(And P.S. why were the "assassin" class features not simply made into rogue talents in the first place?)Because it was a separate class in 3.5 (where it actually had a point, since rogues didn't get talents until 10th level and assassins actually got spells like Invisibility to help them do their job), and Pathfinder wanted to copy-paste as much text from d20srd as possible regardless of playability.
I especially like how a Rogue 5 / Assassin 1 has the same BAB as a Wizard 6.
They are also evil. Isn't being evil not allowed in PFS?
Assassin is not legal for society play no. Its probably not something you want to be, but its not legal so it doesn't matter for PFS play. For a discussion about rogues/assassins its probably an okay subject. Personally I'm not a big fan of prestige classes in pathfinder at all. Many are more than subpar, or overly specific.
Everyone is forgetting that rogues should be getting the alpha strike as well as scouting combats so that casters can prepare.
** spoiler omitted **
Edit: Also, why does everyone go weapon finess? It sucks.
25 point buy is not the standard, and dropping con is not a good idea if you will be gaining that type of attention. Actually dropping con is not a good idea at all.
The other side of the argument is that this means the wizard with all his training in the arcane and the like, and all his intelligence, and all his arcane power, and with 20 ranks in disable device... Doesn't know how to deal with this magical thingy beyond casting dispel magic. He has all the power to recognize it(possibly more than the rogue!), just doesn't know how to disable it. Which I find a bit weird. YMMV of course.That makes sense to me because of special training. It just like two guys trained in making websites, but one is specialized in VoIP.Skills are not that great, for the most part. That is why I wish the rogue could do special things with skills to make them have something other classes did not have.Have to be careful with things like that. Sometimes you end up taking away options instead of giving them. Just look at the ridiculousness that is disabling magical traps. Apparently this one mundane guy can do it, but not the guy with 20 ranks in it?
I was not speaking of magic traps specifically. I was just speaking of the ability to have special abilities with skills. The magic trap, that a wizard can't disable always seemed strange to me also.
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I especially like how a Rogue 5 / Assassin 1 has the same BAB as a Wizard 6.
It really infuriates me that paizo "fixed" the save progressions of PrC's to not give a single ounce more than if you had stayed single class, yet they did not bother at all to fix BAB progression for PrC's. No medium BAB PrC should start at +0! There is only a 1/4 chance that a medium BAB class would have been due for a BAB hit the level he enters the PrC, and in fact since many many PrC's have entry at level 6 (ie, after 5 base class levels), in a lot of circumstances, the medium BAB class going into the medium BAB PrC JUST TOOK A HIT TO HIT BAB LAST LEVEL! It's so blatantly unfair and wrong!
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Fractional BAB, I use it because it just doesn't make sense not to and its not hard to use at all.
Well yeah, I fix a lot of paizo's mistakes with houserules. Doesn't usually help one bit when I'm a player in someone else's PF game if paizo doesn't actually change it themselves.
I've gotten lucky and I haven't had to put up with it yet myself. Its hard to get into a prestige or multiclass as is. My poor wizard can't even enter a prestige in PFS without losing his free spells per level. Feels locked out really. The rogue prestiges tend to give small bonuses to stats, a slightly slower sneak attack progression, and... the chance to give up rogue talents I guess? Many of which I'm not fond of.
Speaking of rogues and stuff, what about the ninja 'archetype'? Combat viable? Able to pull weight? ect.
Ninja is a minor improvement over rogue. Has all the fundamental problems and is extremely MAD, it just gets some cool/useful class features. At level 10 when it gets Greater Invis and can actually sneak attack pretty much at will, the difference becomes pronounced. Not so much before then. And PFS is levels 1-12.
Ninjas are better, but they aren't a fix at all. You'd still need to invest some in combat to be good in combat, as with any martial.
Now, I assume you're looking for melee builds because you don't want to spend a ton of feats on archery (since it's basically just part of archery...). But if you're willing to spend them, I do have a viable rogue archer build. You dip Oracle 1 level for the Waves mystery and take Water Sight revelation. You can now see in fog and mist. Throw up an Obscuring Mist spell. Against anyone not adjacent to you (and you can 5 ft step back on your turn), you have total concealment and thus they cannot see you. Then you full attack sneak attack. Or they run away, in which case... you're a dude with a bow and a ton of archery feats and the other guy is moving away from you... you still win, just slower.
