a stealth check.
It's a bonus, not a modifier.
Invisibility: "If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving."
The invisibility spell also give a +20 to the stealth modifier when making a stealth check.It's a bonus, not a modifier.
Invisibility: "If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving."
+20 is a modifier and a bonus since it used the "+" sign. All modifiers are going to "+" or "-" unless it's a 0.
edit:I see you were talking about the title..I fixed it.
I edited the title. I intended to not use the word "bonus". I am just so use to saying it.
+20 is a modifier and a bonus since it used the "+" sign. All modifiers are going to "+" or "-" unless it's a 0.
That's going to further confuse the people who can't tell the difference between the DC to notice a creature, the modifiers to that DC, and the bonus to any skills which can be incorporated into those modifiers.
The invisibility spell grants a bonus to stealth checks.
A stealth check, including that bonus, can modify the perception DC to notice an invisible creature.
The DC is modified by a check containing a bonus.
I'm told things have a better chance of getting the FAQ treatment if it's a single, concise question rather than a whole topic.
So is "Is the invisibility spell better worded than the actual condition?" really what you want to know?
Why not ask "Does the stealth check, including any relevant bonuses to stealth, replace the DC 20 perception check to notice an invisible creature, if the invisible creature is using stealth?"
I actually want one FAQ to clarify how invis is supposed to work. I guess asking which is more accurate the spell or the condition is valid for the title however.
Either way your FAQ will be answered, and those who feel they were misrepresented will get an answer.
I think a specific thread asking does the perception and stealth modifiers stack could be its own thread, and they can combine them all into one FAQ.
I guess asking which is more accurate the spell or the condition is valid for the title however.
That implies they're not both accurate. (Assuming you mean invisibility in the glossary, rather than the actual invisible condition)
Nobody is adding the +20 bonus to stealth checks from being invisible on top of the "Stealth +20" perception modifier in the table. (Well, one guy was for a while, but he never really explained himself and stopped posting)
When the perception modifier table under invisibility in the glossary says "Stealth +20" that +20 listed there in that line of the table IS the +20 bonus to stealth checks.
Not really. They(the spell vs the glossary) are just not worded the same.
IIRC the condition says the DC to find you when you are not moving and invisible is 40 which implies a flat 40 check.
The spell says you get a +40 to whatever you roll.
In any event I think that 95% of us know the answer to the question you are asking in your thread. Answering the question of those who felt mispresented will answer everyone's question.
So if I am not wording it well then you can give me a better recommendation, but "how they all the modifiers interact" is basically what the FAQ should cover.
IIRC the condition says the DC to find you when you are not moving and invisible is 40 which implies a flat 40 check.
By "find" do you mean notice, or pinpoint?
Either way, that has nothing to do with stealth.
Asking "How does stealth and invisibility interact?" seems like more of a whole topic rather than a single, concise question.
So if we could pull that apart and just ask about the parts we feel are unclear, I think we would be more likely to get a response.
I've been trying to get the confused people to narrow down their problems with the rules into a nice easily understandable concept. Clearly, I seem to have failed, despite further attempts only confirming that their interpretation is functionally identical to simply removing the bonus to stealth checks.
According to the invis section noticing is only a 20 within 30 feet. Pinpointing is finding the square. I was speaking of pinpointing, not noticing.
I don't think they are confused. They just refuse to accept the reality of the situation. It is on of those situations where people just refuse to accept a rule they don't like. I am sure you have seen a few of those post.
If people are just going to say "no the book is wrong", there is not much you can do. It was just like the "manyshot is a standard action" thread.
According to the invis section noticing is only a 20 within 30 feet. Pinpointing is finding the square. I was speaking of pinpointing, not noticing.
Ok.
The invisibility section tells you that you can notice with DC 20, or pinpoint with DC 40.
The invisibility spell tells you that you get a +40 (or +20 if moving) bonus to stealth checks.
Those do not contradict each other.
That bonust to Stealth from invisibility is a bit silly, if you ask me...
