| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
My gm declared that a featherfall spell for a drop under 60 ft requires a DC 15 wisdom check to function.
For bards, who often use wisdom as a dump stat, I think this makes the spell untenable.
He claimed this was an Eberron rule; but is it really?
Yar!
I did a quick little search for "Eberron" "Featherfall" and "Wisdom", and I found the below quote under "Sharn Architecture" from a wikidot site. I have no idea if it is canon or simply a house rule by that particular GM.
The city offers a standard reward of 25 gp to a spellcaster who casts feather fall on a falling person. ... A popular magic item among those that can afford one, a feather fall talisman is a single-use item containing a feather fall spell. The trick to using this item is timing. Because it works only once and lasts for a single round, it must be activated within 60 feet of the ground in order to protect its wearer from falling damage. Since falls in Sharn can involve heights of a mile or more, this is not always easy to accomplish.
A DC 10 Wisdom check can be used to determine if a character successfully times activation.
This (wisdom check) is only for someone using this single-use 1 round duration item at the end of an extreme distance fall.
EDIT: reread and clarified some text. Also, this seems to be the opposite of what your GM is declaring (wisdom check for falls less than 60', when here it is for falls significantly greater than 60' when using a 1 round duration single-use item to save yourself at the end of it). o_O
~P
Surprise, pulled out of his behind house rules… Got to love those. Whether it was to further the story or because he was just being a dick, your GM hosed you. Either way, he should have warned you about his crazy idea way before it came up in a desperate situation.
Yeah, we weren't even playing Eberron anyway, but he still believes this is a rule. I don't think he's trying to be a jerk. I'll talk to him.
-it did kill a character, this ruling, so...
Oh, and he WAS referencing that rule Mr. Pirate mentioned. He upped the Wis dc. I got a 12.
We were in Golarion. Hanging from a rope bridge.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Falling: "A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level."
Feather fall does not require a concentration check to cast if cast while falling.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Yeah... that character should NOT have died. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, which means that casting it does not require any movements or spell components whatsoever, you basically just say "feather fall" and it happens. If you were silenced for any reason, that's another matter.
Rough.
Even if I were running 3.5 Eberron, I'd probably allow PCs to willingly set the feather fall item off early for guaranteed, but low, damage.
I can see a character wanting to time his feather fall so he doesn't take any damage at all -- but if you time it wrong, you're going to take the damage of terminal velocity. I think I'd rather play it safe and set the effect off early -- even if that meant that the spell expired when I was still fifty feet off the ground. Five dice of damage is better than risking it and taking twenty.
Even that is if the rule is worth keeping in any form at all; players can accept death more easily if they choose the dangerous path. I certainly understand the temptation as a GM -- the possibility of falling down skyscrapers is thrilling -- but I don't like dead characters, and maximum falling distance can kill characters for a loooooong time. You could die from a kobold's bull rush.
Yes. The item. But this was the spell. The spell itself. However, nice to know about the token, because it requires activation beyond mental realization of falling and the time to speak.
(edit)
Even if you had used the item in question, no Wisdom check would be needed in your situation. Since the fall is 60 ft or less, there's no timing issue. You would have simply activated it immediately, and that would be that.
The only purpose of the Wisdom check for the item is to time the activation properly for falls greater than 60 ft, since the item only works for a period of 60 ft. So in order to prevent damage entirely, you have to time the activation to within the last 60 ft of the fall.
Even if the Wisdom check was to be applied to the feather fall spell in general (for long falls), the check should have a lower DC rather than a higher DC, since the spell lasts longer than the item. So you'd have a better chance at timing it correctly for long falls.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Falling: "A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level."
Feather fall does not require a concentration check to cast if cast while falling.
My gm does not believe you. As a reward for arguing with him, he now says that instead of a wisdom check, a character has to succeed at a DC 21 concentration check.
Can I please get a link to where he says this?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=479?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#23942
If you clicked on the name in Grick's post, you should have been taken there.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Can I please get a link to where he says this?
The links are in there already... Falling and James Jacobs' post
If your GM is now punishing you guys for pointing out a rule that he had wrong, then he's being completely unreasonable and you shouldn't play with him anymore, honestly.
He's now seen the post, and he says JJ has no rules grounds to stand on, and that per RAW, one has to make that check.
I would quit, but the game was fun before this and the gm is my live-in bf.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
He's now seen the post, and he says JJ has no rules grounds to stand on, and that per RAW, one has to make that check.
I would quit, but the game was fun before this and the gm is my live-in bf.
But... the... rules. They're right there. Immediate action spells don't require concentration checks. Period. Your GM/BF is being an a$$.
I guess that's that then. The book says what it says. He sure showed that Paizo staffer, didn't he? Trying to disagree with the book they wrote. Hrmph.
He's now seen the post, and he says JJ has no rules grounds to stand on, and that per RAW, one has to make that check.
I would quit, but the game was fun before this and the gm is my live-in bf.
Our little boy is four years old
and quite a little man.So we spell out the words
we don't want him to understand.