I'm not sure it would work well for PFS, though...
Even though this use is FAR less powerful than the intended use ("I'm-a gonna cast save or dies from within this cloud while you can't even find me."), at best I imagine a lot of PFS DM's may find this "cheesy." At worst, you'll likely have to spend time every time you game pointing out the rules and showing that it works.
But there you are. The only way I've found to make Rogue combat viable. Don't forget to pack some smoke sticks to use as power components so fire spells can't burn the mist away.
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Now, I assume you're looking for melee builds because you don't want to spend a ton of feats on archery (since it's basically just part of archery...). But if you're willing to spend them, I do have a viable rogue archer build. You dip Oracle 1 level for the Waves mystery and take Water Sight revelation. You can now see in fog and mist. Throw up an Obscuring Mist spell. Against anyone not adjacent to you (and you can 5 ft step back on your turn), you have total concealment and thus they cannot see you. Then you full attack sneak attack. Or they run away, in which case... you're a dude with a bow and a ton of archery feats and the other guy is moving away from you... you still win, just slower.
I'm not sure it would work well for PFS, though...
Even though this use is FAR less powerful than the intended use ("I'm-a gonna cast save or dies from within this cloud while you can't even find me."), at best I imagine a lot of PFS DM's may find this "cheesy." At worst, you'll likely have to spend time every time you game pointing out the rules and showing that it works.
But there you are. The only way I've found to make Rogue combat viable. Don't forget to pack some smoke sticks to use as power components so fire spells can't burn the mist away.
I found this as well, and used it because I also like the idea of a sniper. I went the route of deafness so i can cast silently at no cost, and took enough levels of oracle to get Silence. She's a caster killer more than anything, but yeah, I get negative reactions to her. ::shrug:: She's a one trick pony, and a DM could easily kill her because of that lack of depth, but it's fun, especially when they realize it's awfully one dimensional and stop whining about how cheesy it is.
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Exactly they are far behind everyone, even the ninja. At level 10 the alternate rogue class is using greater indivisibility in every fight and is attacking flat footed AC. Something the rogue can't do more than once a round (if that).
Ok so I'll post more later (still reading through), but if the Ninja is that much better than play a homebrew (or atleast not a PFS) game and convince the GM to allow you to trade Ninja Poison Use for Rogue Trapfinding they have very similar (if not identical, didn't check) skill lists and both get 8+ Int skill points. Plus as you said they get to have invis and greater invis through Ninja tricks, and advanced ninja tricks respectively. And you don't have to play a naruto knock off or a head to toe, black clad, masked and hooded ninja. Often times ninjas looked just like normal people after all, because thats what they started out as. Peasant, Commoners, etc were not allowed to carry weapons of any kinds in ancient japan, that was relegated to the lords and their samurai. So to get around it, common farm instruments were modified into weapons. (and yes I know I'm butchering the history and etc, if you know it better, or more specifics you can correct me) Basically my point is the character concept summary Twig wrote would pretty easily fit the ninja as well. A mundane person able to do extraordinary things.
Well I agree with the others when they said traps you can handle with a check are boring. No one really likes traps. My home DM's and myself don't put in traps unless their is a rogue in the party. Couple this with anyone being able to see a trap and that PFS goes up to 12. I don't really see anymore how useful handling traps even is.
EDIT: Also poison-use is amazing. I would really like to keep that.
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Making the katana finessable would also be a nice addition for rogues. Give me a finessable agile katana, wielded in 2 hands with 18 base Dex and I'd be a happy camper, errr ninja.
Instead I have to waste a feat to get proficiency with the Elven Curved Blade or play a race I don't want to play.
spend a feat on exotic weapon proficiency with one weapon, or lose human bonus feat for this:
Adoptive Parentage Humans are sometimes orphaned and adopted by other races. Choose one humanoid race without the human subtype. You start play with that race's languages and gain that race's weapon familiarity racial trait (if any). If the race does not have weapon familiarity, you gain either Skill Focus or Weapon Focus as a bonus feat that is appropriate for that race instead. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
and get not only elven curved blade but all other "Elven" weapons
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Making the katana finessable would also be a nice addition for rogues. Give me a finessable agile katana, wielded in 2 hands with 18 base Dex and I'd be a happy camper, errr ninja.