Kinda funny how an invisible creature can hide better than non-invible ones even when they're in an area with no light whatsoever and the one looking for them is blind.
I usually houserule it to something like this:
"Creatures who rely on sight take a -20 penalty to note an invisible creature. This bonus increases to -40 if the invisible creature remains stationary"
(although I usually half those bonuses)
I makes more sense, IMO.
According to the invis section noticing is only a 20 within 30 feet. Pinpointing is finding the square. I was speaking of pinpointing, not noticing.Ok.
The invisibility section tells you that you can notice with DC 20, or pinpoint with DC 40.
The invisibility spell tells you that you get a +40 (or +20 if moving) bonus to stealth checks.
Those do not contradict each other.
My point is that the spell is written in a way that makes it easier to understand for most people. I am sure the RAI is the same. I was in another post a while back when I had to break the two down.
Another issue is that many people don't know the different between "noticing" and "pinpointing".
I think we can both agree that an FAQ on invis and how it interacts with perception or stealth would not hurt.
I think the issue is also the invis section has it as increasing the DC to perception, and the invis spell has it as a bonus to stealth. Effectively there is no difference, but when explaining something it helps to be consistent.
I think the issue is also the invis section has it as increasing the DC to perception, and the invis spell has it as a bonus to stealth. Effectively there is no difference, but when explaining something it helps to be consistent.
Most people are not confused between the +20 bonus to stealth checks while moving (detailed in the spell) and the "+20" that is written after the words "Stealth check" in the modifier table.
They are, however, confused into thinking that somehow the stealth check replaces the perception DC and removes things from the table.
RAW:
Base DC 20 check
Moving half speed: -5
Using Stealth: Stealth +20
Example guy with zero ranks in stealth, 10 dex, no armor, no other effects, rolls a 1 on the d20 for his stealth check.
Result: DC 36 perception check to notice his presence, DC 56 to pinpoint his square. (Assuming he's not in combat or speaking, and is less than 10' from the person looking)
Do you feel this conflicts with either section of the rules?
Why is this so hard?
It's always a Perception check to see/hear/perceive someone, so let's start with Perception:
First, let's ignore the bonuses and penalties for things that aren't relevant to Invisibility. For example, we can really get sidetracked into irrelevancy if we worry about distance, distractions, etc., and none of those worries answer anything at all about Invisibility, so let's just assume DMs will apply them without us having to discuss them here.
Basic (relevant) Perception DCs:
Notice a visible creature: 0
Notice a creature using Stealth: Opposed by Stealth
Perception also says this:
Creature or object is invisible: +20 to the DC
Stealth says this:
If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.
Since the DC of a Perception Check to notice a creature using Stealth IS the final modified Stealth check, then these two rules are perfectly in sync - the Stealthy guy rolls a stealth check and adds +20 to the roll, which matches perfectly with what Perception says, NO CONFLICT, and further adds that if the Stealthy guy is not moving he can add +40 instead of +20, which wasn't mentioned in Perception but is mentioned in Stealth, so again, NO CONFLICT.
The "Invisible" condition says nothing about perceiving the invisible creature, it only talks about attack bonuses and such.
So far NO CONFLICT.
Now for the Invisibility Special Ability:
1. "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack."
What does this mean? This bit of the rule doesn't say anything about Stealth so we must assume the creature is not trying to be Stealthy. If we go back to the Perception rule, we see that "Notice a visible creature" is a DC 0 and invisibility adds +20 to that DC, which perfectly matches what is said here. NO CONFLICT.
2. "It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."
What does this mean? There are several paragraphs about pinpointing an invisible creature, but they involved groping around and finding them by touch, or using special abilities. The difference between noticing (as above, a hunch that something is there) and pinpointing is that if you pinpoint the location, you know exactly which square the invisible creature is in.
This is hard to do, "practically impossible" so it adds +20 to the DC, not to perceive, but to pinpoint the location. Since we're not trying to simply "notice" a creature, but to pinpoint its location using senses other than our eyes (still Perception, but "practically impossilbe"), this is a separate rule not covered previously under Perception, so NO CONFLICT.
