Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature is alive but is healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy, as if it were an undead creature.
Nothing about a banshee's wail says it heals undead creatures instead of harming them, therefore it affects dhampirs just like it does humans.
Gah! SKR beat me to it I had a whole explanation typed out but hit the wrong button. LOL He said it so much shorter and sweeter though LOL.
Yes it would harm the dhampir. The ability is only for hit points, not anything else.
I do not get the problem here, the banshee's wail is not even a negative energy attack, it is a sonic death effect. It only affects living creatures which the dhampir is still.
There is a negative energy elemental that explodes when killed. It harms living and heals undead.
Undead ->"Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score."
It reference a hit point based spell.
I think the problem is that people are equating spells from the necromancy school with negative energy, which is not always the case.
edit:I meant to also say they try to tie into effects that are necromancy based also.
Negative energy 'damage' heals undead, this does not seem to include ability damage though. Undead of course are immune to ability damage but dhampir's appear not to be, a shadow's touch would affect them normally. A lenient GM might treat it the same as an energy drain attack though.
So let say I had a creature with a negative energy breath weapon. If it breaths this breath weapon on a group of vampires is it going to heal them or damage them?
The breath weapon does not state that it would heal any undead, so does that mean this negative energy is going to harm the undead?
I think by default it will heal them unless noted otherwise, though a dhampir might still be affected by other effects of the breath weapon in some way, like ability or energy drain. This is not the case here though, the banshee's wail is not a negative energy attack.
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If an effect says "it affects living creatures like this, and undead creatures like this," the NEA creature is affected as if it were undead.
Effects that don't state how undead are affected differently affect a NEA creature as described in the effect. This also applies if the undead type would make the creature immune to that effect (such as a Fort save effect that doesn't affect objects, therefore undead are immune)... the NEA creature is affected in the same way as a living creature.
For example, most poison just says "#d# Str damage." Poison doesn't affect undead because poison has a Fort save and doesn't affect objects. A creature with NEA takes poison damage just like a living creature. Even if you had some weird magical poison that said it dealt "1d6 points of negative energy damage per round," a creature with NEA would take that damage just like a living creature. But if the weird magical poison said, "this deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage per round, but undead are instead 1d6 points of damage per round," then the NEA creature would be healed because the effect is explicitly calling out the difference between how it affects living creatures and undead creatures.
As an aside: the game doesn't have a universal rule of "negative energy damage harms living and heals undead." Channel energy, cure spells, and inflict spells specifically call out the positive/negative energy and the different effects on living/undead, but that doesn't mean there is a universal rule of "negative energy hurts living and heals undead" or "positive energy heals living and hurts undead." Lacking such a universal rule, don't extrapolate the cure/inflict and channel-pos/channel-neg rules as if they were a universal rule.
Negative energy 'damage' heals undead, this does not seem to include ability damage though. Undead of course are immune to ability damage but dhampir's appear not to be, a shadow's touch would affect them normally. A lenient GM might treat it the same as an energy drain attack though.
Undead aren't immune to all ability damage. Undead are only immune to ability damage to their physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution). They can still take ability damage to their mental scores.
If an effect says "it affects living creatures like this, and undead creatures like this," the NEA creature is affected as if it were undead.
Effects that don't state how undead are affected differently affect a NEA creature as described in the effect. This also applies if the undead type would make the creature immune to that effect (such as a Fort save effect that doesn't affect objects, therefore undead are immune)... the NEA creature is affected in the same way as a living creature.
For example, most poison just says "#d# Str damage." Poison doesn't affect undead because poison has a Fort save and doesn't affect objects. A creature with NEA takes poison damage just like a living creature. Even if you had some weird magical poison that said it dealt "1d6 points of negative energy damage per round," a creature with NEA would take that damage just like a living creature. But if the weird magical poison said, "this deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage per round, but undead are instead 1d6 points of damage per round," then the NEA creature would be healed because the effect is explicitly calling out the difference between how it affects living creatures and undead creatures.
As an aside: the game doesn't have a universal rule of "negative energy damage harms living and heals undead." Channel energy, cure spells, and inflict spells specifically call out the positive/negative energy and the different effects on living/undead, but that doesn't mean there is a universal rule of "negative energy hurts living and heals undead" or "positive energy heals living and hurts undead." Lacking such a universal rule, don't extrapolate the cure/inflict and channel-pos/channel-neg rules as if they were a universal rule.
Reading the undead traits entry in the bestiary seems to suggest they are healed by negative energy. I take that as : 'They are healed by it unless it is stated otherwise', correct ?
I understand specific trumps general information but now you say it is only true if the general rule is specifically confirmed.., I think ?
Negative energy 'damage' heals undead, this does not seem to include ability damage though. Undead of course are immune to ability damage but dhampir's appear not to be, a shadow's touch would affect them normally. A lenient GM might treat it the same as an energy drain attack though.Undead aren't immune to all ability damage. Undead are only immune to ability damage to their physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution). They can still take ability damage to their mental scores.
Good catch, though I am not sure whether I know of any way mental abilities of undead get damaged, I am sure there are some.
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Reading the undead traits entry in the bestiary seems to suggest they are healed by negative energy. I take that as : 'They are healed by it unless it is stated otherwise', correct?
Yeah. I see that. :/
1) It's a really vague piece of text in the undead entry, in that it specifically refers to inflict spells and ignores many other effects that use negative energy.
2) It's text that the PFRPG inherited from 3.5, and I don't think anyone thought to update it with a clearer eye for problems like this.
3) "Negative energy" isn't really defined anywhere in the game as having a universal set of abilities (such as "negative energy heals undead and harms the living, in the same way that positive energy harms undead and heals the living."
3b) Nowhere does the game say "positive energy heals the living." Otherwise you could heal yourself by drinking holy water, or by getting hit by disrupt undead (which is specifically called out as positive energy... but doesn't say it heals people).
4) Many spells and effects use "negative energy" as flavor text without meaning it to be rules text.
5) Some spells and effects use "negative energy" intending it to be rules text but without realizing that undead are affected differently.
6) This leads to things like desecrate filling an area with negative energy, but that negative energy only buffs undead, it doesn't heal undead, and it doesn't harm living creatures at all. And enervation gives negative levels to living creatures but gives temporary hit points to undead creatures (is that "healing"?). And touch of fatigue fatigues living creatures but doesn't heal undead (or affect them in any way).
So the NEA ability tries to deal with all of that vagueness by saying, "look, if an ability explicitly calls out that it affects undead differently than living, then this creature is affected like an undead, but for everything else it's still affected like a living creature." Because the NEA description can't fix all of the vagueness and loopholes in all pos and neg energy effects in the game.
Thanks Sean, appreciate the feedback ! Perhaps that bit can be cleared up in bestiary 4 and added to the errata list, though it will likely take some extensive text searching and adjusting to straighten this one out completely.
Someone replied with a question about channeling energy and targeting NEA creatures, but that post seems to have vanished. I'll answer it anyway.
Channeling energy is an area effect; it is not targeted. A creature with NEA in the area is affected as if it were undead, regardless of the intent of the channeler.
As I said in this thread back in 2012, with the example of a human cleric, his dhampir ally, and a ghoul opponent:
that post seems to have vanished.
It was mine, I deleted it because it was sort of off-topic, and answered by the proposed rule change you mentioned. (The forums didn't just randomly eat the post) I certainly appreciate the clarification, though.