Instead I have to waste a feat to get proficiency with the Elven Curved Blade or play a race I don't want to play.
spend a feat on exotic weapon proficiency with one weapon, or lose human bonus feat for this:
Adoptive Parentage Humans are sometimes orphaned and adopted by other races. Choose one humanoid race without the human subtype. You start play with that race's languages and gain that race's weapon familiarity racial trait (if any). If the race does not have weapon familiarity, you gain either Skill Focus or Weapon Focus as a bonus feat that is appropriate for that race instead. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
and get not only elven curved blade but all other "Elven" weapons
There are no other "Elven" weapons. This trait works best when Dwarves are chosen. There are a mass of "Dwarven" weapons.
Well Elves have a few things they are familiar with. Its just that the only exotic one is the Elven Curve Blade unless your using 3.5 material. Unless I'm misreading something here.
Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.
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well after reading all this I'll leave rogues out of consideration except for homebrew campaigns where I can get some house rule concessions from the GM. If I am going to go skill monkey I'll probably look at the trapper/freebooter ranger, or maybe a ninja because: poison. In actuality though I'm not currently playing any Pathfinder games, but I am playing a 3.5 that has dropped to only 2 players so I may offer to play a version of that re-fluffed "barbarian-as-a-'monk'" class (from a few pages back in this thread) in addition to my rogue.
Anyways I want to thank everyone who has been posting in this thread, whether you were for a rogue build or not. You have given a rather crunchy perspective on rogues, and to an extent on Pathfinder as a system, that has helped me to see through a lot of the fluff and polish that pathfinder has. Its actually been fun reading all the competing builds and suggestions.
I just want to through one thing out there. Instead of how can you build a skill monkey, how would you go about making a campaign for skill monkeys? Specifically would/could you make it balanced between casters and noncasters. At low levels I guess it could be a matter of frequency, after all spell casters can only cast so many times in a day. At what point though would it become purely an issue of roleplaying vs. rollplaying or would it. And any other issues with such a campaign that I can't think of. Just curious what it would look like.
Frankly, I'd just ban most of the casters. Restrict it to the "skilled" classes. Make it an urban setting with a lot of intrigue. You can't just go around killing everyone you see... at least not in a way where there are witnesses who see you. The party can work for the Thief's Guild. For the most part, they accomplish heists and other such missions for the guild and take their cut. Traps would be common but should be more than just a stupid roll-off. Complex, multi-tiered traps where having multiple PCs capable of working on it together is needed. Along with traps used in combat (3E's dungeonscape is a good resource of ideas for that). Goals should clearly be to gain something, rather than fighting. If the party can get what they want without fighting by use of stealth and scouting, misdirection, etc... it should actually be rewarded more heavily than if they just fight everything. Simplest way to do that is to make enemies so strong/dangerous that direct confrontation is something to be avoided. You may want to make it an E6* game or the like for that purpose.
*E6 or "Epic 6th" was an idea for 3E but works just as well for PF. Simply... no one advances past level 6 (or 8 if you play E8, and so forth, but 6 is the "standard"). Once you hit 6, you get more feats every several thousand xp instead, and typically you include "capstone" feats to get some class features that are just out of bounds of 6th level (like a rogue could have one to gain Imp. Uncanny Dodge). People can still gain some power, but it's slowed down drastically and hp stays the same, so low level foes in mass can still be dangerous. Higher CR monsters can still exist, but obviously are much more dangerous and in order to overcome them, a party would need opportunities to use the environment, ambush, or other factors to have a chance.
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I hate to be the stick in the mud, but I gotta say.
Poison. Not very useful.
Using poisoned weapons is pretty cool. But for some reason most poisons have at least 2 of the following problems.
- Overpriced
- Low save DCs
- Underwhelming effects.
I think the designers of 3.X felt using poison was not a very heroic thing to do, so they gimped them pretty hard, then PF simply inherited this design.
Then again, maybe there is some impressive poison that doesn't cost a small fortune nowadays. I don't know. Last time I considered using poison was when I built a Vishkanya Barbarian/Anti-Paladin about an year ago.
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I hate to be the stick in the mud, but I gotta say.
Poison. Not very useful.
Using poisoned weapons is pretty cool. But for some reason most poisons have at least 2 of the following problems.
- Overpriced
- Low save DCs
- Underwhelming effects.I think the designers of 3.X felt using poison was not a very heroic thing to do, so they gimped them pretty hard, then PF simply inherited this design.