3. "Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance)."
Irrelevant, this is only talking about attacking a pinpointed creature, nothing to do with perceiving it. NO CONFLICT.
4. "There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity."
Most of these have nothing to do with invisibility and are identical to the modifiers we already saw on the Perception page. However, it's worth noting that "Not moving" is listed here as a +20 modifier to the Perception DC, and "Using Stealth" as an opposed check against a DC of "Stealth check + 20", both of which are a perfect match for what we learned reading the Stealth rule, so again, NO CONFLICT.
In fact, having read all the rules, I cannot find any conflicts anywhere. I also read the other "Fun with Invisibility" and similar recent threads, and I still don't understand why anyone is having trouble with this.
Once again I am NOT saying there is an actual conflict. I am saying they are written differently enough to make a "perceived" conflict.
I also think we are reading the rule differently.
The DC if he was not moving to pinpoint him would be a flat 40.
If he is moving the DC to pinpoint him should be a 36, not 56.
That +20 to pinpoint is not the same as the DC to notice.
It is not a +20 to notice. It is a 20 to notice.
One he tries to actively use stealth he gets to use "stealth check+20" as the perception modifier. If he is not moving then he gets an additional +20 to this check. <--This is also in the invisibility spell since it adds up to the +40 that is mentioned.
The " It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint" is the same as "stealth check+20" in the chart.
Otherwise if your example guy tries to hide, but does not move he get another +20 pushing him to 81 since he is not moving the -5 does not apply.
Why is this so hard?
It's always a Perception check to see/hear/perceive someone, so let's start with Perception:
First, let's ignore the bonuses and penalties for things that aren't relevant to Invisibility. For example, we can really get sidetracked into irrelevancy if we worry about distance, distractions, etc., and none of those worries answer anything at all about Invisibility, so let's just assume DMs will apply them without us having to discuss them here.
Basic (relevant) Perception DCs:
Notice a visible creature: 0
Notice a creature using Stealth: Opposed by StealthPerception also says this:
Creature or object is invisible: +20 to the DCStealth says this:
If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.Since the DC of a Perception Check to notice a creature using Stealth IS the final modified Stealth check, then these two rules are perfectly in sync - the Stealthy guy rolls a stealth check and adds +20 to the roll, which matches perfectly with what Perception says, NO CONFLICT, and further adds that if the Stealthy guy is not moving he can add +40 instead of +20, which wasn't mentioned in Perception but is mentioned in Stealth, so again, NO CONFLICT.
The "Invisible" condition says nothing about perceiving the invisible creature, it only talks about attack bonuses and such.
So far NO CONFLICT.
Now for the Invisibility Special Ability:
1. "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack."
What does this mean? This bit of the rule doesn't say anything about Stealth so we must assume the creature is not trying to be Stealthy. If we go back to the Perception rule, we see that "Notice a visible creature" is a DC 0 and invisibility adds +20 to that DC, which...
You are preaching to the choir.
RAW:
Base DC 20 check (DC)
Moving half speed: -5 (modifier)
Using Stealth: Stealth +20 (DC)Example guy with zero ranks in stealth, 10 dex, no armor, no other effects, rolls a 1 on the d20 for his stealth check.
Result: DC 36 perception check to notice his presence, DC 56 to pinpoint his square. (Assuming he's not in combat or speaking, and is less than 10' from the person looking)
Do you feel this conflicts with either section of the rules?
You're adding two DCs together. You cannot do that. You must establish one single DC and then only add modifiers.
In your quote above, I edited in (parentheses) which ones are DCs and which are modifiers.
The DC 20 IS the DC for the Perception check, not a modifier, to notice a non-stealthy invisible creature. That would normally be a DC of 0 (visible creature) with a +20 modifier for being invisible.
The "Using Stealth" IS just the DC for the Perception check, not a modifier, to notice a stealthy invisible creature. That would normally be a DC of "Stealth" (visible creature) with a +20 modifier for being invisible.
