It seems this has come up before, see discussion:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p5kv?15-foot-cone#1
I had someone who claimed they could make a 15 foot cone that looks like this:
*XXX*
*XXX*
**X**
***O*
Note the slight offset of the caster from the start of the cone. This, of course, doesn't match up with any of the templates, but also the text contradicts the templates, as it states you choose a *corner* and the cone emanates from the corner.
It would be good to have the templates and the text actually match, or simply not have the text actually contradict the template. What is the intended use of the 15 foot cone?
The problem with the template as pictured below:
*XXX*
*XXX*
**X**
**O**
Is that either the upper right corner or upper left corner is 20' away assuming you are forced to choose a corner for the spell's origin.
I agree with you - you can't make a cone like that. However I will say that the rules on cones can be fairly confusing, so I'd suggest you have a diagram like above, as well as the rules text, to explain. As little as a year ago, I'd have thought otherwise.
I think the best visual description is that it's you, in the middle of the square, pointing one direction (towards either a side or a corner). Corner's get the right-angle template, sides get the arcing one (like above).
Edit: Oh - and I *highly* suggest leniency (if it makes sense) if someone is just trying to avoid a single square on one side, and has plenty of space to "nudge" it the other direction without hitting anything. Especially with larger cones. For instance:
**X**
*XX**
1XX**
*2*C*
*****
Definitely not RAW, to miss the #1 spot, but assuming there's nothing on the other side, it kinda makes sense that they can angle it a little to the right and miss it. Actually I'd probably reserve this for 30'+ cones, 15' is too hinky as it is.
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These were quoted in the thread mentioned above, but I think they're worth reading. Particularly the first one.
Cones can't be perfect on a square grid. Just pick one, drop it on the map so its origin point is the corner of one of the caster's squares, and that's what area the spell effects. My suggestion:
Take a deep breath, calm down, and use the diagrams, they're clearer than the text, and better show the intent of how they're supposed to work.
"Just pick one, drop it on the map so its origin point is the corner of one of the caster's squares, and that's what area the spell effects."
That does mean you can use goofy angling, like using the 'straight' cone from a side corner, or using the 'angle' cone across the front of your square, but it's easy, and giving a little slack in targeting cones I think is useful since we have no other good way of portraying the ability to aim up or otherwise finesse the area.
-edit-
I should have read the rest of my citation!
To use computer terminology, the "hot spot" of the left cone template is the lower left corner of the gray shape, near the red dot that represents the caster. The "hot spot" of the right cone is the middle of the bottom of the gray shape, which is the upper right corner of the caster/red dot square.
Cast a cone spell, pick the cone shape you want, and put the "hot spot" of the cone on one of the corners of the caster's square, and that's where the cone effect is.
Note: "The "hot spot" of the right cone is the middle of the bottom of the gray shape"
This means, to me, that the center (not corner) of that bottom square must share a side with one of your squares.
So offsetting the 'straight' cone is no good, but flopping over the diagonal cone is still OK.
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Were there to be a FAQening, I would suggest something like this:
Which of the following are legal options for 15-foot cone placement?
http://i.imgur.com/7FnroF7.jpg
A1 and A2 are examples from the book.
Is B1 legal, by placing the 'hot spot' on the top left corner?
Is B2 legal, by placing one corner of the 'hot spot' on the top left corner?
C1 and C2 are the same examples as A, only rotated 90-degrees.
The answers for D1 and D2 should match B, unless I've screwed up my picture somehow.
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Grick wrote: Were there to be a FAQening, I would suggest something like this:
Which of the following are legal options for 15-foot cone placement?
http://i.imgur.com/7FnroF7.jpg
Great diagrams. I'm a big believer in B1 and D1 - the two cones that look like 90º triangles; the caster is firing a cone at a 45º angle from her body.
B2 and D2 are... odd. They are consistent with SKR's "from any corner" definition, but if the "hot spot" is in the middle of the caster's square, not so much. Note however, putting the "hot spot" in the middle of the caster's square would also preclude A1 and C1, which are perfectly fine to me.