Then again, maybe there is some impressive poison that doesn't cost a small fortune nowadays. I don't know. Last time I considered using poison was when I built a Vishkanya Barbarian/Anti-Paladin about an year ago.
Oh, I completely agree. Poison really sucks. The only time i use it is if I get it as part of my race/monster on an attack. At that point it's just a freebie chance to debuff someone whenever I attack, so even if it has little chance to do anything, it's a welcome addition.
Closest thing to a decent poison user I could think of in PF is the Poison Conversion ability Alchemists and Poisoner rogues get to make inhaled drow poison (presumably stored in breakable flasks and thrown). Or the Sticky Poison discovery for melee alchemist, which is still probably not worth the price.
I'd give Rogue/Ninjas a talent that gave them a Poison ability similar to Vishkanya's blood. Except it'd be based on Int instead of Con.
Then again, these classes are not likely to be able to afford high Int score. So who knows... Maybe make the DC 15+1/2 Rogue level? Or DC = Craft(Alchemy) bonus?
Yeah, there's a good idea hidden somewhere in there. I just can't find it.
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Well yeah, I fix a lot of paizo's mistakes with houserules. Doesn't usually help one bit when I'm a player in someone else's PF game if paizo doesn't actually change it themselves.
This is what everyone claiming "a good DM can fix it" and "Well just house rule it then" fail to appreciate.
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Everyone is forgetting that rogues should be getting the alpha strike as well as scouting combats so that casters can prepare.
Human Rogue 10
(20 point buy)
Str 22 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 7
BAB +7
Initiative: +9
Sneak Attack: +5d6
Traits: Reactionary, Killer
Rogue Talents:Minor Magic - (Ghost Sound), Major Magic - (True Strike), Powerful Sneak, Deadly Sneak
Advanced Rogue Talents:
Feats - Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative, Double Slice, Skill Focus (Stealth)
Skill Points:100
+2 Keen Scimitar (18k), +2 keen kukri (18k), Cloak of the Elvenkind(2.5k), Belt of Giant Strength +2 (4k) +21500 GP in "Other Gear"
I am the alpha strike, I start combat.
While hidden: True Strike, still hidden.
Surprise Round: Opening Attack, Power Attack 2 handing the Scrimitar +30 (1d8+20 15-20/x2, +23 sneak attack average)
Against an AC 24, that' is (.95(47.5)+(.3)(.95)(26.5))
Average Alpha Strike Damage: 52.7
Round 1, I gain initiative or target denied dex or flanking. We will call it a flat +2 to my attack for any of those to make it easy and average it out. Quick Draw my Kukri.
+15/+10 (1d8+8 15-20/x2, +23 sneak) +15/+10 (1d4+8 15-20/x2, +23 sneak)
2(.6(35.5)+.3(.6)(14.5)) = 2(21.3 +2.61)= 47.8
2(.35(35.5)+.3(.35)(14.5)) = 2(12.425+1.5225) = 27.9
Average Round 1 Damage = 75.7
Oh, and PS. That first attack could be a trip at a whopping +20, they either stay on the ground or I get an attack of opportunity and they waste their first turn anyway.
Also, I have 100 skill points to max out 10 skills and an amazing Stealth (+27) at level 10... and that's not even completely maximized.
What do I sacrfice? AC and a little HP and a little damage and the easy play of "I charge da monsta!!!!"
What do I gain? Trap detection and amazing skill power.
This was actually a 20 point build all along, I just wrote 25 point down.
Edit: Also, why does everyone go weapon finess? It sucks.
Making the katana finessable would also be a nice addition for rogues. Give me a finessable agile katana, wielded in 2 hands with 18 base Dex and I'd be a happy camper, errr ninja.
Instead I have to waste a feat to get proficiency with the Elven Curved Blade or play a race I don't want to play.
Oh God in Heaven, no. Never. Katanas are basically crap, at least until modern metal was invented and the Japanese got ahold of it. Please do us all a favor and stay the heck away from cliches, they suck!
I just find it odd that someone can't sneack up and assassinate someone for more damage than someone else hitting them with a sword in the face.
That's because the game doesn't like the idea of coup de grace simply because your opponent doesn't know it's coming. In reality, it's different. You can slit someone's throat and watch them die, and THAT is a coup de grace if ever I heard of one.