Since those two things are specific DC values, not modifiers, they cannot be added together. They are mutually-exclusive, the first being for non-stealthy creatures and the second being for stealthy creatures. One creature cannot simultaneously be both, so figure out which one he is and use the correct DC, then apply any actual modifiers (not other DCs) as applicable.
I think the issue is also the invis section has it as increasing the DC to perception, and the invis spell has it as a bonus to stealth. Effectively there is no difference, but when explaining something it helps to be consistent.
It is already consistent.
Increasing the Perception DC and increasing Stealth roll is the same exact "consistent" thing because, when the creature is using Stealth, the Perception DC IS the Stealth check.
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You are preaching to the choir.
Maybe, but this choir seems to have many voices and they're not all singing the same song.
I think the issue is also the invis section has it as increasing the DC to perception, and the invis spell has it as a bonus to stealth. Effectively there is no difference, but when explaining something it helps to be consistent.It is already consistent.
Increasing the Perception DC and increasing Stealth roll is the same exact "consistent" thing because, when the creature is using Stealth, the Perception DC IS the Stealth check.
It is effectively consistent, which means the RAI is the same, but when you say stealth over here, and perception over there it confuses people so consistent to me means "using the same verbage" not equivalent verbage.
I think we both know each section will get you the same results, but for some others this is an issue. That can be resolved by using the same language in both areas.
You are preaching to the choir.Maybe, but this choir seems to have many voices and they're not all singing the same song.
When Grick applied the word "conflict" to me you assumed he thought I was saying the RAI between the two sections were in disagreement. That was never the case. I phrased the title the way I did to help Grick understand since he did not like my previous titles.
You're adding two DCs together.
No, I am not.
You must establish one single DC and then only add modifiers.
Correct.
"Stealth +20" is a modifier.
We know this is true because it's listed along with all of the other modifiers in the table.
Do I have to post this in all four threads?
Point 1:
This is not a modifier (nor a bonus, nor a penalty). It's a DC. The only DC mentioned in the invisibility section.
Point 2:
The modifiers are applied to the DC 20 Perception check to notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet. This is because that is the only DC mentioned in the invisibility section.
Point 3: One of the modifiers that can be applied to the DC is when the .
If you move at half speed, that applies a modifier to the DC. That doesn't mean the modifier IS the DC, it means you modify the DC with that value. That's what a modifier is.
Point 4: The modifier that is applied to the DC when the is .
So, since the modifier for Moving at half speed is -5, that results in a DC 15 Perception check to notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet that is moving at half speed.
As you can see, nothing is being doubled up. You have a DC and a modifier. The modifier is not the same as the DC.
Point 5: One of the modifiers that can be applied to the DC is when the .
If you are Using Stealth, that applies a modifier to the DC. That doesn't mean the modifier IS the DC, it means you modify the DC with that value.
Point 6: The modifier that is applied to the DC when the is .
So, since the modifier for Using Stealth is Stealth check +20, you modify that DC by adding (or subtracting, if negative) the Stealth check +20.
As you can see, nothing is being doubled up. You have a DC and a modifier. The modifier is not the same as the DC.
I already had this discussion with Grick, he is convinced that the DC should be added together.
You're adding two DCs together. You cannot do that. You must establish one single DC and then only add modifiers.
The way I read it, and have always played it is that if you're invisible you get a +20 to your stealth check if you're moving (modified of course by speed/sound) and +40 if you're standing still. I see the +20 listed in perception and invisibility as the same modifier (don't use it twice).
I already had this discussion with Grick, he is convinced that the DC should be added together.
You're better than that, Diego.
The invisibility section tells you that the stealth check is a modifier to the DC.
Thus, you are not adding two DCs together, you're modifying a DC with the DC modifier listed in the table of DC modifiers exactly like the rules explicitly say.
True or false:
The difference between noticing (or pinpointing) a moving invisible creature that is using stealth compared to noticing (or pinpointing) that same moving invisible creature if it were not using stealth is exactly equal to the result of his stealth check, including any bonuses or penalties to that stealth check.