My problem with B2 and D2 is that they don't exactly emanate directly away from the caster. In both cases, there's a curve, a square right in front of the caster that isn't part of the cone, then one further out that is. I guess you could say the same for B1 and D1, but I'm okay writing that off to the vaguarities of diagonals. With B2 and D2, it's just to blatant for my tastes.
Grick wrote: These were quoted in the thread mentioned above, but I think they're worth reading. Particularly the first one.
Cones can't be perfect on a square grid. Just pick one, drop it on the map so its origin point is the corner of one of the caster's squares, and that's what area the spell effects. My suggestion:
Take a deep breath, calm down, and use the diagrams, they're clearer than the text, and better show the intent of how they're supposed to work.
To use computer terminology, the "hot spot" of the left cone template is the lower left corner of the gray shape, near the red dot that represents the caster. The "hot spot" of the right cone is the middle of the bottom of the gray shape, which is the upper right corner of the caster/red dot square.
Cast a cone spell, pick the cone shape you want, and put the "hot spot" of the cone on one of the corners of the caster's square, and that's where the cone effect is.
Note: "The "hot spot" of the right cone is the middle of the bottom of the gray shape"
This means, to me, that the center (not corner) of that bottom square must share a side with one of your...
Yeah, sorry, I wasn't meaning to be picky here. This is actually a question as it regards to PFS, but it's a general rules question, so posting it here made sense. We have some rules sticklers, and generally PFS is pretty strict about "rules as written", so I was looking for a clarification.
It's fine, by my estimation, to make the diagrams the official rules, so long as those diagrams are complete. My issue is that it's hard to say "no" by RAW due to the fact that this seems to be highly unclear, as supposedly the hot spot is *always* a grid intersection, yet that's not possible in the 15 foot cone case.
I approve the B's and D's
I picture it as leaning to the side of where you are standing, to aim around a corner or an ally.
On a side note, while I am ok with B/D 2, I would not let someone drop the area back, so that they would be hitting 3 adjacent square + plus a few that are further away. That's just to far "behind the cast" in my opinion.
****
XXX*
XXX*
CX**
It's a ranged attack. Like any ranged attack, you can pick the corner you're blasting from. The wizard thrusts their hands out to the left and shoots flame forward from there, and you get that.
Elven_Blades wrote: I approve the B's and D's
I picture it as leaning to the side of where you are standing, to aim around a corner or an ally.
On a side note, while I am ok with B/D 2, I would not let someone drop the area back, so that they would be hitting 3 adjacent square + plus a few that are further away. That's just to far "behind the cast" in my opinion.
****
XXX*
XXX*
CX**
But B2/D2 shouldn't be possible, RAW, given that the distance from the corner to the upper left is 20. Granted, that also goes for A2/C2, but at least in that case, it would be possible to use either of the source corners as the origin (albeit not both).
My two cents: I think a 15' cone should affect 6 squares. A2 and B2 should have 2 squares in the second row, not 3. Is that based in the rules? Probably not.
tivadar27 wrote: But B2/D2 shouldn't be possible, RAW, given that the distance from the corner to the upper left is 20. Granted, that also goes for A2/C2, but at least in that case, it would be possible to use either of the source corners as the origin (albeit not both). I think you are supposed to count squares on the 15' cone, not corners. While you are right that near corner to far corner would be 20', its only 15' if you go by squares traveled. The first single square is the first 5' (obviously), and the 2 rows of 3 are 10 and 15 respectively. Outer corners are only 1 diagonal away from the center line, so the second diagonal is 10' rule does not apply.
It is easier with the straight line 15' cone to consider it as emanating from a line on the grid, not a corner. It's a little abstract, but it's the only way it makes sense according to the diagrams in the book.
Edit: I think part of why the 15' straight cone is the way it is, would be because it would be 25% more powerful than the diagonal cone if it followed the shape of larger cones (affecting 8 squares instead of 6). So it seams to just be a balance issue.
I had one of my GM's make templates of all the cones, burst, etc.It cleared up the confusion because you could place the template and rotate it so everyone would know what area was covered.
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This is why I like Hexgrids.