Like t-o-y, or maybe s-u-r-p-r-i-s-e
but the words were hiding from him now
tears the heart right out of me...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have to agree with cartmanbeck. The GM is being an overbearing house ruler and is punitive to boot.
Maybe a side talk is in order here.
Actually, we discovered something funny. One cannot cast featherfall on themselves when caught by a trap and falling anyway! According to RAW, ff characters can't take an immediate action! And the wording makes it seem that the spell can only be cast on other characters already falling.
._______. Can I find the writers of this spell and shake them up a bit?
>..c o..<
|
Actually, we discovered something funny. One cannot cast featherfall on themselves when caught by a trap and falling anyway! According to RAW, ff characters can't take an immediate action! And the wording makes it seem that the spell can only be cast on other characters already falling.
._______. Can I find the writers of this spell and shake them up a bit?
>..c o..<
Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
Except if you're flat-footed. It's a hilarious loophole.
Also the falling text indicated that the only spells one could cast PERIOD while falling are immediate actions, and thus only those could be cast making the concentration check, from what he could tell.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed. If there is not a combat, you are not flat-footed.
Maybe that reasoning is twinky, but if we're trying to loophole a spell into being unable to do what it does, then I don't see anything wrong with a little turnabout to loophole it right back.
Actually, we discovered something funny. One cannot cast featherfall on themselves when caught by a trap and falling anyway! According to RAW, ff characters can't take an immediate action! And the wording makes it seem that the spell can only be cast on other characters already falling.
"A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall."
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html#falling
It cannot be any clearer. Your GM/BF is wrong. There's no getting around that. The whole POINT of the spell is to survive a fall...
He should just man up and admit he "is wrong but is unwilling to take it back." Some gm's don't like to fess up to mistakes. It happens. Learn from it and move on or boot him in the baws and tell him to stick his silly game where the sun disnae shine! :P
Actually, we discovered something funny. One cannot cast featherfall on themselves when caught by a trap and falling anyway! According to RAW, ff characters can't take an immediate action! And the wording makes it seem that the spell can only be cast on other characters already falling.
._______. Can I find the writers of this spell and shake them up a bit?
>..c o..<
I can't find any rules that indicate that the target of a trap should be considered flat footed. Feather fall explicitly says that you can cast it to save yourself from falling, and that should resolve the issue.
I suspect this guy is using this as a passive-aggressive way to punish you for unresolved tension in your relationship. Refer him to Wil Wheaton's law: "Don't be a dick."
We're probably going to come up with a houserule for this anyway, because the writing is convoluted, and JJ isn't standing on any RAW rules. It's not that it's discounted entirely, it's just RAI instead of RAW. a search about this on Paizo indicates that this isn't the only thread of its kind, and there's never any real resolution.
I think we need to petition for an errata. Like, an OFFICIAL errata with the rulies in it. Anyone with me? Let's stop this atrocity from ever happening again. >:) Because I keep poisoning the wrong salad bowl.
/runsofftothebathroomkthx
Um, it already is supported by the rules quite clearly the you can cast feather fall while falling as has been pointed out. Check the Enviromental Rules for falling and fall damage.
And I quote:
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.
JJ, the creative director, merely clarified that the concentration check only applies to non-immediate actions since as it reads it applies to all spells cast while falling. There was a big thread on the subject back 3-4 months ago.
So RAW, you can cast feather fall while falling since it explicitly says you can cast immediate action spells while falling. And the CREATIVE DIRECTOR says that it's inteneded only to apply to non-immediate spells. What more do you need?
|
Cut him off...he'll change his mind lolHe's now seen the post, and he says JJ has no rules grounds to stand on, and that per RAW, one has to make that check.
I would quit, but the game was fun before this and the gm is my live-in bf.Have you considered less.... conventional methods?
Like maybe poisoning his food and witholding the antidote until he agrees to be a fair GM?
Are we using the term "witholding the antidote" as a euphemism or something? Like "I forgot our anniversary now my wife is withholding the antidote"?
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Are we using the term "witholding the antidote" as a euphemism or something? Like "I forgot our anniversary now my wife is withholding the antidote"?Cut him off...he'll change his mind lolHe's now seen the post, and he says JJ has no rules grounds to stand on, and that per RAW, one has to make that check.
I would quit, but the game was fun before this and the gm is my live-in bf.Have you considered less.... conventional methods?
Like maybe poisoning his food and witholding the antidote until he agrees to be a fair GM?
LOL. Well-played, wolf. My wife withholds the "antidote" for much less important things than anniversaries. "What? You didn't read my mind and bring me a soda when you were downstairs even though you didn't go anywhere near the refrigerator? NO ANTIDOTE FOR YOU!" :-P
|
|
LOL. Well-played, wolf. My wife withholds the "antidote" for much less important things than anniversaries. "What? You didn't read my mind and bring me a soda when you were downstairs even though you didn't go anywhere near the refrigerator? NO ANTIDOTE FOR YOU!" :-PAre we using the term "witholding the antidote" as a euphemism or something? Like "I forgot our anniversary now my wife is withholding the antidote"?Cut him off...he'll change his mind lolHe's now seen the post, and he says JJ has no rules grounds to stand on, and that per RAW, one has to make that check.