The way I read it, and have always played it is that if you're invisible you get a +20 to your stealth check if you're moving (modified of course by speed/sound) and +40 if you're standing still. I see the +20 listed in perception and invisibility as the same modifier (don't use it twice).
You're doing it correctly.
Other people are doing that, but also removing the base DC 20 check which is modified by the result of your stealth check.
When the table says to modify the perception DC with "Stealth +20" that's referring to the result of your stealth check, and the +20 is the +20 bonus to that check. Don't apply it twice. Just take the base stealth check, add your +20 bonus, then apply that to the DC.
The way I read it, and have always played it is that if you're invisible you get a +20 to your stealth check if you're moving (modified of course by speed/sound) and +40 if you're standing still. I see the +20 listed in perception and invisibility as the same modifier (don't use it twice).You're doing it correctly.
Other people are doing that, but also removing the base DC 20 check which is modified by the result of your stealth check.
When the table says to modify the perception DC with "Stealth +20" that's referring to the result of your stealth check, and the +20 is the +20 bonus to that check. Don't apply it twice. Just take the base stealth check, add your +20 bonus, then apply that to the DC.
Assuming a character has a -1 stealth check and rolls a natural 1 (with no other modifiers this leads to 0)..
1. DC to "notice" that an invisible creature is within 30' (DC 20)
2. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're moving at half speed)(DC 15)
3. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're not moving (DC 40)
Now let's assume that they have a +9 to stealth and roll a natural 1 (thus giving us a +10 stealth check)..
1. DC to "notice" that an invisible creature is within 30' (DC 20)
2. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're moving at half speed)(DC 25)
3. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're not moving (DC 50)
Here is how I run it.
Except, would you not say that creature using stealth+invis is attempting to not be "noticed"? Why the flat DC for "noticing"? Does the stealth skill do nothing to defeat that?
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Grick:
Under the general rules for Skill Checks, the CRB states:
"When making an opposed skill check, the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target."
Under Stealth, the CRB states:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you."
Putting those together, Stealth opposes Perception and therefore the DC of the perception check is the result of the target's Stealth check. There is nothing in these rules about using opposed skill checks as mere modifiers to the other guy's skill checks. You're making assumptions about doing something that is not described in the rules.
I understand why. You're nitpicking about the fact that the Invisibility Special Ability has "Stealth Check + 20" listed in a column where the column header says "DC Modifier" so therefore you're assuming it must be a modifier. I'm assuming that the writer is demonstrating that, in this case, it's actually an opposed check instead of a modifier. He didn't want to leave it out as that might raise questions about how to handle the situation, so he stuck it in this table.
I think the guy who created that table already knew the rules were quite clear on what to do with opposed checks and therefore assumed that we would all look at that entry in the Invisibility Special Ability table and all of us would simply say "Oh, look, instead of a modifier here, we're supposed to use the Opposed Skill rules so the stealthy monster has to make a Stealth Check at +20 to set the DC for the Perception check."
And almost all of us do exactly that.
It really is just that simple.
Invisibility specifically states that to have a "hunch" that the creature is there is a flat DC 20. So you'll be able to tell that there's something there (link it to the creepy feeling you have on the back of your neck when you think something is watching you). In order to locate that creature, you'll need to beat their stealth check +20 if they're moving or stealth +40 if they're standing still. That's it for modifiers from invisibility.
Except, would you not say that creature using stealth+invis is attempting to not be "noticed"? Why the flat DC for "noticing"? Does the stealth skill do nothing to defeat that?
You don't.
The flat DC for noticing is for invisible creatures not using Stealth.
I explained this in my first post in this thread. According to Perception, the DC to notice a creature that is not invisible and not using Stealth is 0. Zero. The invisibility adds +20 so the DC to notice an invisible creature not using Stealth is 20.
Stealth skill has nothing to do with this.
When you try to notice/see/perceive a creature using Stealth, you always have to beat that creature's Stealth check. In fact, his Stealth check really IS your DC to to perceive him. If he is not invisible, it's just Perception vs. Stealth. If he is invisible, it's Perception vs. Stealth +20, as described separately but consistently in the Perception rules, Stealth rules, and Invisibility rules.