Elven_Blades wrote: tivadar27 wrote: But B2/D2 shouldn't be possible, RAW, given that the distance from the corner to the upper left is 20. Granted, that also goes for A2/C2, but at least in that case, it would be possible to use either of the source corners as the origin (albeit not both). I think you are supposed to count squares on the 15' cone, not corners. While you are right that near corner to far corner would be 20', its only 15' if you go by squares traveled. The first single square is the first 5' (obviously), and the 2 rows of 3 are 10 and 15 respectively. Outer corners are only 1 diagonal away from the center line, so the second diagonal is 10' rule does not apply.
It is easier with the straight line 15' cone to consider it as emanating from a line on the grid, not a corner. It's a little abstract, but it's the only way it makes sense according to the diagrams in the book.
Edit: I think part of why the 15' straight cone is the way it is, would be because it would be 25% more powerful than the diagonal cone if it followed the shape of larger cones (affecting 8 squares instead of 6). So it seams to just be a balance issue. That's a good idea, but RAW says explicitly otherwise:
"The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell."
You know, perhaps a better way to do this (for a cone) would be to say the following:
1) Pick a direction:
1A) If the direction is a diagonal, draw horizontal/vertical lines from that corner away from you (the source).
1B) If the direction is along the axis, draw diagonal lines outward from either corner of that axis away from you (the source).
2) The area of effect for a cone is any space reachable by standard distance rules walking from the source that is completely contained within those lines.
That handles the 15 footer perfectly, and the only thing it kills is the larger cones going directly out, for example, the 30' cone straight out goes from:
***CC***
***XX***
**XXXX**
*XXXXXX*
XXXXXXXX
*XXXXXX*
***XX***
to:
****C****
****X****
***XXX***
**XXXXX**
*XXXXXXX*
*XXXXXXX*
***XXX***
Slightly less squares, 28 to 26, but still pretty close, and makes a heck of a lot more sense than what's there now (or at least, it's consistent!)
this came up last night during play ... here was the layout
-- -- -- 1,2,3 being sailors, 4 being a monk, and 5 was me.
1 2 3 I wanted to take a 5-step back in an attempt to hit
1 5 -- all 4 with a wand of color spray. In the end the two
-- -- -- cone templates were used as hard ruling and this was
was the result...
-- -- -- My cone hit 1, 2, 4, and air behind them...
1 2 3
4 -- --
5 -- --
from some of your interpretations, would there have been anyway to have
actually achieved by goal of hitting all 4?
Ar'ruum wrote: from some of your interpretations, would there have been anyway to have actually achieved by goal of hitting all 4? If the 'hot spot' of the straight cone is either bottom corner (rather than the center), and if that hotspot can attach to any of your corners, and if there's nothing preventing you from firing in any direction (rather than always away from you), then yes.
Take a 5' step diagonally away from 1. Fire the straight cone aimed upward, with the bottom-right hotspot originating from your bottom left corner.
It will hit the empty square to your left, the three squares above it (4 and the two empty squares to his right), and the three squares above that (1, 2, and 3).
O O O
1 2 3
4 X X
O X 5
(Cone hitting all the X's, and 1234, missing the O's.)
That placement is way more of a stretch than the OP (my example B2) and I would be really astonished if anyone allowed it. It doesn't really match SKR's 'middle of the bottom' hotspot, nor the rule text, so it probably wouldn't fly. (Neither would B2, really, but who knows)
right ... in the end they all saved against the color spray attack, so it really ended up being a moot point... but it's good to know.
I would just like to point out that the second 15' cone and one of the 30' lines is "inaccurate" compared to their description and when placed inside a burst.
A 15' cone should fit inside a 15' radius burst (since a cone is listed as a quarter circle) and ALL of the cone diagrams fit inside a burst like this EXCEPT for the second 15' cone pictured on the page.
Likewise, the second 30' line pictured doesn't fit inside a 30' radius burst like the other lines do (and should be 35'). Kind of odd if a 30' radius burst at a specific spot can't hit someone but a 30' line originating from the exact same spot CAN hit them. The other 30' lines can't do that.
I have a very handy Excel spreadsheet that has a radius burst diagram for 10' to 60' with two cones (straight and diagonal) and at least one line shaded inside them. Makes combat with area effects a snap to run.
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