These items may be intended to show that there are several ways of doing the same thing, but I find them kind of odd.
tl;dr: Is the Heavyload Belt overpriced (2kgp), the Muleback Chords underpriced (1kgp), or is this just a quirk of the system?
(I guess their effects might stack; neither is a named bonus. OTOH, I can't imagine most DMs would allow it.)
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Muleback Chords allows someone to consider their carrying capacity as if their strength were +8.
Heavyload Belt has a permanent Ant Haul effect; which allows someone to triple their carrying capacity.
The difference between these are insignificant at strength 4 or higher.
(strength 4 w/ muleback: 43lbs light, 86 medium, 130 heavy; w/ heavyload: 39 light, 78 medium, 120 heavy. Strength 10 w/ muleback: 100/200/300; w/ heavyload 99/198/300. strength 18: 306/613/920 v 300/600/900. Str 29: 384/2772/4160 v 1398/2799/4200)
The thing is, these items have vastly different costs (1kgp for the Chords, v 2kgp for the Belt). Sorcerers and Oracles who don't know Bull's Strength (the requirement for the Chords) and your Wondrous Item crafting Rangers (?!?!?) are the only ones who might ever make the belt; For everyone else, the chords are cheaper.
I cannot imagine a GM disallowing the Buffing of your carrying capacity. I can't really think of a less important number on your character sheet (I'm just going to lump all skills together).
Back on track I'd almost expect the belt to be the cheaper of the two options as it takes up the physical attribute buffing slot.
I'd let them stack. Just like I'd let a casting of ant haul stack with a belt of giant strength or bull's strength.
(I'd even consider letting a character stack ant haul, muleback cords, and a belt of giant strength.)
But on the main thing, yeah, they probably should have about the same price (by same effect), or approximately reversed prices (by slot affinity), rather than the ones they have.
Bull's Strength does not increase carrying capacity.
It is one of the reasons spells like Ant Haul exist.
A Belt of Giant Strength does increase carrying capacity, but only after being worn 24 hours.
Muleback Chords and Heavyload Belt stack, because they alter carrying capacity in a different way.
So is there any real reason for the cost difference other than flavor? I am unclear that this has been answered.
Heavyload Belt can have a much greater, or less effect, depending on who is wearing it.
Slap it on a Mastodon, and it's effects are much more profound than Muleback Cords.
I'd still prefer the handy haversack :)
Handy Haversack!
A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and [/b]can actually hold[/b] material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large [/b]central portion[/b] of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.
While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.
Haversack doesn't do anything when the PCs discover the 800lbs golden statue.
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blackbloodtroll wrote: Haversack doesn't do anything when the PCs discover the 800lbs golden statue. Sure it can.
One arm goes in the first side pouch (20 pounds), other arm goes in the other side pouch (20 lbs). Head goes in the main pouch (80 lbs).
That's 120lbs of gold. Now, you just need six other friends with haversacks to put the rest of the statue parts in. :)
mdt wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: Haversack doesn't do anything when the PCs discover the 800lbs golden statue. Sure it can.
One arm goes in the first side pouch (20 pounds), other arm goes in the other side pouch (20 lbs). Head goes in the main pouch (80 lbs).
That's 120lbs of gold. Now, you just need six other friends with haversacks to put the rest of the statue parts in. :) You're going to cut up the statue?
But, but, IT'S A WORK OF ART! Don't cut it up.
RadiantSophia wrote: mdt wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: Haversack doesn't do anything when the PCs discover the 800lbs golden statue. Sure it can.
One arm goes in the first side pouch (20 pounds), other arm goes in the other side pouch (20 lbs). Head goes in the main pouch (80 lbs).
That's 120lbs of gold. Now, you just need six other friends with haversacks to put the rest of the statue parts in. :) You're going to cut up the statue?
But, but, IT'S A WORK OF ART! Don't cut it up. Relax, the cleric has Make Whole.
Grind up the statue and snort it up for a Commune spell. For real!
Meh, just have the druid with an insanely high strength score to wild shape into a large Ape and carry it around like an '80's kid with his boombox....