I would quit, but the game was fun before this and the gm is my live-in bf.Have you considered less.... conventional methods?
Like maybe poisoning his food and witholding the antidote until he agrees to be a fair GM?
Yeah we may be GMs at the game table but the wife/gf is the GM where it counts!
He's now seen the post, and he says JJ has no rules grounds to stand on, and that per RAW, one has to make that check.
I would quit, but the game was fun before this and the gm is my live-in bf.
So your live in boyfriend is digging in his heels and being a dick because he was proved wrong in an argument over game rules? Clearly this is a man who does not know on which side his bread is buttered. Seriously, he's spoiling for a fight with his girlfriend over being wrong with game rules. And that's not a good omen.
|
|
So your live in boyfriend is digging in his heels and being a dick because he was proved wrong in an argument over game rules? Clearly this is a man who does not know on which side is bread is buttered. Seriously, he's spoiling for a fight with his girlfriend over being wrong with game rules. And that's not a good omen.He's now seen the post, and he says JJ has no rules grounds to stand on, and that per RAW, one has to make that check.
I would quit, but the game was fun before this and the gm is my live-in bf.
Yeah he is calling for a DC 21 concentration check to cast Feather Fall during a fall. She is going to be asking for a DC 500 apologize and beg check before he gets to sleep somewhere other than the couch for a while.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yep, I and my significant other have GMed for each other before. We've come to terms on spirituality, family, honesty, and politics; but good lord, roll out the fine points of stealth rules or readied actions and watch the fight begin.
|
|
Um, it already is supported by the rules quite clearly the you can cast feather fall while falling as has been pointed out. Check the Enviromental Rules for falling and fall damage.
And I quote:
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.JJ, the creative director, merely clarified that the concentration check only applies to non-immediate actions since as it reads it applies to all spells cast while falling. There was a big thread on the subject back 3-4 months ago.
So RAW, you can cast feather fall while falling since it explicitly says you can cast immediate action spells while falling. And the CREATIVE DIRECTOR says that it's inteneded only to apply to non-immediate spells. What more do you need?
Just to clarify, even though this paragraph is confusingly written, the concentration check is for spells cast after 500-feet; they can't be cast at all before 500-feet!
But immediate action spells are a different kettle of fish; they can be cast at any time during a fall.
You don't even have to cast feather fall as soon as you start to fall! You might want to do this if the fall distance is greater than your level x 60-ft, or if you'd take missile fire if you fell slowly for several rounds, or just to reach the ground more quickly while still landing safely.
If you want to 'HALO' in to an area from above (very cool!), I suggest a Perception check (if the ground or some other visible point of reference can be seen) DC10 (which is a wisdom check if tried untrained), with the DC being lowered by 2 for each full 60-feet from the ground the caster intends for the spell to take effect. Failure means a 50/50 chance of it being cast 1d20-feet too early or too late (if the die would make it cast before the fall starts then it is cast as the fall begins. If the spell would be cast after he would land then he takes full falling damage and has to watch ten Road Runner cartoons if he survives). This is an expansion of that DC 10 wisdom check from those Sharn rules. I suspect those rules were meant to apply to observers trying to save other people as those people are falling; some kind of check seems appropriate for that kind of 3rd party rescue.
In the end, the spell feather fall has been around for over 35 years, while those environmental rules a lot less. Seriously, does he really think that the devs want feather fall not to work?
As mentioned, technically speaking Flat-Footed only applies to those who've not yet had their first turn in the initiative order. If you're not in combat (i.e. initiative is not currently counting down) then no-one is flat-footed! Strange, but true! This means that the fact that immediate actions cannot be taken while flat-footed isn't relevant.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The rule reads that you can cast only immediately action spells if falling less than 500 feet. If falling more than 500 feet, you can cast other spells. If you are casting a spell then you make a concentration check. The concentration check doesn't distinguish between immediate spells or other spells. By RAW, feather fall by a falling character requires a concentration check.
The Eberron rule regarding a wisdom check is a 3.5 rule given for a particular circumstance, namely falling a great distance. It isn't RAW, and even if a gaming group decides to use it as a house rule, and it isn't a horrid idea, it doesn't apply to the circumstance.
JJ isn't one of the rule writers. He is the Creative Director. He does us the favor of answering many questions, but acknowledges that he isn't an expert on the rules, sometimes gets things wrong, and provides his posts from the perspective of how he would rule it in his game. Despite all those disclaimers, his word carries a certain amount of weight. How much that weight is treated as authority varies from group to group. Personally, I ignore him when he's flat out wrong. When it's a grey case, I expect his word to be taken as a standard by people I don't game with regularly, and often now to that position as a matter of go-along-to-get-along.
The purpose of feather fall may be to avoid falling damage, but by RAW it isn't automatic. There's lots of stuff like that. Personally, I think it should just work, but that's merely my opinion. Posting a FAQ request is the way to get JJ's opinion codified by a higher authority. If doing so, it's best to post on a separate thread, and it seems like the board is most active on Mondays; that's your best shot.
Character death sucks. It's a necessary part of the game, but it's worse when it's due to a screwy area like this.