In other words, the "flat" DC of 20 has no bearing on creatures being Stealthy.
But what about these "hunches" I am hearing about?
edit: nevermind. The invis description describes it as the result of a successful check.
But what about these "hunches" I am hearing about?
Per http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Invisibility
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
1. DC to "notice" that an invisible creature is within 30' (DC 20)
Correct.
"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check."
2. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're moving at half speed)(DC 15)
Incorrect.
"It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."
"Invisible creature is... Moving at half speed" "-5"
DC 20
+20 to pinpoint
-5 moving half speed
It requires a DC 35 perception check to pinpoint an invisible creature moving at half speed within 10'.
3. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're not moving (DC 40)
Correct.
However, none of those examples used stealth.
Now let's assume that they have a +9 to stealth and roll a natural 1 (thus giving us a +10 stealth check)..
Lets say that guy is moving at half speed, and is within 10' of you.
DC 20
+20 to pinpoint
-5 moving half speed
+Stealth +20
It requires a DC 65 perception check to pinpoint an invisible creature moving at half speed within 10' that is using stealth and got a 10 on the stealth check before bonus.
3. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're not moving (DC 40)Correct.
No, incorrect, you both forgot the +20 modifier for not moving:
DC 20, +20 for not moving, +20 to pinpoint = DC 60.
However, none of those examples used stealth.Now let's assume that they have a +9 to stealth and roll a natural 1 (thus giving us a +10 stealth check)..Lets say that guy is moving at half speed, and is within 10' of you.
DC 20
+20 to pinpoint
-5 moving half speed
+Stealth +20It requires a DC 65 perception check to pinpoint an invisible creature moving at half speed within 10' that is using stealth and got a 10 on the stealth check before bonus.
Incorrect.
The "Steatlh +20" is the replacement DC. It is not a modifier, despite being on a "Modifiers" table, because it is assumed that you would immediately notice that this is an opposed skill check and use those rules as presented in the Skills chapter.
So the DC to pinpoint a creature moving at half speed using Stealth would be:
Stealth check + 20
+20 to pinpoint
-5 moving at half speed
Adding that up, the DC is Stealth check + 35.
So, it requires a DC 45 perception check to pinpoint an invisible creature moving at half speed within 10' that is using stealth and got a 10 on the stealth check before bonus.
There is nothing in these rules about using opposed skill checks as mere modifiers to the other guy's skill checks.
Because you're not reading the right section of the rules.
The general section on stealth checks is not talking about being invisible.
The section on invisibility is specifically talking about being invisible.
You're making assumptions about doing something that is not described in the rules.
I'm doing exactly what it says in the rules.
The rules tell you the DC to notice an invisible creature.
The rules tell you to modify that DC under certain circumstances.
The rules tell you the modifier for when the invisible creature is using stealth is "Stealth check +20" .
That's all exactly from the rules. Look at my post a little above this. Everything in blue is rules text.
2. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're moving at half speed)(DC 15)Incorrect.
"It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."
"Invisible creature is... Moving at half speed" "-5"
DC 20
+20 to pinpoint
-5 moving half speedIt requires a DC 35 perception check to pinpoint an invisible creature moving at half speed within 10'.
I think this is where the disconnect is.. You're looking at the DC to pinpoint by using the "Hunch" DC and adding the bonus from invisibility and stealth. I look at it and ignore the "hunch" DC and just use the bonus from invisibility and stealth.
3. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're not moving (DC 40)Correct.
However, none of those examples used stealth.
Both examples were using stealth (but only a +0 on the result as a base)
No, incorrect, you both forgot the +20 modifier for not moving3. DC to "pinpoint" that creature if they're not moving (DC 40)Correct.
"There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity."
If you're not moving, nor engaged in a noisy activity, you don't modify the DC.
The "Steatlh +20" is the replacement DC.
The rules say otherwise.