(I actually did that with my level 11 melee Ape Shaman/Ranger in a PFS scenario when I changed into a large ape and carried a stone back to HQ since noone had the requisite skills to do our faction mission +1 for outside the box thinking)
blackbloodtroll wrote: Bull's Strength does not increase carrying capacity.
It is one of the reasons spells like Ant Haul exist.
A Belt of Giant Strength does increase carrying capacity, but only after being worn 24 hours.
Muleback Chords and Heavyload Belt stack, because they alter carrying capacity in a different way.
False, http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/bullSStrength.html#_bull-s-streng th
It increases all Str related functions. It says nothing about not affecting carrying capacity. You are confusing how spellcasting isn't boosted by Owl's wisdom?
Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength).
Nothing else.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength).
Nothing else.
By your logic a penalty to strength wouldn't hurt your carrying capacity....
Temporary Penalties wouldn't. A STR Drain/Damage penalty would.
Shfish wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength).
Nothing else.
By your logic a penalty to strength wouldn't hurt your carrying capacity.... For temporary penalties, yes, that's true.
It's not like anyone will wear Heavyload Belt, with it being a belt. That's for a more precious stat-boosting item. Even spellcasters would want to increase their Con or Dex.
Just to be clear, I'm not happy about that because I hate it when cool items like a large number of magic cloaks will not be used because of the 'must-have' items, since you'll be failing a lot of saves without that Cloak of Resistance +5 or not be a very good Fighter without that Belt of Str +6...
blackbloodtroll wrote: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength).
Nothing else.
Not according to Bull's Str:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/bullSStrength.html#_bull-s-streng th
"the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier."
Strength mod used in carrying capacity thus is affected.
"Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense."
Toadkiller Dog wrote: It's not like anyone will wear Heavyload Belt, with it being a belt. That's for a more precious stat-boosting item. Even spellcasters would want to increase their Con or Dex.
Just to be clear, I'm not happy about that because I hate it when cool items like a large number of magic cloaks will not be used because of the 'must-have' items, since you'll be failing a lot of saves without that Cloak of Resistance +5 or not be a very good Fighter without that Belt of Str +6...
This is why key items like Belts of Stat or Headbands of Stat or Cloaks of Resistance or Amulets of Natural Armor or Rings of Protection shouldn't count towards the number of powers an item has.
That would also solve the problem of Melees getting taxed for needing more than one physical stat >_>
The Belts and Headbands aren't actually needed. It is an Illusion born of Powergaming & Metagaming.
I have a Fighter who gets by just fine without the Stat Boosters.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Heavyload Belt can have a much greater, or less effect, depending on who is wearing it.
Slap it on a Mastodon, and it's effects are much more profound than Muleback Cords.
Actually, no. It isn't more profound. Which is exactly my point. Modulo some rounding errors, the difference isn't significant until a theoretical strength in the hundreds. A +8 strength has the effect of multiplying the carrying capacity by 3.0314... .
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Math 1)
Pure numbers:
Adding 10 to strength increases carrying capacity by a factor of 4.
4^(1/10) = 1.14698... . (1.14698...)^8 = 3.0314.... .
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Math 2)
More concretely:
Mastadons have Str 34 and are Huge quadrupeds. We will ignore the missing slot issue (I don't think quadrupeds get chest slots, but whatever).
A medium bipeds at str 34 has a light carrying capacity of 933lbs and a max of 2800lbs.
A huge quadruped multiplies that by 6. So the Mastadon's base capacity is 5600 light and max 16800.
A Mastadon with a Heavyload Belt (3x) would be able to carry 16800 light and 50400 max.
A Mastadon with the muleback cords would calculate their carrying capacity as if their strength were 42. Or light of 6 * 2768 = 16608 lbs, and a max of 49824 lbs. A difference of 1%.
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If you absolutely, positively need to carry EXACTLY 25 tonnes, you'll need the belt. For almost any other purpose, they are identical.
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Starbuck_II wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength).
Nothing else.
Not according to Bull's Str:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/bullSStrength.html#_bull-s-streng th
"the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier."
Strength mod used in carrying capacity thus is affected.
Just so this isn't misused. Temporary Ability = Permanent Ability.
Recently the Pathfinder Design Team clarified the confusion in the description of temporary ability changes.
Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Pathfinder Design Team wrote: Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/29/13
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