Me, I give anyone who knows backstab a coup de grace if they can spend the entire round unnoticed by the target. Very lethal, mind you.
Oh, and on that blade, be sure to apply a poison that does Con damage. Penalizes Fort saves if they fail, so they are easily the most lethal poison type out there.
Actually that wouldn't help out rogues as much as the classes that turn invisible. Die no save(well, I guess you can roll a 20) because someone has greater invisibility?
Everyone is forgetting that rogues should be getting the alpha strike as well as scouting combats so that casters can prepare.
** spoiler omitted **
This was actually a 20 point build all along, I just wrote 25 point down.
Edit: Also, why...
True Strike is once per day IIRC, and if you do damage like that you better have a high enough AC and hit points to survive the counter attack. That 10 con is not helping, and neither is the low for save.
True Strike is once per day IIRC, and if you do damage like that you better have a high enough AC and hit points to survive the counter attack. That 10 con is not helping, and neither is the low for save.Everyone is forgetting that rogues should be getting the alpha strike as well as scouting combats so that casters can prepare.
** spoiler omitted **
This was actually a 20 point build all along, I just wrote 25 point down.
Edit: Also, why...
True Strike is actually 2x per day.
Also, it's a trade off. It's not perfect, but it is useful and fun. Maybe you ventriloquism someone saying "help me" out a window and then +20 bullrush the guard that goes to look all the way to his death. It's called fun. If you aren't smart, don't play a rogue.
I'm getting tired of saying this, but rogues are all about the alpha strike. They are about landing blows on targets and hopefully getting them to go on the defensive and using tactics. They are about setting up battlfields, leading enemies away from groups and into traps (maybe even setting off an enemies own trap when they get near it and dodging it himself!)
If you want to fill in the gaps, then multiclass. Or buy a wand of greater invisibility or a ring of invisibility.
Or, play a fighter who can take damage, deal damage, and tank.... but has crap skills and always falls in the green slime.
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This thread was basically beaten to death before I even noticed it, but I'll add this: the very concept of a dedicated "skill monkey" sucks.
You know all that sitting around and doing nothing that the skill monkey gets to do during combat? Well, that's what he's going to expect everyone else at the table to be doing out of combat just so he has a chance to play.
Making a character that has a smattering of good skill bonuses in addition to combat utility is a great idea, but making a character that is better than everyone else at the table in all skills is a pretty quick route to having most of the table start playing with their smartphones out of boredom.
True Strike is once per day IIRC, and if you do damage like that you better have a high enough AC and hit points to survive the counter attack. That 10 con is not helping, and neither is the low for save.Everyone is forgetting that rogues should be getting the alpha strike as well as scouting combats so that casters can prepare.
** spoiler omitted **
This was actually a 20 point build all along, I just wrote 25 point down.
Edit: Also, why...
True Strike is actually 2x per day.
Also, it's a trade off. It's not perfect, but it is useful and fun. Maybe you ventriloquism someone saying "help me" out a window and then +20 bullrush the guard that goes to look all the way to his death. It's called fun. If you aren't smart, don't play a rogue.
I'm getting tired of saying this, but rogues are all about the alpha strike. They are about landing blows on targets and hopefully getting them to go on the defensive and using tactics. They are about setting up battlfields, leading enemies away from groups and into traps (maybe even setting off an enemies own trap when they get near it and dodging it himself!)
If you want to fill in the gaps, then multiclass. Or buy a wand of greater invisibility or a ring of invisibility.
Or, play a fighter who can take damage, deal damage, and tank.... but has crap skills and always falls in the green slime.
Most people want to be consistent, and most games are not set up so that you can lead someone into a trap, especially their own trap.
How is a rogue better at leading someone away from a group than "other" classes?
PS: The "other" classes are not the fighter and barbarian class. I mean the classes with skills, such as bards or inquisitors.
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Most people want to be consistent, and most games are not set up so that you can lead someone into a trap, especially their own trap.How is a rogue better at leading someone away from a group than "other" classes?
PS: The "other" classes are not the fighter and barbarian class. I mean the classes with skills, such as bards or inquisitors.
The rogue taunts them with his weak AC and commoner level of fighting ability. The more bloodthirsty enemies will see this as an opportunity for an easy kill.
What they do not know in that your party wizard is standing a few feet away and invisible. When you die the wizard can use your body to make a useful undead after he kills the enemies that were following you.