Maybe that's what wraithstrike is looking for as a FAQ topic. "Is the modifier for a creature using stealth that is listed in the invisibility modifiers table actually a modifier like it says, or is it instead a replacement DC?"
Maybe that's what wraithstrike is looking for as a FAQ topic. "Is the modifier for a creature using stealth that is listed in the invisibility modifiers table actually a modifier like it says, or is it instead a replacement DC?"
Based on this logic.. it would be better on average for someone to move around NOT stealthing when invisible than it would be if they were... Is that what we're getting at?
I think this is where the disconnect is.. You're looking at the DC to pinpoint by using the "Hunch" DC and adding the bonus from invisibility and stealth."It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."
"Invisible creature is... Moving at half speed" "-5"
DC 20
+20 to pinpoint
-5 moving half speedIt requires a DC 35 perception check to pinpoint an invisible creature moving at half speed within 10'.
No, I'm not.
I'm not looking at the stealth section. I'm not looking at the perception section. I'm not looking at the invisibility spell. I'm not looking at the invisible condition.
Every single part you need is listed in the invisibility section of the glossary.
It tells you the DC to notice a creature. That is the only DC listed in the entire section.
It tells you that if you want to pinpoint the location, you modify that DC.
It also tells you that if the creature is doing certain things, you also modify that DC.
It tells you what those things are, and how you modify that DC.
Maybe that's what wraithstrike is looking for as a FAQ topic. "Is the modifier for a creature using stealth that is listed in the invisibility modifiers table actually a modifier like it says, or is it instead a replacement DC?"
Then that is the question we should be asking for a FAQ. I understand the rules to be quite clear that this is the DC, you obviously understand it to be a modifier.
If we want a FAQ on this specific question, then a thread should be raised with this specific question asking for a FAQ. As messy as this thread is, and the others, debating about a dozen different modifiers to different invisibility/perception checks, is asking for a rules rewrite rather than just a FAQ, and I don't think it's likely that we'll get a rules rewrite.
Make it a simple, direct question to ask if that entry in the table is a modifier or a replacement DC and we might get a quick answer.
Maybe that's what wraithstrike is looking for as a FAQ topic. "Is the modifier for a creature using stealth that is listed in the invisibility modifiers table actually a modifier like it says, or is it instead a replacement DC?"Based on this logic.. it would be better on average for someone to move around NOT stealthing when invisible than it would be if they were... Is that what we're getting at?
Which logic?
RAW:
You're better off using stealth. The difference between being pinpointed using stealth and not using stealth is the result of your stealth check. Given the large bonus to stealth checks, you're unlikely to be able to get a negative result.
Replacement HouseRules:
You're only better off using stealth if your stealth check, before the bonus, is 15 or higher.
Because, again according to the Replacement HouseRules:
Invisible creature moving half speed: DC 35 to pinpoint
Invisible creature using stealth: DC Stealth+20
The word "this" in the statement "There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity." applies to "pinpoint", and not "notice".
There is only one DC listed in the entire invisibility section.
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Based on this logic.. it would be better on average for someone to move around NOT stealthing when invisible than it would be if they were... Is that what we're getting at?
Maybe that's what wraithstrike is looking for as a FAQ topic. "Is the modifier for a creature using stealth that is listed in the invisibility modifiers table actually a modifier like it says, or is it instead a replacement DC?"
Of course not. Just because the DC was changed, doesn't mean modifiers can't affect it.
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RAW:
You're better off using stealth. The difference between being pinpointed using stealth and not using stealth is the result of your stealth check. Given the large bonus to stealth checks, you're unlikely to be able to get a negative result.Replacement HouseRules:
You're only better off using stealth if your stealth check, before the bonus, is 15 or higher.Because, again according to the Replacement HouseRules:
Invisible creature moving half speed: DC 35 to pinpoint
Invisible creature using stealth: DC Stealth+20
This is, of course, absurd. The modifiers should affect the DCs: - 5 moving half speed + 20 to pinpoint. This ends up with a DC Stealth + 35.