Most people want to be consistent, and most games are not set up so that you can lead someone into a trap, especially their own trap.How is a rogue better at leading someone away from a group than "other" classes?
PS: The "other" classes are not the fighter and barbarian class. I mean the classes with skills, such as bards or inquisitors.
If you spot a trap in a room and you know that it throws out a bunch of fire... then of course you could wait til someone pops by and deliberately set it off, almost sure to avoid it with your reflex save.
Why do they need to be better at it than other classes? A Fighter, barbarian, Battle cleric, wizard... all of these can do damage. Is there a ...best? If there IS a best... should that prevent you from wanting to play another? Of course the answer is no, there isn't really a best... it's all just playstyle. And No.... it shouldn't prevent you from playing another class.
1st paragraph:Seems kinda risky. I don't think rogues were intended to do that anymore than a monk was.
2nd paragraph: I asked that question because you said "They are about... leading enemies away from groups..." To me that reads as they were "made to ..." or "they are intended to..."
If a class is made or intended to do something it only makes sense that they should be better at it than another class. As an example paladins are made to do hit point damage to evil things, and a smiting paladin is difficult to out DPR, when fighting something that is evil.
Now if you had said "rogues are good at...", I only would have asked you to describe how they are good at it.
1st paragraph:Seems kinda risky. I don't think rogues were intended to do that anymore than a monk was.
2nd paragraph: I asked that question because you said "They are about... leading enemies away from groups..." To me that reads as they were "made to ..." or "they are intended to..."
If a class is made or intended to do something it only makes sense that they should be better at it than another class. As an example paladins are made to do hit point damage to evil things, and a smiting paladin is difficult to out DPR, when fighting something that is evil.Now if you had said "rogues are good at...", I only would have asked you to describe how they are good at it.
Rogues are great at... I would say sneak attack, but a ninja is better. They can take 10 on UMD checks before anyone else with skill-mastery. So rogues would be good at skills right???????? Oh wait no they're not, that's a bard.
Oh they get evasion and uncanny dodge. THERE rogues are good at avoiding things like me playing one.
What was a Barbarian Created For? Killing things and being tough.
Is he the best?
NO. He's a glass Cannon that gets Mindcontrolled and aimed at his own party.
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Actually since rage lance pounce the barbarian is pretty commonly accepted as, if not the best damage very close to it. The best actual martial is the paladin because of his healing, utility, and great damage. Fighter comes in last for the martials after level 11.
I would agree with this assessment. However, it's not going to stop me from playing a barbarian sometimes... why?
Because RAAAAAWWWWRRRRR!!!!! I like the roleplay.
What was a Barbarian Created For? Killing things and being tough.
Is he the best?NO. He's a glass Cannon that gets Mindcontrolled and aimed at his own party.
ONLY SUCKY BARDARIAN FALL SAVE AM BARBARIAN CHURSH PUNY SAVE!
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Glass Cannons, now with more D12 hit dice, high CON and medium armor
Glass Cannons, now with more D12 hit dice, high CON and medium armor
Not to mention DR, Uncanny Dodge and huge bonuses to all saves.
Pounce doesn't come until level 10 and requires three rage powers. A barbarian wielding a lance for the pounce charge bonus is so meta that I have trouble picturing it.
I always saw barbarians as weaker than fighters in pathfinder. Even with splat-book love, if you only go up to 12 a barbar gets +6 strength, so a +3/+4 bonus to hit and damage. While your trusty fighter gets +4/+6 to hit and damage.
At lvl 1 the barbar is +2/+3 while the fighter is +1/+0, but the rounds of rage penalty is more felt around this time.
By lvl 4 the barbar is +2/+3 while the fighter is +1/+2. Barbar is pulling ahead, almost enough rage around this level. Although next lvl fighter catches up and needs no rage
By lvl 8 the barbar is +2/+3 while the fighter is +3/+3. Fighter has more with no limit and gets more next level
By lvl 10 the barbar gets pounce, which is nice. +2/+3 vs +4/+4 though
By lvl 11 barbar +3/+4, fighter +4/+4, still ahead
By lvl 12 barbar +3/+4, fighter +4/+6
So the barbar is only better when charging.
I dunno... IMHO, Rage Powers, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, 2 extra skill points, bonus to all saves, higher HP, better list of class skills and scaling DR are much, much better than any bonus to DPR/AC.